Fencing stolen goods.

NaffNaffBobFace

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I was reading Reebournes thread on having a second baddie account and it got me thinking about those Looting mechanics again...

Preamble:

Reebourne was talking about having a second account to be the baddie while having his main remain law abiding, however it got me on a line of thought:

Having two accounts might get around my issue with things being stolen off me in player loot mechanics etc...

Example: My Main, NaffNaffBobFace contains all my subscriber loot etc I don't want to loose, but by using it I loose it to other players.

So I make NaffNaffRobFace, my original 'Bob account becomes my Banker and the new 'Rob becomes my actual play account. I log in to 'Bob Banker, take some assets I don't want to loose to some distant part of some distant moon and leave them there. I then log in with 'Rob Player, go to that place and pick up the goods.

Once I have done that, I play as 'Rob until I am robbed. At that point, I go commit a minor crime like loitering, get apprehended by the AI Law and all my missing toys get sent back to 'Bob as it was 'Rob who stole them...

...that would work as long as the player who took your Ashfall Grenade Launcher doesn't have to be the one who is apprehended with it on them...

...the loot mechanic is going to become Pass The Parcel otherwise and again will be exploitable for fencing.

Say for example Meenie McBadbum steals your gear. They pass it to another player/account and sell that item for 120,000 UEC. That player with the stolen goods is then apprehended and punished for having your stuff and Meenie McBadbum and however many other people in the Fencing chain get the pay-day and an incentive to keep offing players for their toys, victims keep being targeted for their rare loot and buyers keep losing their stuff and their UEC...

The meat and potatoes:

And that is how I got on to this thought - Stealing goods off people and having a network of fencers then selling the goods on for high prices to unsuspecting rubes could well be a thing with the new mechanics... and from what I can see, there would be no consequence for anyone except the original victim and the person sold the item.

The original victim looses the item for the duration of time it is transiting to its new owner and while they are using it. When they finally are apprehended by the law or tracked down by the original user, they loose the item back to the original victim and have lost the ammount of UEC they paid for it.

It will probably kill the in-game player-to-player economy of someone having fought hard to get an item then wanting to sell or even just gift it to another player... unless a register of stolen serial numbers is made and accessible to all players or even highlights items as stolen?

I just feel like I have not thought this out fully and would appreciate discussion on this - I don't want to be the one running a Fencing network but it just seems obvious that one can be set up using the mechanics as they appear to be intended to be.

Two words: Buyer beware!
 
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Bambooza

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So this is all based upon the assumption that items only exist once in the verse and thus the only way to get back your sub fare is to have it found and returned. Which does nothing for the cases where items are lost when bases and ships are blown up and objects in these locations are destroyed nor does it deal with the situation where they have talked about physicalized items left in the world outside of a player-owned hab/ship will be cleaned up after x amount of time.

While it's still unknown how CIG intended to handle unique player account-bound items (I personally feel they will go with special kiosks located in the verse where you can repurchase lost items) there is far more information available on their intentions for dealing in stolen and illegal goods. They already have quantum interceptions and police stops and scans in space and it's intended for these same scans to be performed in the stations so moving stolen goods is going to be difficult. There are already several ships with compartments intended to block scanning and mentioned of scan-proof cargo containers as well as hidden ways into some stations.

So yes in theory it would be possible to have your alt steal from your main but what's the point? In fact, it's this behavior (not necessarily alts stealing from main but friends attempting to scam the system) that is what they are attempting to address. This is easily countered by making the item need to be repurchased or found and returned. I would go so far as to say the unique account-bound items are given to you once for free and gives you the ability to buy it in the game which is limited to those with the account-bound item. Thus if I don't have the gold armor due to not being a space Marshal the only way I can get one is by stealing it from one who has it or buying it from a fence. If I have the gold armor and I get killed or it's stolen from me I can either wait for it to be found and returned or go buy another set from a specialty kiosk/vendor.

But this attempting to hide your account-bound items on an alt seems overly complex and for what purpose? Either way, you are not using it and so why have it to start with?
 

Montoya

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While it's still unknown how CIG intended to handle unique player account-bound items
I think this one is pretty easy to guess.

If you lost your gold plated concierge sniper rifle, there will be a kiosk where you can reclaim it, much like a ship.

Making people pay to get back an item they paid real money for makes the item useless, for me anyway.

Im not going to bother ever wearing some unique or rare item if it means I have to pay some fee to get it back every time I lose it.

The bigger question is on the other side of this. If you took my gold plated sniper rifle off my body, and I reclaim it and get another. Now there are two of this item. If you now go get this second one off me, then three. Will this gold sniper rifle keep on getting replicated every time I go claim one?

This leads me to believe that some items will simply not be lootable.
 

Vavrik

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This is easily countered by making the item need to be repurchased or found and returned. I would go so far as to say the unique account-bound items are given to you once for free and gives you the ability to buy it in the game which is limited to those with the account-bound item. Thus if I don't have the gold armor due to not being a space Marshal the only way I can get one is by stealing it from one who has it or buying it from a fence. If I have the gold armor and I get killed or it's stolen from me I can either wait for it to be found and returned or go buy another set from a specialty kiosk/vendor.
I think you're on to a good approach to it here. I would even accept it if that was for items I paid cash for, armor, weapons etc.
 
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Bambooza

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I think this one is pretty easy to guess.

If you lost your gold plated concierge sniper rifle, there will be a kiosk where you can reclaim it, much like a ship.

Making people pay to get back an item they paid real money for makes the item useless, for me anyway.

Im not going to bother ever wearing some unique or rare item if it means I have to pay some fee to get it back every time I lose it.

The bigger question is on the other side of this. If you took my gold plated sniper rifle off my body, and I reclaim it and get another. Now there are two of this item. If you now go get this second one off me, then three. Will this gold sniper rifle keep on getting replicated every time I go claim one?

This leads me to believe that some items will simply not be lootable.
Two questions I have.
1. If you did not pay real money for the sniper rifle would you be ok if every time you died you had to buy a new one or find one in the field?
2. Would a better outlook on the real money/sub gift of items be just the right to have access to the skin and thus only those who have the hanger item can purchase a legal version of it in game. While others can loot it/steal it, it will always be flagged as hot?
 

Montoya

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Two questions I have.
1. If you did not pay real money for the sniper rifle would you be ok if every time you died you had to buy a new one or find one in the field?
2. Would a better outlook on the real money/sub gift of items be just the right to have access to the skin and thus only those who have the hanger item can purchase a legal version of it in game. While others can loot it/steal it, it will always be flagged as hot?
1. No, why would I want to keep buying something I payed real money for?

This will cut into CIG's subscription efforts here. If you just payed $20 for the month and got the new cool armor, but then you are killed and somebody looted you, making it difficult or an inconvenience to get it back, are you eager to subscribe for another $20 next month?

Why bother? Ill just go kill somebody wearing it, loot it, and save myself the $20.

2. If you are playing a criminal in the game, does it matter than a particular item is stolen? All your items are probably stolen, being flagged as hot is not a deterrent, probably the opposite!
 

Harkonan

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I honestly don't even think about this stuff.

CIG has stated plenty of times that you will be able to purchase this stuff in-game.

How much realistically is a set of old subscriber armor going to be in-game? A few thousand credits, at most?

Gonna have to be down real bad to care ultimately.

The people who spent real cash will probably have a gameplay loop to repurchase it in-game at discount or no cost. I just wouldn't expect it to be worth your time in game caring all that much.
 
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Montoya

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The people who spent real cash will probably have a gameplay loop to repurchase it in-game at discount or no cost. I just wouldn't expect it to be worth your time in game caring all that much.
Right, its not going to be a big deal or expensive.

On the other hand, why bother subscribing to get any flair at all if you can just take it off somebody else?
 
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Harkonan

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Right, its not going to be a big deal or expensive.

On the other hand, why bother subscribing to get any flair at all if you can just take it off somebody else?

I'm guessing the subscriber model will probably evolve to be more discounts and skins based, honestly. Maybe even larger space station storage. Insert all the MMO tricks.

I could see them changing the name or giving subscriber items a special colored font or something ... So people can flex. But from a gameplay perspective, the basic one in-game will be identical in stats.
 
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Sky Captain

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On the other hand, why bother subscribing to get any flair at all if you can just take it off somebody else?
Aye. I totally agree.

Take it off somebody else to sell it to others in game for real dollars...man, that's the virtual equivalent of a black market ...

Could that border on real criminality given the real dollars involved (though there may be scant case law to support a case against a publisher)?

If I were a developer allowing open stealing of items bought for cash, and allowed those items to be sold for cash, I'd hire a really good lawyer.
 
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Harkonan

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I just don't think alot of the items people are worried about will be all that valuable and sought after in the game.

I don't think people are going to hunt you down for your gold armor when there's realistically probably going to be better armor in game that has extremely rare drop chances.

That's the armor you have to worry about losing. Not the thing you got for free in your subscription 9 years ago, before their design team hit it's stride.

What seems cool and valuable now, might not in 2028.
 

Harkonan

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Put it this way.

If they create armor sets that allow you to place org logos and ranks on them ...

How often are you honestly going to be wearing some glorified cosmetic armor set you donated for in 2018?

Donating ... or "buying" anything in this game with the assumption that it will hold any real world currency or in-game value is dangerous.

I've firmly believed that from Day 1. I could wake up one day and all of the money I have given could be gone with nothing to show for it.

Tis the Star Citizen way. Gotta be built different. Ultimately .... I'm spending a bunch of money so others won't have to.

I expect most of my ships to be worth a fraction of what I paid for them in the end. Otherwise, we're labeled Pay 2 Win and this game becomes the biggest failure in history.
 

Harkonan

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The only "value" I see on my ships is that I dont need to grind to get them. In the opening days of the game that will be important. Six months into the game it will feel completely pointless. 😆
In the future, I think it will probably be more about the components and interiors/exteriors than the ships themselves.

That's why LTI isn't a big deal, imho. Your ship will just be a hull. It's everything you put in it that will make it feel like yours.

NPC cosmetics will probably be a bigger deal than armor sets for the casuals if it becomes a thing. lol
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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I just don't think alot of the items people are worried about will be all that valuable and sought after in the game.

I don't think people are going to hunt you down for your gold armor when there's realistically probably going to be better armor in game that has extremely rare drop chances.
As the old saying goes 'Hope for the best and plan for the worst'.

We have no way of knowing what 'emergent gameplay' will come out of the eventual game and there is track record of players gleefully forcing their fellow gamers to be their content even in non PvP events like the original Xenothreat turning the available game mechanics to suit their play intentions at the disadvantage of those attempting to take part in the game event.

Once loot everything mechanics were announced, I for one definitely didn't go on to the Subscriber Only forum and draw up a list of marks based on people who joined in conversations on various months Flair items and the occasional 'I've been sub'd for X years' threads with the intention to "catch 'em all" without being a subscriber and fence the rest of whatever I can loot. Nope, didn't do that at all... But I can give you even odds more than one of your fellow 'Versemates have, because some people just have to make their own Everest to climb.

I definitely don't have a loot-list of fellow players and definitely am not trying to build a fencing network of other players or Alt accounts to fund my activities from looted stuff that isn't going into the collection. Definitely not. Wouldn't dream of it. I mean why do people even climb mountains anyway?...

...In the words of James T Kirk: "Because it's there".

And the journey whoever chooses to take to attaining that personal looting goal is definitely not going to look anything like this classic scene from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back:

View: https://youtu.be/vuBWbpTJRqk
 
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Harkonan

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As the old saying goes 'Hope for the best and plan for the worst'.

We have no way of knowing what 'emergent gameplay' will come out of the eventual game and there is track record of players gleefully forcing their fellow gamers to be their content even in non PvP events like the original Xenothreat turning the available game mechanics to suit their play intentions at the disadvantage of those attempting to take part in the game event.

Once loot everything mechanics were announced, I for one definitely didn't go on to the Subscriber Only forum and draw up a list of marks based on people who joined in conversations on various months Flair items and the occasional 'I've been sub'd for X years' threads with the intention to "catch 'em all" without being a subscriber and fence the rest of whatever I can loot. Nope, didn't do that at all... But I can give you even odds more than one of your fellow 'Versemates have, because some people just have to make their own Everest to climb.

I definitely don't have a loot-list of fellow players and definitely am not trying to build a fencing network of other players or Alt accounts to fund my activities from looted stuff that isn't going into the collection. Definitely not. Wouldn't dream of it. I mean why do people even climb mountains anyway?...

...In the words of James T Kirk: "Because it's there".

And the journey whoever chooses to take to attaining that personal looting goal is definitely not going to look anything like this classic scene from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back:

View: https://youtu.be/vuBWbpTJRqk
Stalking individual players in this game just for their subscriber flair is probably going to cost you more than it's worth.

Even if you end up managing to get on the same shard ... Is it worth the UEE, faction, and org trouble?

What if you have to spend $75,000 UEC in ammunition just to pirate a ship with a subscriber item worth $20,000? Losing money is extremely bad for a pirate.


We've played for years without consequences. That's going to change in 3.15 and beyond. And that will dramatically change how people play and troll people.

There will be an upfront cost to everything you do. Profits and effeciency I imagine will be pretty important for progression. And they'll almost surely give everyone good reasons to want to progress, even if that gameplay traditionally isn't your thing.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Stalking individual players in this game just for their subscriber flair is probably going to cost you more than it's worth.

Even if you end up managing to get on the same shard ... Is it worth the UEE, faction, and org trouble?

What if you have to spend $75,000 UEC in ammunition just to pirate a ship with a subscriber item worth $20,000? Losing money is extremely bad for a pirate.


We've played for years without consequences. That's going to change in 3.15 and beyond. And that will dramatically change how people play and troll people.

There will be an upfront cost to everything you do. Profits and effeciency I imagine will be pretty important for progression. And they'll almost surely give everyone good reasons to want to progress, even if that gameplay traditionally isn't your thing.
Over these many years the one thing I have made sure to do is not to assume anything about the player base.

"Perhaps because it is there is not sufficiant reason for climbing the mountain" is an astute observation, however one may find that stops absolutely nobody:

View: https://youtu.be/_PRxN-KNqLs?t=217
 
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Harkonan

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Over these many years the one thing I have made sure to do is not to assume anything about the player base.

"Perhaps because it is there is not sufficiant reason for climbing the mountain" is an astute observation, however one may find that stops absolutely nobody:

View: https://youtu.be/_PRxN-KNqLs?t=217
I think people might get big mad if and when they introduce their "pvp slider".

Just saying. I don't think random piracy will really be a thing.

Even in areas where you can do it, you'll have to ask yourself if it's worth the money and chance to lose what you have on you.

I wouldn't be shocked if solo piracy gameplay is mainly PVE, simply because of the risk/reward.
 
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Bambooza

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I think people might get big mad if and when they introduce their "pvp slider".

Just saying. I don't think random piracy will really be a thing.

Even in areas where you can do it, you'll have to ask yourself if it's worth the money and chance to lose what you have on you.

I wouldn't be shocked if solo piracy gameplay is mainly PVE, simply because of the risk/reward.
I am sure the vast majority of piracy will be PVE for those both being the pirate as well as those who are being targeted for pirate activities. CIG's state goal is to make it such that it's hard to tell if the actions were another player or an NPC. As for the PVP slider, I think that's one of those things they talked about years ago that they are hoping people forget about as I do not see it being implemented in the game as it's currently being designed. It was a feature of the game when the game itself was smaller, self hostable and each multiplayer server would have had little groups of people playing on their own instead of the current MMO. I would bet a few kegs of beer that we will never see the PVP slider and it will be up to the players themselves how much risk they are willing to accept based upon the areas they venture into. LIke going out of Stanton into Pyro, and while Stanton is not safe all over it does have safe ports of call.
 

Harkonan

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I am sure the vast majority of piracy will be PVE for those both being the pirate as well as those who are being targeted for pirate activities. CIG's state goal is to make it such that it's hard to tell if the actions were another player or an NPC. As for the PVP slider, I think that's one of those things they talked about years ago that they are hoping people forget about as I do not see it being implemented in the game as it's currently being designed. It was a feature of the game when the game itself was smaller, self hostable and each multiplayer server would have had little groups of people playing on their own instead of the current MMO. I would bet a few kegs of beer that we will never see the PVP slider and it will be up to the players themselves how much risk they are willing to accept based upon the areas they venture into. LIke going out of Stanton into Pyro, and while Stanton is not safe all over it does have safe ports of call.

I would be shocked not to see a PVP slider.

And by slider, I simply mean a system that will not force you into PVP engagement the majority of the time.

PVP zones would effectively be a PvP slider. And Id be surprised if we don't see it.

There's going to be too many people who will want to be left alone, and not interdicted and forced into combat all the time.

My guess Is there will be areas you go specifically for PVP content. While other areas are going to be extremely hard and tedious for PVP to be worth it.

The slider will be the routes you choose to take, imho. I ultimately believe people will have a choice to participate in most, if not all PvP.

The non-stop cries would be overwhelming and people would just get super toxic otherwise.
 
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