Guns. Good or Bad?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by NaffNaffBobFace, Oct 3, 2017.

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Guns. Good or Bad?

  1. Guns Good.

    70 vote(s)
    72.9%
  2. Guns Bad.

    26 vote(s)
    27.1%
  1. NaffNaffBobFace

    NaffNaffBobFace Grand Admiral
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    I have started a new thread for this discussion as the Vegas Shooting thread is not the place to have a serious to-and-fro about the public ownership of Guns being Good or Bad.

    So here it is.

    I have started the thread so shall remain impartial and will not say which side I fall on.

    Anonymous Poll, only two options. All other voting options are in the link below:

    https://testsquadron.com/threads/the-ultimate-poll.9941/

    So, have at it. I saw plenty of Pro Gun ownership in the Vagas Thread from people who grew up around gun ownership, but as I said that really isn't the place to take a contradictory stance or hijack.

    So go nuts here.
     
    #1 NaffNaffBobFace, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  2. smeggy

    smeggy Vice Admiral

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    Personally I don't see it as either good or bad. It is just a tool, but can be a very powerful tool. It more comes down to the one true safety, what is between the user's ears.
    With that said, there are some that should not have said tool or the ability to use one. I'd be in for needed training and testing. That way a user can prove that they can use said tool correctly and safely, as well as take care of it. Some may see that as trying to take them away, but we (humans) already do that kind of thing with being able to drive different cars/trucks and motorcycles.

    I have friends that have their CC license, and carry everywhere that they can. Why? That is part of them after being military for a while. Couple of them are now air guard, but one still has his rifle from when he was army and deployed. He has to take tests to make sure he knows how to take care of it and use it while being safe. Does he contest it? No, due to understanding that it is different than what can be normally kept for a civy and it is a privilege.

    Edit: And to go with the "good/bad" idea, I tend to go back to the classic line from Evil Dead: Army of Darkness. "Good? Bad? I'm the one with the gun" Stating it isn't about good or bad, more of how it is used. And fighting deadites is the best use.
     
    #2 smeggy, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  3. maynard

    maynard Grand Admiral

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    if the guvmint's got 'em then I need me some too

    to keep 'em honest
     
  4. Bigcracker

    Bigcracker Admiral

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    I used to love guns, guns are fun to shoot and pretty kick ass.

    I also work in an ER in Philadelphia. I've dealt with GSW's on a patient as young as 12 screaming and crying for their mother as they bleed out while her mother bleeds out at another hospital.

    After that I really don't like real guns anymore. I know the entire conversation is well I work in a high crime rate area and people will still find ways to kill each other but I never heard of an automatic knife thrower that can go through walls. Sometimes as a society we need to make sacrifices, the only sacrifice I ask for is that people limit the type of weapon they feel they should have.
     
  5. Bambooza

    Bambooza Commander

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    It really is a damned if you damned if you don't situation. As
    But its more then just keeping the government and society at large honest its about the balance of power and the ability to project ones ability to make choices. Remove that power and then you are left with a few capable of making the choices for many.
     
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  6. Han Burgundy

    Han Burgundy Grand Admiral
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    Neither? Are hammers good or bad? What about ice-picks? The only constant truth is: People generally suck, but only a few are sucky enough to become mass murderers.

    A hammer that is being used to build a home for the needy is arguably good. A hammer being used to murder the needy is arguably bad. I would argue that a gun serves it original intended purpose (in the US, anyways) when it is simply sitting in a safe somewhere. The fact that the citizenry is armed keeps the politicians "honest". The french do their revolutions with musical numbers and guillotines (I've had a public education and will watch anything with Russel Crowe in it, so my facts may be skewed on that), but Americans would to it the 'Merican way; by blowing shit up in a HUGE way. And a LOT of them would be able to show up to the dance in a sparkly ball gown that they've been dying to wear, if you catch my drift. (I myself own a Kevlar plate carrier just for shits, so imagine the preppers and their gear) The threat of that unleashing is what keeps the politicians playing nice with the NRA and other gun advocacy groups. (National Rifleman's Association is one of the largest US lobbiers)

    /$0.02
     
  7. Rear_Intruder

    Rear_Intruder Commander

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    Naff,
    Its different here its not in our culture. So I can not judge an American who wants to carry a gun as I could Brit.
    The figures speak for themselves in deaths murders ETC.

    It would take a 100 years and 20,000 deaths to disarm the USA (figures made up for illustration)

    If I was Donald Trump and told the truth I would say:-
    " From up here in the White house, gun control or lack of it, feels a lot different from the chairman's seat in Trump Tower. But there is nothing practical that the POTUS can do about it."
     
    #7 Rear_Intruder, Oct 3, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  8. Thalstan

    Thalstan Vice Admiral

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    I don't like guns. I've fired some, and can't stand the smell as it gives me a migrane. THAT is the reason I don't like guns. I do like bows, and I fletch my own arrows (my wife is better at it though)

    That said, I work with a lot of people who legally own and discharge firearms at locations designed and designated for doing so such as a licensed gun range. One of the people I work with is a reserve officer with the sheriff's department and she runs an unofficial shooting group for people she works with. Many others I work with or know were military in their former careers. Others just like to shoot guns because of the discipline it takes to learn to shoot properly and to compete against others in contests, just like many other martial arts such as kyudo, western archery, fencing, judo, wrestling, boxing, etc. Others love to hunt and I've known many to put a lot of their protein on the table by their hunting skills. My mother grew up on a farm and a lot of their meat came from hunting and fishing.

    Right now, if you said "turn in your guns" there would be some that would, and some that would not. I suspect that some law abiding people would. Some law abiding (with the exception of the violation of needing to turn the gun in) would not. I highly doubt a non-law abiding person would.

    You could stop allowing the sale of guns, but then all gun sales would go underground or unregistered. You would not know who is purchasing the firearm.

    All that said, I am a big believer in personal responsibility. I believe the owner of the firearm is responsible for what it does, unless it's been stolen and then promptly reported. I believe it's the owner's responsibility to take reasonable precautions to prevent it from being stolen or taken without permission by strangers or family members. I believe it is the owner's responsibility to prevent the accidental discharge of a weapon by storing it correctly and using appropriate safety devices such as trigger locks, barrel locks, breach locks, or other devices as appropriate to your exact situation. I believe that if you allow someone to use one of your firearms and they misuse it, you are partly responsible for what happened by allowing it to be borrowed. I believe that all firearms should be registered with a local law-enforcement agency, with ballistics samples as or if appropriate.

    If you chose to exercise the right to own a firearm, you also need to accept the responsibility to ensure it is used in a legal manner. I also believe that if you sell someone a firearm, even if it's to your own sister from your personal collection that you've owned for 30 years, you need to do so legally, and perform the checks required by law to ensure that the person you are selling it to is allowed to own a firearm in the jurisdiction(s) they use/store the firearm in. I believe that safety training should be required for all firearm owners, and that this training should be kept up with and renewed at an appropriate interval. Finally, I believe that large gun purchases purchases of multiple weapons in a short time, and purchases of certain types of firearms should be a flag that may warrant additional review by the appropriate officials prior to the guns being delivered to the purchaser. However, that review should not be unreasonable in length or used as an excuse to deny a person who is deemed legally able to own a firearm from purchasing one.
     
    #8 Thalstan, Oct 4, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  9. Xenorak

    Xenorak Rear Admiral
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    Fire arms are, as someone mentioned before, a tool. They aren't innately good, nor evil, they are merely an object comprised of non-living material with no free will of their own, like me! (Jokes!)

    But really if you ask me its mental health, not so much in the coo-coo sense but other ways as well. Some people just can't cope with some things and act out in a manner that either -

    A) Harms themselves.

    B) Harms others.

    - Now I'm no scientist or psychologist but I would attribute this to a lack of mental "strength" per-say. An individual can handle a certain amount of strain on their psyche before having some form of a break down, be it mental or emotional. They have that sudden "everything is over" feeling and decide to either take it out on themselves, leading to a suicide, or others, leading to things like this. Of course the possibility of outside influence like ISIS is always a factor anymore, where people have become followers of some sort of cult or group that has made them feel welcome, happy, or just plain "right". They then feel some sort of debt to their new "family" and are willing to go to any lengths for them or their cause, leading to similar tragic results.

    But those are just my thoughts.
     
  10. MikeNificent

    MikeNificent Rear Admiral
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    I like guns. I carry legally almost every day. I shoot as much as my schedule allows both for pleasure, and to reinforce the skills necessary to call myself a responsibly armed citizen. I taught my wife to shoot. She carries legally, although is not as consistently as I do.

    In response to your question: guns are irrelevant. It's people that are shitty. I could be perfectly happy in a world without guns. However, if I lived in such a place, I would have to carry a sword or bow or whatever the most effective killing tool my wonderful gunless world had to offer, since said world would still be full of the same shitty people who have never failed to find a reason to hurt each other with little or no pretense.
     
  11. Mich Angel

    Mich Angel Grand Admiral
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    I only have one thing to say about any type of talk about guns, knifes, swords, bow, rockets... nukes etc...

    Weapons as in GUNS etc... Do NOT KiLL by them self! PEOPLE DO when used the wrong way!

    Try understand, learn and teach the difference please!

    Cheers! :beer: :beer: :beers:
     
    #11 Mich Angel, Oct 4, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  12. NaffNaffBobFace

    NaffNaffBobFace Grand Admiral
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    Good discussion so far people, kind thanks for keeping it level headed and providing plenty of quality views from all parts of the planet and all walks of life.

    A common theme I have seen in responses is "It is not the gun that kills people, it is the person who holds the gun" and "A gun is a tool and nothing more".

    As said I want to remain an impartial, however I would like deeper discussion on these two points if I may steer the thread in that direction:

    Many have pointed out "guns are tools and nothing more", however there was a response in the discussion that seemed to go unnoticed:
    In my wish to be impartial, I have deleted my questions that raise from the above points. I would be delighted if they could be addressed further.

    "It is not the gun that kills people, it is the person who holds the gun, the same could be done with hammers/knives"
    I would be delighted if this one could be discussed further too. I have questions about the amount of effort involved to hammer 8 people to death vs shooting eight people in under 30 seconds but I WANT TO REMAIN IMPARTIAL.
     
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  13. Pander

    Pander Vice Admiral

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    At what point is a tool a weapon of destruction? hammers, nails, screw drivers, welders are tools all made to improve, repair build and generally improve on something that is their purpose. to me an item that is made to specifically to do the opposite of this is not a tool its a weapon. this argument just makes no sense, I understand that its the people behind the gun that are doing the damage but that doesn't stop the damage does it?

    Could you honestly approach a survivor of the las vegas shooting or a survivor of the Orlando shooting even someone who has lost their children in one of the "MULTIPLE" school shootings and say guns are good?

    Now I have a moderate understanding of usa gun laws and how strict they are but honestly something needs to change or its just going to be another dead child or parents that have been taken from the world due to how easy it is for a idiot to get a gun

    And the worst part of all of this? some of the people do it to get the most publicity and kill the most people to be famous to get on the news for attention so you now have an pre meditated arms race between idiots? does any of this sound "good" to you?

    and before anyone says well you could kill someone with a hammer this tool has not been made with the express purpose of killing as many people possible in as short a time as possible

    Now i will say my dad owned an air rifle, myself a crossbow and different friends/family here in scotland have weapons so come from a point of understanding them and wanting to use such items for fun purposes I am even an avid paintball player so literally shoot people with paint for fun so i get the appeal of it all.

    sorry i'm not trying to argue with anyone here I just get a little heated when it comes to stuff like this and for that I apologies

    These are of course my opinions on the matter nothing more

    I love all you test guys!
     
  14. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Grand Admiral

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    As most people have said: guns are a tool and IMO should be held by people with the proper training and knowledge to use them responsibly.
    There are positive effects that can be had from tighter gun-control (See Australia, a former British colony with dangerous wild-life and a indigenous people pushed away from their previous lands that had a lot of guns (kinda like the US!) and the effect of the restrictions after the Port Arthur massacre.)
    If you need them to feel safe from lunatics, keep in mind that they could also be armed with a gun... and would be the one to pull first.
    If you need them to keep the government honest... my recommendation is to use your vote instead. You claim to live in a democracy, so use that power and vote for better politicians. You have more than 2 parties to vote for. Voting will make a bigger change in the long run than buying a gun.
     
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  15. Krystal LeChuck

    Krystal LeChuck Meme Meister
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    I say we ban vehicles! There were all those deaths in Europe by terrorists driving cars into crowds and no one looked at the source of the problem. Cars kill people every day, they have the potential of mass murder and instead of restricting them, we make them autonomous! This would be the equivalent of making AI Glocks that are able to walk around and shoot at will!
    /s

    IMHO this whole discussion is stupid. Centuries ago people killed other people in hand to hand combat. They didn't ban limbs or swords or clubs or pikes. What we need to focus on is mental health and education. Guns are not good or bad. They serve a purpose and they usually save lives by ending other lives. They can be survival tools, power equalisers, sporting tools, hunting tools. The same as a knife, a wrench, your fists, or your car. I could kill a bunch of people by mixing household chemicals. Banning tools does not stop terrorism and mass murder.
     
  16. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Grand Admiral

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    But restricting them can help get "impulse use" down. School-shootings will not be as frequent if there are not as many guns in circulation.
    Suicides by overdose can be saved by at a hospital, a suicide by gun to the mouth can not.
     
  17. Lythan

    Lythan Rear Admiral

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    I think a partial ban of weapons would be good. Sure keep your handguns and hunting rifles (locked away please). If people like shooting at ranges, keep the big guns at those ranges. If people want protection, no more than a handgun should be sufficient. Ideally, you wouldn't need a gun to feel safe...

    Would you be alright with this statement:
    Carrying guns and having easy access to them (like on gun shows) is part of our culture. Because of this, mass shootings maybe more common and that is something we accept.
     
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  18. Xenorak

    Xenorak Rear Admiral
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    While it's true that there is no such thing as a automatic knife thrower, you could argue that bows are essentially knife launchers. Fixing a blade or point to a small rod to be launched at a target from a distance, bows and crossbows could penetrate most forms of armor for their time. The crossbow being more potent but slower to load and fire, while a skilled Archer could loose several arrows with relative accuracy much quicker but at the expense of penetration.

    Regarding the hammer bit now, the human body is the most bi-polar thing in existence. People can, and have, sustained various forms of deadly traumas and survived, while others have died from nearly nothing. We are strong yet fragile organisms, so a single solid blow to the head is enough to cause death. Reference that stupid "knock out" game dumbass kids did a few years back, the one where you punched random people in the back of their head. Several people died as a result of that blow, or the impact of hitting the concrete, so a sharp blow with a hammer would cause severe trauma, fractured skull, internal/external bleeding, and kill the person in an albeit messy fashion.

    The only advantages of a firearm over other methods of killing is ease of use, damage, and range, three major factors that have applied to warfare for centuries. Why use a dagger, use a sword, no a spear, a crossbow, a catapult, cannon, musket, and so on. The amount of effort involved is minimal to cause a sizeable amount of damage, way back when, farmers and other conscripted forces of the lower class were able to kill trained soldiers of invading empires by using the musket. It was quick to learn, simple to operate, and the firepower it boasted made any sword wielding rider shit their pants when it was pointed at them, because they couldn't do a damn thing. That's how things are now more or less, you could go on a stabbing spree like that crazy Chinese man last year (i think it was last year) or you could pull something like this incident in Vegas. Both are feasible, albeit horrible, but it comes down to efficiency among other circumstances depending on the individuals intention.
     
  19. A.Santos

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  20. Injustice

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    Guns are neither good or bad, they are simply guns. The person holding that gun, is the one responsible for what that gun does.

    I do believe however that America is past the point of no return when it comes to guns though. We have so many in the country, that taking them away now would only give advantages to criminals (those who do not surrender their guns).
     

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