So where is "master modes?"

Richard Bong

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Master modes was featured at Citizen Con.
Master modes on the tracker says "Implementing new modes to vehicles to manage a their speed, components, and role-specific functions. " The task was complete last September with no additional work listed or planned.
But I can't find it on the release schedule.

Has anyone heard anything, official, on where it is now?

Or is it just more abandonware?
 

FZD

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Here's me kinda hoping it's abandonware. Ditching your shields to escape or to arrive as reinforcements, neither sounds particularly appetizing.
 

KuruptU4Fun

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Here's me kinda hoping it's abandonware.

If it's already built into SQ42, then your SoL...

Ditching your shields to escape or to arrive as reinforcements, neither sounds particularly appetizing.

Dragsters can reach hundreds of miles an hour in a few seconds and in turn increase the possibility that their engines will blow up and lose the ability to steer properly. Seems applicable to me in comparison.
 

FZD

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If it's already built into SQ42, then your SoL...
The current combat model was also already built into SQ42. So, y'know.

Dragsters can reach hundreds of miles an hour in a few seconds and in turn increase the possibility that their engines will blow up and lose the ability to steer properly. Seems applicable to me in comparison.
Well, I don't find using a dragster as my primary mode of transportation particularly appealing either, so that's an apt comparison.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Limiting speed in space still makes no sense to me. The handwavium for this speed limit defies physics.
I agree entirely I want unrestricted speeds too, the physics of the Servers however dictate a speed limit must be included. I have reached 2000m/s and that seems to be, at present, the maximum.

The main problem with the handwavium for speed limits being legal is every day people break the speed limits in their own cars... Oh, the manufacturer has limited your car to only 155mph like in Germany and it's legal to go that fast on the Autobahn? Doesn't stop you going that fast through a residential area too.

Added to that speed is relative. The speed of your ship taking off from the advancing orbit side of a planet will be faster than from the trailing orbit of a planet when observed from the star it's orbiting around but from the planet it'll be the same speed...

Knowing the hard limits on Server stability and speed limits, I'd have handvavium'd some basic zero-point energy tapper which would decouple from its connection with the 'Verse and power down your ship if you went over a certain speed or creates drag a ships engines must fight against like cars have to fight against the atmosphere at higher speeds, allowing any ship to be able to get a speed upgrade not necessarily by upgrading their engines but by upgrading that component so it has a better grip on its connection to the energy source it needed to be connected to or a lower drag coefficient... or some kind of skin-of-reality drive giving limitless lower speed motion meaning although you may run out of go juice you could still defend yourself... Fuel could still be nreeded for anything over the low SCM speeds (remember those?) the SOR drive provided but it would allow players to still manoeuvrer even if the needle was on empty... The benefits of everlasting limited supplies of energy or everlasting fuel-less limited motion of a travelling craft far outweigh the bonus of limitless space based acceleration and high sub-quantum speeds when Quantum Drive render those two aspects relatively obliterate... that kind of balance I feel could have been more believable as you get an advantage that an advanced space-faring civilization may take for granted a 930 years in the future.

The legal perspective handwavium unfortunately would be just too easy to circumvent. So an Aurora has a top speed of 500 and a 350r 1200. Why? What makes the 350r more or less legally compliant? And what stops a pilot from installing a 350r engine in their Auroras Cargo Box slot? Or strapping 15 engines to the vehicle?

Or Pirates from just disobeying the law and stripping out the limiter or adding more engines? It just doesn't connect with the limitless possibilities of the 'Verse. Not everyone is going to comply...
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Hmmmm I'm liking the idea of a Zero-Point energy source which has a Drag factor. Ship reactors are already seemingly unending pools of power, so adding a balance to that advantage would not be out of place and really would explain speed-limits in space and how manufacturers like Origin design their ships around fighting Ze-Drag for high sub quantum speeds while others like Drake just strap the biggest engines they can find on to a Herald to get to that high speed status :-D

This could also provide that "Dogfigher in space" aspect they so want - the one thing that has been hampering the dog-fighter aspect is there is no atmosphere and no need to keep moving - with Human ship designs having one main thruster and smaller mav thrusters that drag could be so much as to limit the mavs ability to give the drastic 6 degrees of Freedom we have now. I'm not saying it would stop ships from being able to move in those directions, just not as half as effectively as with the main thrust.

Hell, the drag could be scaleable based on how much energy your ship was using. Running with weapons off and no shield, your ship sips fuel to keep moving, turn on the loud tubes and you'll have to burn that hydrogen to stay in the fight especially with energy weapons... or the generator provides less power the faster you go as it looses its grip on the Zero point... aha, yeah, that would make sense with what they want for low-shield arrivals, you travel slow and arrive better equipped for a ruck but they see you coming and it's harder for you to get away if the attack goes south, or travel fast and catch them by surprise but less able to provide a decent alpha strike, but better able to run away...

Someone call Chris, we have the 'BobFace solution!

Or... perhaps an idea for another game in another time? :-D
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Ditching your shields to escape or to arrive as reinforcements, neither sounds particularly appetizing.
It's all about choices. Despite most prefer fixed over gimbaled on agile craft, many still use gimbals. It's Burger King--"Have it your way!"
Well, I don't find using a dragster as my primary mode of transportation particularly appealing either, so that's an apt comparison.
It's a broken analogy. You can't use dragsters for daily use. They're designed to hit their heat limits in just a few seconds. After that they go boom.
Limiting speed in space still makes no sense to me. The handwavium for this speed limit defies physics.
I agree entirely I want unrestricted speeds too, the physics of the Servers however dictate a speed limit must be included.
It's not the physics of the server that is the problem. It's the physics of space. With any arbitrarily high relative velocity, it is impossible to intercept, stop, thwart, harass, bully, pester, annoy, react, hail, or disrespectfully moon anyone who has a clue. No top velocity means no game. The players would never interact. Even ships with very low accelerations could reach insane speeds in just a minute--speeds so crazy high that no players can interact with them.
 

Richard Bong

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It's not the physics of the server that is the problem. It's the physics of space. With any arbitrarily high relative velocity, it is impossible to intercept, stop, thwart, harass, bully, pester, annoy, react, hail, or disrespectfully moon anyone who has a clue. No top velocity means no game. The players would never interact. Even ships with very low accelerations could reach insane speeds in just a minute--speeds so crazy high that no players can interact with them.
Space is vast and empty. The only placce where those actions are practical, in the real universe, is near a choke point. (Important planet, wormhole, station, etc.)

I have no issue with that. The game works under those circumstances. This is supposed to be "The best damn space sim, period!" That would be Honor Harrington, The Expanse, Traveller Book 2 combat, etc. "The best damn space sim period" isn't Snoopy vs. the Red Baron which is, apparently what we signed up for.
 

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As @Shadow Reaper mentioned speed limits are purely for game mechanics and nothing to do with server limits or real world realism. They both serve as a way to give value to different ships allow for game play opportunities as well as a means of time sink to give value to different means of wealth generation. Especially trade routes require both ship size limits and speed limits to balance the rewards.

As for Master modes I imagine the work is done and is just waiting on the new ship ui to be implemented first.
 
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Richard Bong

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As @Shadow Reaper mentioned speed limits are purely for game mechanics and nothing to do with server limits or real world realism. They both serve as a way to give value to different ships allow for game play opportunities as well as a means of time sink to give value to different means of wealth generation. Especially trade routes require both ship size limits and speed limits to balance the rewards.

As for Master modes I imagine the work is done and is just waiting on the new ship ui to be implemented first.
View: https://youtu.be/rZBHits8JPI


If that is what it is, then telling us wouldn't be a bad thing.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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This is supposed to be "The best damn space sim, period!" That would be Honor Harrington, The Expanse, Traveller Book 2 combat, etc. "The best damn space sim period" isn't Snoopy vs. the Red Baron which is, apparently what we signed up for.
Yes, this is what we all signed up for because those who understand physics, know that player interactions would not happen in a playground with an arbitrarily high velocity of the ships. Not only this, but players would be crashing into things like planets just as they do when driving in the snow. I think you need to think about it and you'll agree, CIG was correct when from the start they recognized that we can't have arbitrarily high relative velocities in the game. Nothing would function in a playable way.

If you want to complain about this, think about the velocities given laser weapons and what happened when CIG originally released tachyon weapons. It sounded like zero time to target (emulating light speed) was a good idea until they found no one was missing their target with those weapons. CIG was then forced to nerf them, as they made the game unplayable. Think what would happen EVERY time a ship was hit by a tiny asteroid--BOOM! No ship left at all. Ships can't fly through asteroid fields, but the experience is fun! If Han Solo can do it, I wanna do it. Likewise again, turret play is artificially enhanced for good reasons. What we found during WWII is that even the best turrets like those found on the B-29 have virtually no effect. The best gunners flying the best turrets simply did not hit attacking fighters sufficient to keep them safe. What eventually turned the tide of the air war over Europe was the P-51, chiefly because it had enough range to guard the big bombers from the Luftwaffe. Real physics would make all turret play useless--it simply would not exist in game. Instead of trying to be accurate here, CIG instead tries to introduce play that emulates turrets and stealth found on the seas--and it works. It makes great gameplay. Witness too the loss of tactics like blockades and minefields. Without serious departures from reality, those tactics would have no place in the game. With a limit to velocity like we find on the seas, those dynamics can have a place.

I once saw a great interview with George Lucas where the interviewer challenged him about turrets and he responded that they were indeed emulating naval tactics rather than aerial, because we know aerial gunners never hit their targets.

Space physics makes some things too easy and some things too hard, and that doesn't make for a challenging game. It makes for a game no one will play.

BTW, I like the Expanse too, but they also don't accurately represent real physics. Many of the maneuvers seen by the Rocinante represent hundreds of gees acceleration that would kill the crew and render their ships into molten slag. The same is true when viewing aircraft in cinema, where they're supposedly going Mach 5 pulling "slow" turns. In reality, craft like the Blackbird traverse whole states before they change direction even a few degrees, because higher turn rates would generate gee forces sufficient to generate a rapid, unscheduled disassembly.

I think CIG is still learning and I disagree with their call back in 3.14 to make all combat closer. They killed the ranges of most guns, eliminated sniping entirely. I don't like it, but they want to see Snoopy antics. There should be an ability to dogfight. You don't really have that in space. If they cut dogfighting entirely, how many players do you think would stay and how many would leave?

One thing I can say is, the combat is more exciting and better than before. Players aren't forced to joust they way they used to be. That much is entirely good, IMHO.
 
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Ayeteeone

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Enjoying the discussion; here's a few bits to add.

There is a speed limit imposed by server performance (especially at only 30 fps). AFAIK we've never been told what that number is, but the statement has been made. I'd guess at some point the prediction routines would break and the ship position could no longer be accurately represented on screen. There is math to support the concept as it affects weapons fire too. We used to have MUCH higher velocities on many weapons; many of those higher velocity projectiles would not reliably connect due to discrepancies in the calculations.

However, as pointed out and discussed above, the main reason is gameplay. Spaceship combat is a foundation block of this game, and sci-fi in general. So the ability to create that required tension by bringing tiny objects filled with players into conflict out in the infinite black, in a timeframe and manner consistent with a GAME, means some parts of reality will need to be altered. I.E. Quantum travel in it's several forms now.

The Expanse is an outstanding show, but even they take liberties with concepts like detection and travel times for the sake of creating drama. Often by omitting from the show just how damn long it takes to cross those distances.

As someone who has extensively flown, tested, fought, reported the bugs and (sometimes loudly) expressed my opinion on every patch since 2.6.3, the existing low speed system is tolerable; balance between ships is more the issue. Once you get beyond SCM the light fighters dominate for a number of reinforcing reasons mostly related to speed and agility, and no balance is possible. This has made PvP quite boring... the speeds need to come down even if only to make the light fighter vulnerable to other ships again.

As @KuruptU4Fun pointed out, losing shields to go into boost isn't an appealing idea, and I'm certain this 'feature' will get the most noise from the community. Depending on how it's implemented there will be opposition to it from the very first Evocati patch that it shows up in.
 
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Richard Bong

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Yes, this is what we all signed up for because those who understand physics, know that player interactions would not happen in a playground with an arbitrarily high velocity of the ships. Not only this, but players would be crashing into things like planets just as they do when driving in the snow. I think you need to think about it and you'll agree, CIG was correct when from the start they recognized that we can't have arbitrarily high relative velocities in the game. Nothing would function in a playable way.

If you want to complain about this, think about the velocities given laser weapons and what happened when CIG originally released tachyon weapons. It sounded like zero time to target (emulating light speed) was a good idea until they found no one was missing their target with those weapons. CIG was then forced to nerf them, as they made the game unplayable. Think what would happen EVERY time a ship was hit by a tiny asteroid--BOOM! No ship left at all. Ships can't fly through asteroid fields, but the experience is fun! If Han Solo can do it, I wanna do it. Likewise again, turret play is artificially enhanced for good reasons. What we found during WWII is that even the best turrets like those found on the B-29 have virtually no effect. The best gunners flying the best turrets simply did not hit attacking fighters sufficient to keep them safe. What eventually turned the tide of the air war over Europe was the P-51, chiefly because it had enough range to guard the big bombers from the Luftwaffe. Real physics would make all turret play useless--it simply would not exist in game. Instead of trying to be accurate here, CIG instead tries to introduce play that emulates turrets and stealth found on the seas--and it works. It makes great gameplay. Witness too the loss of tactics like blockades and minefields. Without serious departures from reality, those tactics would have no place in the game. With a limit to velocity like we find on the seas, those dynamics can have a place.

I once saw a great interview with George Lucas where the interviewer challenged him about turrets and he responded that they were indeed emulating naval tactics rather than aerial, because we know aerial gunners never hit their targets.

Space physics makes some things too easy and some things too hard, and that doesn't make for a challenging game. It makes for a game no one will play.

BTW, I like the Expanse too, but they also don't accurately represent real physics. Many of the maneuvers seen by the Rocinante represent hundreds of gees acceleration that would kill the crew and render their ships into molten slag. The same is true when viewing aircraft in cinema, where they're supposedly going Mach 5 pulling "slow" turns. In reality, craft like the Blackbird traverse whole states before they change direction even a few degrees, because higher turn rates would generate gee forces sufficient to generate a rapid, unscheduled disassembly.

I think CIG is still learning and I disagree with their call back in 3.14 to make all combat closer. They killed the ranges of most guns, eliminated sniping entirely. I don't like it, but they want to see Snoopy antics. There should be an ability to dogfight. You don't really have that in space. If they cut dogfighting entirely, how many players do you think would stay and how many would leave?

One thing I can say is, the combat is more exciting and better than before. Players aren't forced to joust they way they used to be. That much is entirely good, IMHO.
I've played Traveller with those rules. Yes, they take a little getting used to, and the effect was partially mitigated by the 6G limit on Acceleration (and most non-military ships were well below that).

Lasers, plasma and fusion weapons fired at the speed of light but had limited range. Missiles were for beyond that. But once you got the hang of it, it was a blast with a sense of accomplishment. Slingshoting around bodies with gravity for that perfectly timed strike, meant something. Braking maneuvers to change direction with a new vector but taking your best firing arc out of the fight and still pulling off that hit.

Now that's space combat!

You don't need a speed limit, you need an acceleration limit to simulate space combat.
 
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Dirtbag_Leader

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because those who understand physics, know that player interactions would not happen in a playground with an arbitrarily high velocity of the ships.
^This is the instrumental point right here! I'll take it step further and point out it's not even really due to velocity per se in the way most people think about LINEARLY, but rather the relative ORBITS of the two craft. If you've ever played Kerbal Space Program, then you know that one of the ultimate challenges is getting 2 craft to rendezvous in orbit. Any time you change your velocity your change your orbit. Speed up, and your orbital altitude increases. Slow down and it decreases. Add normal velocity and your orbit tilts. And to intercept a craft on another orbit, you need to change all of this on more than half an orbit early in order to get an intersection, and then homogenize the orbits once you get close to the interception point. And while this is in fact a TON of fun, well, it's different-fun and doesn't lend itself well to combat-fun:
1681863154012.png
 

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It's a game. It will have GAME mechanics. Preferably mechanics that work and are fun, unlike the jousting bullshit we had for so long. I'm fine with whatever silly handwaveium they think up to stop that happening and turn it into a fight where ships stats like turn rate actually matter. As for the loss of shields for speed and stuff, well, we will adapt, like we did for the last n+1 times we had to. Git gud.
 

Han Burgundy

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Everything is a lever through which balance can be made. This Master-Modes thing and all of the complexity around it will no doubt manifest itself via sub-component and Component class gameplay. Each ship will start by selecting a class of Shield/Qdrive (Think differences between manufacturers) Then the captain of said ship can choose a series of sub-components that will further effect the performance of that part. The groundwork is all already in place if you start paying attention to the different manufacturer offerings and reading the descriptions accompanying them.

Example pulled straight from my ass:

Big-rig Hauler?
Industrial Q drive
-Fuel efficient
-Reliable
-Difficult to Quantum Jam (On average, maybe, due to overall ship mass)
-Slow to spool
-Hot as hell on thermals
Industrial Shields
-Large "Hit point" reservoir (To guard against industrial accidents)
-Reliable (Difficult to disable entirely)
-Slow to recharge
-Hot on Thermals
-Slow to raise on inbound jump
Fighter Pilot?
Combat Q drive
-Quick to spool/Calculate
-Hot on thermals
-Asstastical fuel economy
Combat Shields
-Quick to rise after inbound jump
-Recharges quickly
-Durable with likely built-in redundant components
-Hot on thermals
-Smaller overall "Hit point" reservoir

Haulers can be seen from a mile away and take a good while to get going, a bit like a walrus. (That is their weakness) But you look at one of those fat bastards sunbathing in the arctic and tell me they aint efficient AF and hard as shit to kill with a kitchen knife. (That is their ultimate strength)

Then you have your combat pilots, who are a bit like cheetahs. Can they get at you from far away on their own? Nah. But if you come into their territory where they CAN reach you, they are going to be on top of you and showing off those teeth of theirs in a real hurry. (That is the ambush predator's advantage.) They are agile and hard to mortally wound, but they tire quickly and can lose out on their kill if they take too long. (If someone gets ambushed, they're going to call the cops to come crush you. Better hurry!)


And so on and so forth...That's just my entirely rectally plucked take on the matter. Variables are our friend, and the more the devs have to fiddle with, the more they can make the choices we make feel meaningful.

 

Richard Bong

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It's a game. It will have GAME mechanics. Preferably mechanics that work and are fun, unlike the jousting bullshit we had for so long. I'm fine with whatever silly handwaveium they think up to stop that happening and turn it into a fight where ships stats like turn rate actually matter. As for the loss of shields for speed and stuff, well, we will adapt, like we did for the last n+1 times we had to. Git gud.
It is indeed a game, with game mechanics. It is also supposed to be "the best damn space sim, period." The two are not mutually exclusive.

Ship stats where there is no jousting isn't going to happen, nor should it. That concept is completely unrealistic. Mallory's "Big Wing," the "Thatch Weave" and similar tactics forever ended Snoopy vs. The Red Baron combat style.

In air combat the victory goes to a single pass where you put rounds (or especially missiles) on target. This is especially true if you do it in a formation.

Why would I try to fly my Vanguard or Sabre like a Gladius?

In WWII the complaint that the P-38, F4F, P-47, etc. can't dogfight was met with the response, then don't dogfight.
 
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