The antisocial trend in MMOs

Bruttle

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So let me start by saying that I tend to be an antisocial. To me it's not a function of antisocial disorder (although it very well might be). Rather in my head, it is a lack of tolerance for society. In the real world I see a complete lack of politeness, respect, and courtesy. People block the isle at the supermarket to have a conversation and I see "fuck you. fuck your time. our conversation is more important than your ability to pass." People walk by with their cellphone on speaker talking into the microphone without it even being up to their ear and I see "my conversation is more important than any conversation you are having. I am going to talk as loudly as possible. Listen to how important I am."

The world I step out into every day is full of these little rude, annoying moments. I try to be courteous and respectful of my fellow humans, but it is almost always returned with the same self important arrogance. Most of the time, it leads me to wear the "don't you dare fucking try to talk to me" face when I'm in public and I am fortunate to be big enough to pull it off.

The online world isn't much different. Trolls, griefers, and malcontents run rampant on the internet and MMO's are a popular place for them to ply their trade. In any MMO, my patience eventually runs thin and I tend to play MMOs as a solo game...ish. Everything from a blaring voip to frequent afks, to a general lack of effort (read: lazy players looking to get carried) leave me with the same natural tendency towards antisocial behavior.

In the real world, my wife is my saving grace. She constantly challenges my comfort zone in this area. She disturbs my antisocial habits and "forces" me to interact with other people. In doing so, we keep a respectable social life and I am regularly steered away from my "everyone is assholes" outlook on society.

MMO's are a different story. There is no constant challenge. Most MMO's continuously move towards soloable content. Things get easier and easier. 40 man groups turn into 25. 25 man groups turn into 15 and 10. 10 man groups turn into 5 and 2. They start including group finders and raid finders. They continually find ways to make it possible to play without any meaningful interaction.

The do this because it works for the numbers. They make games solo friendly and people will tend to play them solo. That's because, without a driving force to group up, people won't. That's the problem. Some of my greatest MMO memories were created with long term groups. Some groups lasted for years. It was amazing, but hasn't happened in a while.

That's because games don't push people together anymore. They make the majority of your time in-game soloable. Instead of creating content that naturally requires a group effort, they make the group effort the "special occasion". Then, they make those special occasions possible without any meaningful interaction. So as a matter of default, players tend to play solo and never create those meaningful connections that were the entire purpose of the genre.

So what do you think. Do you think this is a function of society or game design decisions? Is it possible to go back to the group required content? Or have we gone too far into the world of antisocial societies to return? Does anyone really want to anymore?
 

Ezz

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@Bruttle - gaming is just a reflection of society .. as long as there is no ask for teamwork there will be no games with heavy focus on teamwork - sadly
There are many games that are mode for teamwork focus. Regarding online gaming probably most games. MOBA's like League or Dota2, FPS like Counter strike, Games like Rocket League all require Teamwork. Even games Like PUBG are often played in teams. So most online games are Teamwork-focused games.
Regarding MMO you might be right. But not because there is no content for Teamwork. Let's take GW2 for eample. Dungeons, PvP and WvWvW is all done in Groups. Making this kind of content meaningful teamwork in that it's done with a group of friends and not randoms is up to the players them self IMO. The MMO's I played for a while I always ended up in social groups. If I play a MMO on my own without those groups of people I lose interest in the game. Even though the last MMO I played didn't really reward playing in a party while leveling I still did it.
If you are not social by yourself the publisher can't really force you into it without excluding players who are not active enough to have a social group in a game, players who are online 2-4 times a month for a few hours... thats not enough time.. thats what those group finders are for.
 

supitza

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So let me start by saying that I tend to be an antisocial. To me it's not a function of antisocial disorder (although it very well might be). Rather in my head, it is a lack of tolerance for society. In the real world I see a complete lack of politeness, respect, and courtesy. People block the isle at the supermarket to have a conversation and I see "fuck you. fuck your time. our conversation is more important than your ability to pass." People walk by with their cellphone on speaker talking into the microphone without it even being up to their ear and I see "my conversation is more important than any conversation you are having. I am going to talk as loudly as possible. Listen to how important I am."

The world I step out into every day is full of these little rude, annoying moments. I try to be courteous and respectful of my fellow humans, but it is almost always returned with the same self important arrogance. Most of the time, it leads me to wear the "don't you dare fucking try to talk to me" face when I'm in public and I am fortunate to be big enough to pull it off.

The online world isn't much different. Trolls, griefers, and malcontents run rampant on the internet and MMO's are a popular place for them to ply their trade. In any MMO, my patience eventually runs thin and I tend to play MMOs as a solo game...ish. Everything from a blaring voip to frequent afks, to a general lack of effort (read: lazy players looking to get carried) leave me with the same natural tendency towards antisocial behavior.

In the real world, my wife is my saving grace. She constantly challenges my comfort zone in this area. She disturbs my antisocial habits and "forces" me to interact with other people. In doing so, we keep a respectable social life and I am regularly steered away from my "everyone is assholes" outlook on society.

MMO's are a different story. There is no constant challenge. Most MMO's continuously move towards soloable content. Things get easier and easier. 40 man groups turn into 25. 25 man groups turn into 15 and 10. 10 man groups turn into 5 and 2. They start including group finders and raid finders. They continually find ways to make it possible to play without any meaningful interaction.

The do this because it works for the numbers. They make games solo friendly and people will tend to play them solo. That's because, without a driving force to group up, people won't. That's the problem. Some of my greatest MMO memories were created with long term groups. Some groups lasted for years. It was amazing, but hasn't happened in a while.

That's because games don't push people together anymore. They make the majority of your time in-game soloable. Instead of creating content that naturally requires a group effort, they make the group effort the "special occasion". Then, they make those special occasions possible without any meaningful interaction. So as a matter of default, players tend to play solo and never create those meaningful connections that were the entire purpose of the genre.

So what do you think. Do you think this is a function of society or game design decisions? Is it possible to go back to the group required content? Or have we gone too far into the world of antisocial societies to return? Does anyone really want to anymore?
I see myself a lot in what you wrote. IRL, I'm a very friendly and polite person, but deep inside I'm disgusted with society.
I shy away from playing online games with groups of people that I don't know because, more often than not, the experience turns out to be lackluster.
I used to love playing with people online and I honestly don't know what changed for me. I guess I grew up and so did my former gaming buddies, with jobs that are more and more demanding and allow no more time for games. These days, I don't have 5-8 hours to go raiding. I'll have 20-30 minutes, maybe 1 hour or 2 to play and I don't want to be the afk-er in somebody else's group if I need to help my wife with something or walk the dog or take a shit.
Also, I'm way past being okay with some 15 year old calling me names on VOIP. Those little disrespectful shits.
So I became a solo player.

I hope my being in TEST will change that for me.
 

Bruce

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There are many games that are mode for teamwork focus. Regarding online gaming probably most games. MOBA's like League or Dota2, FPS like Counter strike, Games like Rocket League all require Teamwork. Even games Like PUBG are often played in teams. So most online games are Teamwork-focused games.
Session like games have some rudimental teamwork focus ... but no actual teamwork ( cs doesn't require two players for ANY activity for instance ... and most of the time in non-clan games there is 0 teamwork at any level ) :)
 

Bruttle

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Also, I'm way past being okay with some 15 year old calling me names on VOIP. Those little disrespectful shits.
So I became a solo player.

I hope my being in TEST will change that for me.
Too true. When I do come across people like that, the first thing that comes to mind is "You remind me of the lazy, disrespectful shit I had to fire the other day".

Test has been great for my view of the online community though. We don't always agree. We have a wide variety of opinions and we come from all walks of life. However, there is a ton of mutual respect around here. It's refreshing. It's nothing like the toxic madness that floods the SC forums, or any other mmo forum for that matter. Honestly, you could post a simple "hi" and get a dozen middle finger emojis over there...

I am really happy I found Test though.
 

Ezz

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Session like games have some rudimental teamwork focus ... but no actual teamwork ( cs doesn't require two players for ANY activity for instance ... and most of the time in non-clan games there is 0 teamwork at any level ) :slight_smile:
I can't really follow. CS is a 5v5 game that depends on everyone doing their part. Or do you mean deathmatch?
And GW2 requires the whole party to play coordinated in order to get to the next stage of the dungeon (elite dungeons that is) I can't think of anything more team work oriented. Or do I misunderstand something?
 

makute

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So let me start by saying that I tend to be an antisocial. To me it's not a function of antisocial disorder (although it very well might be). Rather in my head, it is a lack of tolerance for society. In the real world I see a complete lack of politeness, respect, and courtesy. People block the isle at the supermarket to have a conversation and I see "fuck you. fuck your time. our conversation is more important than your ability to pass." People walk by with their cellphone on speaker talking into the microphone without it even being up to their ear and I see "my conversation is more important than any conversation you are having. I am going to talk as loudly as possible. Listen to how important I am."

The world I step out into every day is full of these little rude, annoying moments. I try to be courteous and respectful of my fellow humans, but it is almost always returned with the same self important arrogance. Most of the time, it leads me to wear the "don't you dare fucking try to talk to me" face when I'm in public and I am fortunate to be big enough to pull it off.

The online world isn't much different. Trolls, griefers, and malcontents run rampant on the internet and MMO's are a popular place for them to ply their trade. In any MMO, my patience eventually runs thin and I tend to play MMOs as a solo game...ish. Everything from a blaring voip to frequent afks, to a general lack of effort (read: lazy players looking to get carried) leave me with the same natural tendency towards antisocial behavior.

In the real world, my wife is my saving grace. She constantly challenges my comfort zone in this area. She disturbs my antisocial habits and "forces" me to interact with other people. In doing so, we keep a respectable social life and I am regularly steered away from my "everyone is assholes" outlook on society.

MMO's are a different story. There is no constant challenge. Most MMO's continuously move towards soloable content. Things get easier and easier. 40 man groups turn into 25. 25 man groups turn into 15 and 10. 10 man groups turn into 5 and 2. They start including group finders and raid finders. They continually find ways to make it possible to play without any meaningful interaction.

The do this because it works for the numbers. They make games solo friendly and people will tend to play them solo. That's because, without a driving force to group up, people won't. That's the problem. Some of my greatest MMO memories were created with long term groups. Some groups lasted for years. It was amazing, but hasn't happened in a while.

That's because games don't push people together anymore. They make the majority of your time in-game soloable. Instead of creating content that naturally requires a group effort, they make the group effort the "special occasion". Then, they make those special occasions possible without any meaningful interaction. So as a matter of default, players tend to play solo and never create those meaningful connections that were the entire purpose of the genre.

So what do you think. Do you think this is a function of society or game design decisions? Is it possible to go back to the group required content? Or have we gone too far into the world of antisocial societies to return? Does anyone really want to anymore?
Are you me?

On a more serious note... I think it's a combination of society just slowly degradation and a tendency of game designers to "streamline" the experience.

I really miss the early days of MMORPG's: The best times I had in SWG, PreBC World of Warcraft, and several others was socializing and interacting with other players, and I hate interaction, so it says a lot.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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I love your observation Bruttle.

There is definitely a fragmentation of groups who would otherwise have a shared interest and incentive to work together... it's like even people with a shared interest in a group MMO they just have this individualism to the point of denying themselves progress in the games they like to play...

I am reminded of the following from The Hitchikers Guide:

Arthur stared into his beer. "Did I do anything wrong today?" he asked "Or has the world always been like this and I've just been too wrapped up in myself to notice?"
 

CosmicTrader

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good thing SC encourages co-operative gameplay with their multi-crew ships
This has been, and still is, CR's primary goal for Star Citizen.
Team play.
It was quite clearly restated in last weeks RtV by Todd Papy when questioned about NPCs.

SC will change everything about the future of on-line gaming.
(With the help of TEST SQUADRON members leading the way of course.)
TEST SQUADRON - BEST SQUARDON


Speaking of SC changing the games of the future - and present - have a look at this video about Server Meshing in Dual Universe.........
 

Bruce

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I can't really follow. CS is a 5v5 game that depends on everyone doing their part.
It depends, but
1) it doesn't have even one activity that can NOT be performed by one guy
2) when you are playing in a pug team 80% of the time couple of guys on your team have no clue that they are playing mission based team game and doing some funny stuff
3) other team (as long as it's not a single clan) usually have the same issues and wondering around ( i.e. any game from silvers to dmg and above there is quite high probabilty to see CT in the T spawn at least once :) )
 

Printimus

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This has been, and still is, CR's primary goal for Star Citizen.
Team play.
It was quite clearly restated in last weeks RtV by Todd Papy when questioned about NPCs.

SC will change everything about the future of on-line gaming.
(With the help of TEST SQUADRON members leading the way of course.)
TEST SQUADRON - BEST SQUARDON


Speaking of SC changing the games of the future - and present - have a look at this video about Server Meshing in Dual Universe.........
I am much excite.
 

Bambooza

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So let me start by saying that I tend to be an antisocial. To me it's not a function of antisocial disorder (although it very well might be). Rather in my head, it is a lack of tolerance for society. In the real world I see a complete lack of politeness, respect, and courtesy. People block the isle at the supermarket to have a conversation and I see "fuck you. fuck your time. our conversation is more important than your ability to pass." People walk by with their cellphone on speaker talking into the microphone without it even being up to their ear and I see "my conversation is more important than any conversation you are having. I am going to talk as loudly as possible. Listen to how important I am."

The world I step out into every day is full of these little rude, annoying moments. I try to be courteous and respectful of my fellow humans, but it is almost always returned with the same self important arrogance. Most of the time, it leads me to wear the "don't you dare fucking try to talk to me" face when I'm in public and I am fortunate to be big enough to pull it off.
Arthur stared into his beer. "Did I do anything wrong today?" he asked "Or has the world always been like this and I've just been too wrapped up in myself to notice?"
While I agree the world is full of these rude annoying moments I do not believe it stems from people purposefully being jerks but more an outcome of being wrapped up in themselves and their world to realize how their actions impact others. And with the increase population density and technology such short sightedness now has a far larger impact on others. Where stopping to have a conversation at the super market years ago when there were just a few shoppers would not block anyone else because there was no one else to block, now becomes negativity to a number of other shoppers sharing the same space. In fact the best place to witness this is driving a car. That individual did not purposefully cut across 3 lanes to cut you off. They simply did not plan their exit strategy well and in their attempt to make the exit cut you off. And while I do not believe there is any acceptable fix for the masses in their self-centeredness, how we as individuals react can have a far longer and sometimes tragic impact on our lives.


The online world isn't much different. Trolls, griefers, and malcontents run rampant on the internet and MMO's are a popular place for them to ply their trade. In any MMO, my patience eventually runs thin and I tend to play MMOs as a solo game...ish. Everything from a blaring voip to frequent afks, to a general lack of effort (read: lazy players looking to get carried) leave me with the same natural tendency towards antisocial behavior.

In the real world, my wife is my saving grace. She constantly challenges my comfort zone in this area. She disturbs my antisocial habits and "forces" me to interact with other people. In doing so, we keep a respectable social life and I am regularly steered away from my "everyone is assholes" outlook on society.

MMO's are a different story. There is no constant challenge. Most MMO's continuously move towards soloable content. Things get easier and easier. 40 man groups turn into 25. 25 man groups turn into 15 and 10. 10 man groups turn into 5 and 2. They start including group finders and raid finders. They continually find ways to make it possible to play without any meaningful interaction.

The do this because it works for the numbers. They make games solo friendly and people will tend to play them solo. That's because, without a driving force to group up, people won't. That's the problem. Some of my greatest MMO memories were created with long term groups. Some groups lasted for years. It was amazing, but hasn't happened in a while.

That's because games don't push people together anymore. They make the majority of your time in-game soloable. Instead of creating content that naturally requires a group effort, they make the group effort the "special occasion". Then, they make those special occasions possible without any meaningful interaction. So as a matter of default, players tend to play solo and never create those meaningful connections that were the entire purpose of the genre.

So what do you think. Do you think this is a function of society or game design decisions? Is it possible to go back to the group required content? Or have we gone too far into the world of antisocial societies to return? Does anyone really want to anymore?
Online gaming as a whole only magnifies the situation as it gives everyone a cloak of invisibility. Where in person anti social behavior has real ramifications even in the anonymous of the masses, the online world looses all repercussions, and so its easily to see everyone's worse nature. It is only when the individual has an invested interest in the community that once again a degree of socially acceptable behavior is introduced, but only to the level of tolerance required for the group. Even here in this great group there is a lot of behavior that is showcased on the forums that would never be uttered in person by those same individuals. Its even easy to imagine once Star Citizen goes live how from the perspective of a pirate commandeering loot would have a significant negative impact on some individuals who's perception of the event was being picked on and being griefed even though from the perspective of the pirate it was random opportunity.

All of these sort of interactions if not heavily controlled by the game become toxic to the community which leads to a desire to be a solo player or limited to a small group experience. After all who wants to participate socially with a toxic individual and community at large? When the social part of the MMO takes a downturn it leaves the developers with the need to a find solution to keep their fan base engaged, this is often achieved by simplifying the social requirements. In the end this is a short term solution as it was the social aspect of the game that kept the players engaged.

The end result is there is no solution as people are by their very nature jerks to strangers and often friend alike. And it is only through our compassion to forgive and forget the transgressions that we can continue to engage with each other civilly. All the more special those few individuals whom we can cherish and truly call friend.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Do you think this is a function of society or game design decisions? Is it possible to go back to the group required content? Or have we gone too far into the world of antisocial societies to return? Does anyone really want to anymore?
I think two things:

First, I think that whenever I am tempted to view the common man with contempt, it is wise to focus for a moment on my own shortcomings. It's much easier to excuse others with them currently in mind. What I can't then excuse I need to forgive, and as a huge recipient of forgiveness, I am wise to demonstrate that.

Second, yeah. Games will accommodate any sort of behavior. Look at Grand Theft Auto. However it remains true that in game and out, those who work well with others always prove to be the most powerful and effective in their daily lives. Find a way. Solo doesn't work past playing hermit, and there is no real reward in that.
 

Bambooza

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First, I think that whenever I am tempted to view the common man with contempt, it is wise to focus for a moment on my own shortcomings. It's much easier to excuse others with them currently in mind. What I can't then excuse I need to forgive, and as a huge recipient of forgiveness, I am wise to demonstrate that.
Its also been proven to be much healthier life style.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/forgiveness/art-20047692
 

Bambooza

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Was thinking that as much as I know I should forgive and let slide there are many a time I would love to have my car modified to have two 20mm guns with their trigger buttons on my steering wheel.
 
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