AI Adjacent

To be honest, I hadn’t thought to turn this into a debate so I’ll be as brief as possible to address your points.

There were over 64,000 separate democracies in Greece over the 600 or so years before Christ. Whomever told you it was a couple white guys lied to you. Also, anyone who led you to believe those democracies did not allow women nor slaves to vote, lied to you. The fact is virtually every form of self governance was tried at one time or another. Eventually, only the head of a household who could field a warrior with armor and weapons in defense of his city-state was counted as a single vote. That became the “polis” or individual from which we get “politics”. Of course all these pure democracies were utterly deficient as identified by Socrates and Plato, and rendered obsolete by the invention of the Republic.

Yes, there is an inherent tension between the power of labor and management and when it is out of balance you necessarily get excesses of one sort or another. This wasn’t solved until the invention of the Union. So preunion examples do often reflect a natural imbalance. Still, it is a lot better to choose your work than have someone do it for you. Are you recommending slavery over selling skills on a free market? I don’t think so. I think you’re complaining because some very ungrateful person taught you to complain. In a Communist community you’d be killed for this. I am old enough to remember the Soviets shooting people trying to cross the Berlin Wall. . . shot and killed people regularly for decades who were trying to escape the USSR. There was never anyone shot trying to go the other way.

Just to be clear, you absolutely do not demonstrate a command of history sufficient to judge these things. Rather, you seem to respond with leftist propaganda. I heartily suggest you do some research on your own, since as I noted; your peculiar kind of ignorance got two hundred million people killed last century, and if that mind virus gets loose again it will kill billions. Utopian world views are always the ones that get people killed. World views that treat mankind’s nature as tragic, flawed and needing to be kept in check have consistently provided the most freedom and prosperity, and even a grammar school examination of history will show this beyond a doubt. Do you know who Pol Pot was and what percentage of his own people he murdered in the name of Utopia?

Stop comparing life against heaven. We are not yet suited to heaven. If we were let in the way we are, we would ruin it. A political system does not need to be perfect to be good. All we can hope for is a system that deals with life and its maladies and keeps our natures in check. The system does not need to be perfect to be good and capitalism has proven itself as very much better than communism.

Go talk to someone, anyone from a communist country. Their eyes are not filled with stars, but rather anger at what communism does to people in the real world.

Shadow Reaper said:

Just to be clear, you absolutely do not demonstrate a command of history sufficient to judge these things. Rather, you seem to respond with leftist propaganda. I heartily suggest you do some research on your own, since as I noted; your peculiar kind of ignorance got two hundred million people killed last century, and if that mind virus gets loose again it will kill billions.

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This is unTESTly conduct. I let you get away with it when you pulled this with me because I don't deficate on my own doorstep and I like the utopia that is Testsquardon.com, but I will not stand idly by as you try it on with another member.

Until the above paragraph your response was civil and informative, but accusing others of being responsible for genocide and whatever this "mind virus" spiel that someone appears to have influenced you with at some point is, isn't in any way appropriate to be accusing another Glorious member of Test of and is weak minded provocation seemingly intended to quash and distract from any further discussion progression - it serves no other purpose to your point or discussion than to try to belittle others into silence and is in no way welcome. To quote/ misquote you when you tried this on with me: "stop poisoning the well."

I politely request you remain civil and keep any of the above conversation technique to yourself. You were doing very well to that point and you invalidated your post and every other post you have ever made with one paragraph of petty nonsense.

To show your acknowledgement and contrition please delete that paragraph from your post or revise it into a civil form (if one exists) if you feel it has to remain to make a point which is otherwise lost within it.

If you’re asking me to remain civil you must think the above, civil. So where’s your complaint?

Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything but ignorance. I didn’t assign moral culpability. I suggested he read some.

I think you’re being a little over sensitive. Absolutely, it is no crime to note Communism killed two hundred million people. If you need me to say it, I think that was before Mudhawk was born, but I don’t really know. Certainly it never crossed my mind to blame him or her. I blame people like Pol Pot, and I inferred such.

Shadow Reaper said:

If you’re asking me to remain civil you must think the above, civil. So where’s your complaint?

Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything but ignorance. I didn’t assign moral culpability. I suggested he read some.

I think you’re being a little over sensitive. Absolutely, it is no crime to note Communism killed two hundred million people. If you need me to say it, I think that was before Mudhawk was born, but I don’t really know. Certainly it never crossed my mind to blame him or her. I blame people like Pol Pot, and I inferred such.

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And here you obfuscate again. You were uncomfortable with the response and belittled the commenter. Now I call you out on it, you duck and dive, pretend I didn't quote the article in question then belittle me also.

I am having none of it.

If you obfuscate and refuse to address the matter again I will take it as admission by omission that you know that conduct is not appropriate.

Act and edit your post with respect and be respected in return or continue your false defence of ducking and diving and under the above condition accept and admit with your actions that you know that paragraph is not how you address a fellow TESTie.

Edit the post to say what you say you meant it to or delete it outright, and you will continue to have my respect as all TESTies are entitled to. Leave it as it is, admit by omission, loose my respect and disrespect the whole of TEST. Choose.

No. I have no issues with Mudhawk. Stop making problems for others. There’s nothing wrong with the post. If you need to whimper, let Montoya know your knickers are all atwist.

Shadow Reaper said:

No. I have no issues with Mudhawk. Stop making problems for others. There’s nothing wrong with the post. If you need to whimper, let Montoya know your knickers are all atwist.

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I will not stand by when I see people disrespecting and belittling others. I can take a kicking all day long but will not tolerate it happening to others and I will call it out when it sits in front of me.

The terms of the transaction were laid out before you: Edit the disrespect from your post or respond with anything else and admit by omission. You did not have to accept those terms by simply not replying, yet full in the knowledge of what not addressing the issue meant, you have made your choice and admitted by omission.

The evidence of disrespectful conduct remains in your original post as well as in my quoted segment.

By your own hand be it.

Look, Montoya moderates this forum. If he needed help, I think he would choose someone other than me or you.

So far as I am aware, I have only ever had a serious issue here with one person other than you. I blocked that person and the problem is gone. Was years ago. I happen to enjoy most of your posts, but if you keep this up I’m going to block you too.

I like Mudhawk. I have liked hundreds of his posts (just as I have liked hundreds of yours). He knows this. If he decides because I noted he should read some authentic history, that he doesn’t like me back, I will be sad.

You however are off my Christmas card list. Now stop being naughty or I will tell Santa.

Oh wow, another de-railed thread of pointless internet arguing. Save this for your echo chambers boys.

Personally i prefer discussions about the game we're here for.

Sintha said:

Oh wow, another de-railed thread of pointless internet arguing. Save this for your echo chambers boys.

Personally i prefer discussions about the game we're here for.

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Well, can't really argue with that. :-)

So I'll let this rest even though there are a lot of question on my mind.
But one thing I can not leave uncommented.

Shadow Reaper said:

I think you’re complaining because some very ungrateful person taught you to complain.

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A) I complained? Damn, and here I thought I simply explained my point of view. Blimey!
B) I do not get who that "ungrateful person" is supposed to be.
My teacher of religion who taught me that god get's kinda pissed if we dance around golden calves?
My teacher of history that taught me of the similarities in human conduct behind all these different names, goverments and ages?
My teacher of ethics that taught me that no oh so cleverly shrouded insult ever gets an argument across?
Got to be tagging someone completely different than my teachers (and I also count people I met outside of school if there was something to learn from them). The hole bunch strikes me as many things but ungrateful is not among their traits.
And I am definitely grateful that they taught me.
And because they taught me well I can think for myself and ask questions and accept that i might not be correct in all of my assumtions or happy with all the answers I get.
Doesn't hurt my selfrespect one bit.
Still thanks for the moral support @NaffNaffBobFace .

PS: Damn, one more thing (Can't help it, seriously)

Mudhawk said:

Besides, that show only played in Athens.

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Got me there @Shadow Reaper , it was at least 52 city-states that tried their hands at a democratic system between 600 and 400 BC in Ancient Greece. Well according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_democracy.
Maybe a few more until 148 BC. That's when the romans took over for all practical purposes.
Still my 1 is closer to the actual number than your guess:

Shadow Reaper said:

There were over 64,000 separate democracies in Greece over the 600 or so years before Christ.

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So IF history were a game of horseshoes I would have won that one.
But since we were both wrong let's call it a draw.
And get back to business.
AI is stille the toppic of the thread I presume?

Anybody else sick and tired of all the pseudo political/philosophical bullshit certain members here love to engage in?

Stick to the discussions about Evil Disney/Kathleeen Kennedy/Woke Star Wars!!

Aramsolari said:

Anybody else sick and tired of all the pseudo political/philosophical bullshit certain members here love to engage in?

Stick to the discussions about Evil Disney/Kathleeen Kennedy/Woke Star Wars!!

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I cannot deny I have tried of such topics especially after my own personal belittling in a prior thread, however I cannot with clear conscience call out one TESTies harsh words and allow another to express similar sentiment without comment.

I appreciate your frustration with the recent decorum or lack thereof, but please resist the invitation to lower yourself to unTESTly conduct such as disrespect - we are all better than this and can all redeem and defend ourselves from the folly of flame-wars by not just following the glory of TEST, but by being the glory of TEST we all aspire to by being excellent to each other.

So my most excellent compadre, back to the topic of AI in a media product, I know you are in the movie industry - I can imagine what your take on it may be given your devotion to the craft but I'd love to hear your perspective on AI in movie production as well as it's potential for NPCs in SC?

Mudhawk said:

I do not get who that "ungrateful person" is supposed to be.

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Yes you do. Someone taught you that because our system is not perfect, that it is not good when all the evidence you have is that it’s the best in history.

Please read the last sentence in the second paragraph at the link you sent. Half of a thousand is 500 and none of the democracies in Greece lasted even one century. That is however playing fast and loose with the notion of city. There were many thousands of these city states. For the authoritative word on the subject please see Dr. Victor Davis Hanson.

No matter who’s definition you like, the world’s premier political science lab lasted hundreds of years testing thousands of iterations of Democracy. We know the most about Athens because there were so many lettered folks there, but we also know that some of these Democracies allowed both women and slaves to vote. So my point remains. You were lied to.

And that really is the point. Ideologs often shade or twist the truth to make things sound much better or worse than they were, and those people are responsible for your writing about “how about this?” And “what about that?!” in your posts above. You had so many complaints I decided not to address any of them. But think about them. Why did you bring them up? You were complaining because you were taught to complain. This is past the glass is half empty.

Your processing of history, focused for example on who owned slaves—at a time when everyone who could afford it all around the world owned slaves—is the complaint you were taught. Now if you had had a real history teacher, they would have explained that’s an example of “Presentism”, which is a very serious thinking flaw that history teachers are meant to avoid, and teach you to avoid. Instead, they taught you flawed thinking.

That’s past the glass is half full. So I reiterate, this is not heaven. Something does not need to be perfect to be good. That’s the big take away here. Capitalism has freed more people from poverty and delivered more freedom than all the other systems throughout human history combined, and I for one think that’s a fair measure of these systems. Communism is responsible for more suffering, agony, poverty and death than any other system. That’s a good measure of failure.

Someone sold you a crazy story. Like I said, go ask someone from a Communist country.

View: https://youtu.be/eNdtcFZgUwo?si=9TI9AS24H0nWEPLi

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NaffNaffBobFace said:

I cannot deny I have tried of such topics especially after my own personal belittling in a prior thread, however I cannot with clear conscience call out one TESTies harsh words and allow another to express similar sentiment without comment.

I appreciate your frustration with the recent decorum or lack thereof, but please resist the invitation to lower yourself to unTESTly conduct such as disrespect - we are all better than this and can all redeem and defend ourselves from the folly of flame-wars by not just following the glory of TEST, but by being the glory of TEST we all aspire to by being excellent to each other.

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Yeah I don’t think so, mate. This is not the first thread our friend has derailed. I mean if it’s his usual rant fest about Woke Star Wars or whatever….well they’re his threads and they usually fade away after a while.

The problem is when he tries to derail threads other Testies start. Look at what the original post was about. AI and it's implementation in Star Citizen, yes....Star Citizen the VIDEO GAME. Look at what it has been steered towards. Capitalism versus Communism? Random stuff about Ancient Greeks? Passing comments about Slavery? Am I the only one tired of buddy's Pseudo-Intellectual social/political nonsense in this video game community? Dude is painfully unaware that many of us come to this community to avoid that shit. I swear there's at least one post a month about how evil Woke Disney/Star Wars is and it's tiresome. Hell..he has one ready to go for January, right on cue. Did Kathleen Kennedy run over our friend's dog with a full sized SUV or something?

If you wanna go off topic, go off topic. Not 'Star Citizen General Discussion'. Take it to Discord or something. Too bad he won't see this because I've been blocked lol. I think I made fun of him for treating Mike Zeroh (look up this clown on YouTube) as a legitimate Star Wars 'Insider'. LOL

Aramsolari said:

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Yeah I don’t think so, mate. This is not the first thread our friend has derailed. I mean if it’s his usual rant fest about Woke Star Wars or whatever….well they’re his threads and they usually fade away after a while.

The problem is when he tries to derail threads other Testies start. Look at what the original post was about. AI and it's implementation in Star Citizen, yes....Star Citizen the VIDEO GAME. Look at what it has been steered towards. Capitalism versus Communism? Random stuff about Ancient Greeks? Passing comments about Slavery? Am I the only one tired of buddy's Pseudo-Intellectual social/political nonsense in this video game community? Dude is painfully unaware that many of us come to this community to avoid that shit. I swear there's at least one post a month about how evil Woke Disney/Star Wars is and it's tiresome. Hell..he has one ready to go for January, right on cue. Did Kathleen Kennedy run over our friend's dog with a full sized SUV or something?

If you wanna go off topic, go off topic. Not 'Star Citizen General Discussion'. Take it to Discord or something. Too bad he won't see this because I've been blocked lol. I think I made fun of him for treating Mike Zeroh (look up this clown on YouTube) as a legitimate Star Wars 'Insider'. LOL

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I appreciate your restraint and calm considered response, many thanks. Given your background in the industry I can imagine certain topics will be especially provocative considering your actual real experience in the field, and yes Off Topic is certainly the place for such derail content, but worth noting subjects such as IRL politic are banned from the forum anyway ;-)

Yes I accept your point 'We' being excellent to 'each other' involves both sides and when disrespect has been served that ideal is already in peril - but consider the following words of wisdom I live by which I first heard from the lips of Vol Jang of (now defunct) YouTube series Trolls News: "Being an asshole to assholes is still being an asshole"... resorting to the same insult swinging tactics as the disrespectful member not only amplifies the original slur, it validates the use of continued insults, it's a model in escalation which will only ever go on one direction: up. Someone slinging mud already has mud on them, throwing more at them will do not a thing and get you muddy too.

We don't have to tolerate disrespectful conjecture on whether our fellows are ignorant, no matter how veiled behind flowery language the insults are, and we also don't have to use more straightforward regular insults in return either. We can be excellent to each other and when we are not, as I have in this thread, just call it out and invite your fellow org member to show contrition and check what they have said.

If they didn't mean to be disrespectful and it was inadvertent of course they will do all they can to atone, it's just editing a post, it's not difficult.

If it was veiled they did fully intend, their following actions will speak for themselves and out that intention. As I said "By your own hand be it."

So, to re-rail the thread: What's your take on AI to replicate realistic humanoid action as NPCs in SC?

So I see Aram showed up. No surprises there. BTW folks, I blocked him because he invaded a thread on home defense and tried to get me to remove my pro 2A posts from my own thread, which apparently offended him. He wanted me to remove the entire thread because though guns are cool in games, he is anti-gun and he cannot bear anyone think sensibly about the responsibility of gun ownership. Typical Leftist censorship of any notions he disagrees with.

I will also note I did not derail this thread. I responded to communist rhetoric without changing the subject. All this discussion relates to the questions surrounding AI. Will AI emerge in a capitalist society accustomed to keeping our most base impulses in check (like our computer games), or it will emerge in a communist society where evil is given free reign? So this discussion is perfectly appropriate.

Naff, I did warn you. You came to this thread angry about something that happened in a post several weeks ago on a very different issue, and created a problem here where none existed. I warned you if you didn’t stop I would block you and now unfortunately due to your lack of emotional maturity, common sense, and self control; you are blocked. It’s a shame but your ankle-biter nonsense needs to come to an end. So. . .it is ended. Best of luck.

If all that you encounter all day every day are immature assholes, then maybe....

With five thousand posts over seven years, you are eventually gonna meet bad eggs. Still, this forum is overwhelmingly good eggs. Most of us can have adult discussions, encounter opposing viewpoints, even be offended and yet act with restraint. OTOH, when members haunt each other forum to forum and chase others down to insert angry and self righteous posts based upon past owies, that’s what the unfollow button is for.

Reading these two posts in succession gave me a good laugh.
Then again, I am an ill-educated guy who's obviously bad with numbers, got a desperate, dark worldview plus i've been eternally deceived by everyone that ever taught me. (Shame on you mom!)
So my humour's got to be this simple. :-P

PS: I did read up on Dr. Victor Davis Hanson. Boy, no wonder our world-views differ that much Shadow Reaper. Personally I'd rather read Thucydides original works than turn another page in "A war like not other". And Thucydides is one dry read I tell you.
Anyway, can we please just leave it at that, as there is simply no accounting for taste, and return to being good eggs?
Egg being "EI" in german.
Which sounds like "AI" if you do not spell it out...
(Damn, that sounded better in my head...)

Err I’m a gun owner but carry on lol.

NaffNaffBobFace said:

So, to re-rail the thread: What's your take on AI to replicate realistic humanoid action as NPCs in SC?

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I’m afraid I’m no expert in AI. I do think it’ll be fantastic for SC if the devs can pull it off for NPC interactions. As for how it’ll pertain to my industry, many of my colleagues are fearful of it. I'm cautiously optimistic that it can complement our work, not replace it.