Theorycrafting a Simple Bording

Shadow Reaper

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To satisfy my own curiosity I thought I would run some numbers that might be reasonable concerning the simplest kind of boarding. For convenience sake I need to make some presumptions here, but it should be fun anyway.

Lets say we have an attack on a Star G. Lets presume it has a crew of 6 and that each player has 2 NPC's under his control. Lets also presume we have 6 players attacking in 3 Vanguards: 1 Sentinel and 2 Hoplites who likewise have 12 NPC's total, and see if they have a reasonable chance of taking down the Star G.

According to the most recent data, the Star G sports 4 HG-146m shields, each producing 1350 hp shield. They have an abysmal regeneration rate and no one will want to fly that bird with such terrible shields, so lets presume the owner has replaced them with 4 Godi Retaliator shields, that put out 3,000 points protection each, and lets likewise presume that to be safe, any attacker launching a spike missile will want to take down both shields facing his missile. So the 3 Vanguards need to do 6,000 points damage with their guns in as little time possible.

A plausible but not optimized weapons load-out for the Vanguards is 4 M4A = 766 DPS, plus 2 M6A = 910 DPS, plus 2 M3A = 332 DPS, for a total of about 2,000 DPS per ship, or 6,000 DPS for all three ships. Once the three attackers are in range they should not miss such a large, sluggish target and will disable the facing shields in about one second. We can stipulate all sorts of complications, such as the Vanguards taking hits before they are in range etc., but it is pretty reasonable to say the Star G will lose its oversized and expensive shields very quickly, and that the Sentinel's S3 spike missiles will not fail to hit such a large, lumbering target.

Then the three attackers take out the various turrets which are at their mercy, and the 3 attacking turret gunners lead 4 NPC's each to board the Star G at three locations at once, for a total of 15 boarders. At this point no matter what sort of reasonable guesses we make, it is not going to go well for the Star G. The tanker needs to make sure things never get to this point by flying with escorts.

We do not yet know if short range and various carrier based fighters like the Sabre and Hornet can be refueled in flight. We do know the Tana variant of the Reliant can be refueled because it sports a refueling probe. So lets say that each of the 6 members of the Star G has one NPC marine aboard the tanker, and one pilot aboard a cheap Tana, and that the Tanas are each sporting 8 007 Bulldogs, for a DPS of 1,240 each ship. Note there are two Tanas for each Vanguard. The attackers cannot afford to ignore this escort wing even for an instant, and it is questionable if they would even attack. Without some sort of significant advantage, the attackers would do well to move on to a softer target, IMHO.

This very simple analysis does illustrate some important points. First off, one wonders whether it is advisable for merchant crews to pay marines at all. As a defender, you really don't want to use them. Wouldn't it be better to buy more cheap ships like Tanas and fly not one wing of escorts, but two? Unless someone actually wants to steal the Reliants, this seems the safest choice. With more escorts one can afford to spread them further out, and make them less vulnerable to EMP, etc.

Secondly, it is worth noting that there is almost no need to optimize the weapons load-out on the attacking vessels for higher DPS. Putting a pair of OMNI XII's and 4 of the Vanduul S2 Plasma Cannon's on the nose of each Vanguard could about double the firepower we just looked at, but all that would do is save 1/2 second in combat. Is this worth it? Certainly not. However, what if one optimized around another value than quick take down, such as range; in order to take out the Tanas without fully engaging them? This kind of approach is now a serious consideration.

Fun thought experiment and instructive. Thinking through the scenario with the Vanguards each wearing 4 Tarantulas and noting their hugely extended range, one wonders whether the Vanguards would not accept the challenge. If they can hit with relative impunity at >5km, would they pass up a fat prize? Would you? This really makes me reconsider the place of medium and long range weapons, even when they have crummy speed. It also makes me curious about just how much the zoom works. Can you target a turret on a disabled Star G at 5km, or would you need to move within range of her weapons (presuming the turrets sport the standard high speed anti-fighter weapons.)
 

Han Burgundy

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The main mechanic of boarding that I have always been curious about is momentum. After you kill the target ship's drives, do you then match speed and disable your inertial dampeners to EVA over, or does every good pirate crew have some sort of Tractor beam type mount on their booty-hauler ship that will slow and eventually stop your prey for easy picking? Craft that Theory!
 

Shadow Reaper

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. . .will it have been worth the 15 minute dog fight with the tana's to have to make up the profit by salvaging the entire wreckage of the starfarer after the captain initiates self destruct when you start boarding ?
I have seen no official note that players will be able to self destruct their ships, and given the harsh consequences for dying in game that we keep hearing rumors about, I think it will be anything but casual to off one's self or ship. Don't mistake what we have now for what is planned.

The main mechanic of boarding that I have always been curious about is momentum. After you kill the target ship's drives, do you then match speed and disable your inertial dampeners to EVA over, or does every good pirate crew have some sort of Tractor beam type mount on their booty-hauler ship that will slow and eventually stop your prey for easy picking? Craft that Theory!
Great question. Another way to put it is "what use is a docking collar?" No one seems to know, but it is the biggest difference between a Vanguard and a Redeemer when it comes to long range boarding actions. CIG hasn't said a word that I have read but it is worth noting that they are committed to making the Cutlass a pirate ship, and they have recently removed plans for a docking collar, so it appears at present we won't need them to board ships.

I think from what they have said, that tractor beams will not be necessary for most boarding. They have implied several times that most boarding will be of smaller ships attacking larger ones, and they have also said tractors can ONLY be used on smaller craft, so the two almost seem mutually exclusive.
 
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Han Burgundy

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They have implied several times that most boarding will be of smaller ships attacking larger ones, and they have also said tractors can ONLY be used on smaller craft, so the two almost seem mutually exclusive.
This is the main thing that got me wondering. Classic logic would demand that the "Anchor" ship have more mass than the victim's does. If underweight, perhaps one could kick in exceptionally large amounts of reverse thrust to counteract the Anchor ship's inferior mass? That would make for an interesting specialized ship design. One that is designed to lock down QD drives and act as a fishing rod to reel your victims in to their doom. Buuuut there I go off the rails again. I suppose if that was in the plans, we probably would have heard about it by now....or not. Who the hell knows.
 

Carlos Spicyweiner

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We do not yet know if short range and various carrier based fighters like the Sabre and Hornet can be refueled in flight.
If the core fighters of the game cannot be refueled by a Starfarer they are escorting, then I'm selling mine. Fighters are a necessary evil as far as I'm concerned. There has to be an alternative to the WW2 escort tactics of "you guys are on your own because we're bingo fuel"
I have seen no official note that players will be able to self destruct their ships, and given the harsh consequences for dying in game that we keep hearing rumors about, I think it will be anything but casual to off one's self or ship. Don't mistake what we have now for what is planned.
Let's say I'm carrying something VERY sensitive on a Herald and everything goes sideways. Now, there may very well be harsh consequences for blowing a ship, but there may be factors that override that decision. I would hope that if the consequences are monetary, a substantial refundable deposit to cover the insurance "premium" could be negotiated into a contract.
 

Xian-Luc Picard

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This is the main thing that got me wondering. Classic logic would demand that the "Anchor" ship have more mass than the victim's does. If underweight, perhaps one could kick in exceptionally large amounts of reverse thrust to counteract the Anchor ship's inferior mass? That would make for an interesting specialized ship design. One that is designed to lock down QD drives and act as a fishing rod to reel your victims in to their doom. Buuuut there I go off the rails again. I suppose if that was in the plans, we probably would have heard about it by now....or not. Who the hell knows.
Why not just simply use a tractor beam as a grappling hook to "hang on" to the other, larger, ship? The equivalent of your kid grabbing onto your leg while you are trying to walk.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Classic logic would demand that the "Anchor" ship have more mass than the victim's does. If underweight, perhaps one could kick in exceptionally large amounts of reverse thrust to counteract the Anchor ship's inferior mass? That would make for an interesting specialized ship design. One that is designed to lock down QD drives and act as a fishing rod to reel your victims in to their doom. Buuuut there I go off the rails again. I suppose if that was in the plans, we probably would have heard about it by now....or not. Who the hell knows.
According to CR, the attacker has to have the larger ship and the ship being tractored will wreck both ships if they engauge their engines while tractoring. Tractors are not meant for controlling a ship that has engines. IIRC, they are really meant more for moving cargo, and much smaller ships. For instance, a Reclaimer can tractor in a ship with no operative engines.

If the core fighters of the game cannot be refueled by a Starfarer they are escorting, then I'm selling mine. Fighters are a necessary evil as far as I'm concerned. There has to be an alternative to the WW2 escort tactics of "you guys are on your own because we're bingo fuel"
Yes, but CIG has been clear from the start there is a huge difference between long and short range craft. This is why I am so disappointed with the Reliant--they took the bed out and made it short range. If you buy a carrier-based fighter like a Hornet, you should not assume it can be refueled in flight. It's meant to fly off a carrier. In-flight refueling requires a fuel probe and I have only seen one to date--the one on the Reliant. We will need to wait and see. In any case we know we do not yet see all the consequences of range that will be in game in the future.

Why not just simply use a tractor beam as a grappling hook to "hang on" to the other, larger, ship?
CR said that will break your ship. I guess it is just they need to put limits or they will have unwanted exploits to cope with. Tractors really do have a lot of ways to abuse them if you don't limit them.
 
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Han Burgundy

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According to CR, the attacker has to have the larger ship and the ship being tractored will wreck both ships if they engauge their engines while tractoring. Tractors are not meant for controlling a ship that has engines. IIRC, they are really meant more for moving cargo, and much smaller ships. For instance, a Reclaimer can tractor in a ship with no operative engines.
Fair enough. I suppose if the big man upstairs says it wont work like that, then it don't work like that. That still leaves the question, then, of how you board a ship that became disabled while in motion. I suppose that, in space, it's all relative. Matching speed will feel (from the FPS perspective) like you are floating around a static object, I imagine. All it would take is some math-magic from your suit's inertial dampeners to set "0" to the speed at which your target is floating. Gosh, theorycrafting is both fun and soul crushing at the same time....
 
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Shadow Reaper

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That still leaves the question, then, of how you board a ship that became disabled while in motion. I suppose that, in space, it's all relative. Matching speed will feel (from the FPS perspective) like you are floating around a static object, I imagine.
Yes, and in fact, this is what it is like in real life too. General Relativity is explicit that there is no way to ever find a "preferred" or "absolute" frame of reference. The only motion that matters is relative motion, so if you perfectly match speed with a drifting ship, it will appear to you that the ship is static or motionless. This is not a problem. The problem comes not when a ship if drifting and you want to board it, but when it is rotating and you want to board it. Rotation is not maintaining a constant velocity like something that is drifting, but rather is maintaining a constant angular velocity, which is an acceleration. Accelerating frames of reference are what are called "non-inertial frames" and they create all kinds of havoc. You could for instance board a rotating ship and let go of a gun, and have it appear to fly against the wall because the wall has actually rotated and collided with your gun. Rotation is a cause of all manner of trouble. This is why CIG uses instances in ships, to get rid of these fictitious forces, or we would not be able to move about in ships at many times.
 
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Han Burgundy

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The problem comes not when a ship if drifting and you want to board it, but when it is rotating and you want to board it.
Perhaps THIS could be a utilization for the tractor device? Match speed and use the beam to stabilize the enemy ship for easier unloading? I imagine that there will be SOME kind of mechanic to work around this. (Even if they make every ship have "emergency gyros" that stabilize a ship's tumble after a loss of power.[Though, I hope they don't do that because it will be awesome to come across a wreck that is lazily tumbling through the black])
 

Xian-Luc Picard

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Perhaps THIS could be a utilization for the tractor device? Match speed and use the beam to stabilize the enemy ship for easier unloading? I imagine that there will be SOME kind of mechanic to work around this. (Even if they make every ship have "emergency gyros" that stabilize a ship's tumble after a loss of power.[Though, I hope they don't do that because it will be awesome to come across a wreck that is lazily tumbling through the black])
This goes back to my tethering idea... you could slow the tumble of your ship by giving up some of your own ships's inertia to the tumbling ship to balance it. If you were to simply match the tumble with your own ship without stopping it, you could potentially create a situation where everyone passes out from the outward force created.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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In the same way that CIG has planned a fictional drag function that slows craft in space when they're in coupled mode, and that puts an upper speed limit on each craft, my guess is they'll introduce a fictional drag function that causes craft that are tumbling to stop eventually. how quickly that happens is a noteworthy issue. Since the inside of each ship is protected from inertial effects through instancing, one way of protecting your ship from boarders could be to deliberately put it into a tumble and uncouple it, if you think you're about to be spiked, hit by EMP or overcome from Jokers. While you're tumbling you can't be boarded, and even if a phony drag function removes the tumble, if it takes long enough for your computer to come back up, you could again fire up your engines and start over.
It will be fun to see how this all works.
 
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Xian-Luc Picard

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In the same way that CIG has planned a fictional rag function that slows craft in space when they're in coupled mode, and that puts an upper speed limit on each craft, my guess is they'll introduce a fictional drag function that causes craft that are tumbling to stop eventually. how quickly that happens is a noteworthy issue. Since the inside of each ship is protected from inertial effects through instancing, one way of protecting your ship from boarders could be to deliberately put it into a tumble and uncouple it, if you think you're about to be spiked, hit by EMP or overcome from Jokers. While you're tumbling you can't be boarded, and even if a phony drag function removes the tumble, if it takes long enough for your computer to come back up, you could again fire up your engines and start over.
It will be fun to see how this all works.
I hadn't thought of this as a defensive maneuver... I kinda like that idea!
 
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Shadow Reaper

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. . .it is worth noting that there is almost no need to optimize the weapons load-out on the attacking vessels for higher DPS. Putting a pair of OMNI XII's and 4 of the Vanduul S2 Plasma Cannon's on the nose of each Vanguard could about double the firepower we just looked at, but all that would do is save 1/2 second in combat. Is this worth it? Certainly not. However, what if one optimized around another value than quick take down, such as range. . .
So I looked at this and am curious if any of the Warden pilots here can tell us, have you tried any of the longer range weapons on that bird? I'm interested to hear what something like this might offer:

2XS1 top turret = 2 Longsword, range 5120, 336 DPS
4XS2 fixed nose = 4 Tarantula, range 5662, 1064 DPS
2XS4 Fixed Nose = Omni XII, range 3940, 1,180 DPS

total DPS at ~4km = 2,580 and 1,400 DPS out to ~5km

These all have similar ammo speed, so would give tight pips. The trouble is they are relatively slow compared to the usual weapons of choice that all have much shorter ranges. Has anyone tried 4 Tarantulas on the nose of the Warden?
 

Cherokeedog

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Wish that would be possible, but you can't mount that combo on a Vanguard.

- the top turret accepts even size 2 weapons, but you need someone else to shoot it;
- nose guns cannot be replaced with anything else right now; it's sort of a special mount;
- the hardpoint under the nose can only fit one gun; it does allow though up to size 5.
 

Shadow Reaper

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--Yes, I know you need a second player but I expected this. I am just trying to give him or her something to do past ewar functions at greater range.
--I heard that about the nose guns but thought the had finally changed that. It is disappointing that CIG would single out individual ships and components and tell us we can't change them. Lets hope for a policy change there.
-- was told there is a special mount to put two S4's on fixed, bu at present the Omni XII's are not in game.
 

Cherokeedog

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--Yes, I know you need a second player but I expected this. I am just trying to give him or her something to do past ewar functions at greater range.
--I heard that about the nose guns but thought the had finally changed that. It is disappointing that CIG would single out individual ships and components and tell us we can't change them. Lets hope for a policy change there.
-- was told there is a special mount to put two S4's on fixed, bu at present the Omni XII's are not in game.
They did say they are going to improve the weaponry and its flexibility of choice. They just didn't get to it yet. I'm assuming this will happen at the time when the Harbinger and the Sentinel will get hangar ready. So that combo may be possible then. I certainly hope so, 'cause right now it's a bit of a hassle to PVP in this ship.
 

CrudeSasquatch

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Didn't read anything except the Title.
I assume boarding will involve... "Crashing my Aurora into the hanger, using pistol to fight way to bridge deck."
 

Shadow Reaper

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I'm more interested to see if and how ships can magnetize to the hull of a much larger one and cut a hole in the hull above a crawlspace or hallway to allow boarding.
CIG has specifically mentioned that there will be demolition charges specifically intended to breech doors, interior and exterior. It will be interesting to see if one can use them to blow the cockpit hatch or glass off a bridge and enter there as well. I have not heard anything about cutting through the hull, but that would be optimal on larger ships where you don't want them to know where you're entering.
 
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