Crazy Archeology

[Shadow Reaper]

So, here’s a thread for people to argue for their pet theories concerning the historic find that went public last Friday.

In case you missed it, a couple guys created a new kind of remote sensing using Synthetic Aperature Radar (the receiver is moving so acts as an extremely wide aperature) and apparently looking at tiny movements in the subject, that is able to do fantastically sharp imaging of objects deep underground. The test case for this new technology was to look at the pyramids in Egypt, and under the second largest one, Khafre; they claim they can see construction going down over 750 meters, including 8 600+ meter columns arraigned in 2 rows of 4, sitting atop 2, 80 meter sided cubes.

And that’s not all. The columns supposedly have some helical stairway type structures running around them, plus there are 5 new rooms beneath the pyramid and 1 new room discovered inside the pyramid.

Crazy.

Experts are quickly responding by calling this all “fake news”, but this hasn’t stopped dozens of lay archeologists and conspiracy theorists from heralding this as the greatest archeological discovery in history.

It’s all pretty intense. I do not want to categorize it myself but will instead wait for a serious appraisal. I’ll instead just note a few things.

Internet banter on this is insane, with many making all sorts of unwarranted assertions. People are claiming the structure is two miles deep when the research paper clearly says it is less than a kilometer deep. However if there is a fashioned structure there almost a kilometer deep, that is still shocking.

All of the crazy is coming out about acoustic generators, free energy devices of the anti-deluvian giants, nephilim, annunaki, space aliens, etc. The variety of theories proposing to explain these unverified claims is astonishing.

There is a lengthy research paper but it remains to be seen whether the details like helically wrapped 600+ meter columns are actually in the data. I skimmed the paper and didn’t see it at all.

This seems to me the first order issue: find out if the scientists’ interpretation of the data is reasonable, or quixotic. If reasonable, then second order is to replicate their work.

Snopes is reporting this is all fake, but their link to the actual paper is suspiciously broken. Given Snopes abysmal record on such issues, this actually mitigates for something real here (though I am not saying I believe anything here, I am agnostic.)

Anyway, here’s a place to post your most cherished theories, facts and opinions. It’s all good fun.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

It must be Atlantis down there with alien unlimited power tech!

edit: effing iphone bottom bar thingy...


On a serious note: why the hell is it that there are these fantastical things supposedly discovered around and below the pyramids and such locations like every 5 years, yet never actually physically checked? It takes like 50 local workers with some effing shovels and a weeks pay! It's not that hard or expensive!
Heard the same about giant cities buried beneath the rain forests have been discovered recently. Why aren't we already there digging furiously if it's a true archeological discovery?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

IIRC, it was Edgar Cayce of Christian Science cult fame, who prophesied there was a hidden chamber beneath and between the paws of the Sphinx. Decades later someone claimed to have found it with ground penetrating radar. There was a claim the Egyptian government forbade excavation based upon dark Illuminati type reasons until a real archeologist used ground penetrating radar and showed there was nothing there.

At least thats what I recall of the story. I’m sure someone will say I got it wrong.

I will own I think the arguments I have heard about the Sphinx being much older than Egypt have some weight. If you look for yourself, claims the Sphinx is water eroded rather than wind eroded seem to have substance, and the Sahara is over 4,500 years old. Water erosion in that region should be at least 4,500 years ago—as old as history. Writing only goes back that far.

Certainly claims the pyramids are likewise prehistoric have weight. The tomb theory is weak. We have never found anything like a tomb in them. All the tombs are elsewhere, and made in recorded history, and include writing. There is no writing in the pyramids. Their construction is completely unlike the tombs.

And no, the Bible doesn’t say the Jews built the pyramids when they were 400 years in slavery in Egypt. It says they were constructing with clay bricks and the pyramids are not made of clay.

On the cities in rainforests issue: back in the 90’s NASA started to get data on these with their satellites, especially in Belize; and came to an agreement with the government in Belize to not disclose the data so as to safeguard the sites for academic excavation. They have apparently found much more since that time and one supposes they have made the same agreements with other governments. Excavation is expensive, and takes years, so what you get are decades of claims with sporadic results. It can be annoying these things don’t go faster but that’s how science gets done—slow and plodding, in order to employ people. There’s so much ready to be excavated it’s enough to keep the real archeologists busy for decades, and then there are all the underwater sites.

The most excavated part of the world, Biblical lands; always has vast areas waiting for excavation. So we have this problem everywhere. It’s mostly a funding issue.

Gobekli Tepe in Turkey is a great example. Claims are it is 12,000 years old, but unorthodox and unique methods were used to date it, and it may be much younger. In any case it is old. It is not a city. It is not evidence of civilization, since there is no writing nor sewers. It is however impressive, and its excavation is almost non-existent. Only 5% has been excavated the last two decades. That’s because it generates impressive tourist money just the way it is. The Turks can’t risk ruining their cash cow by dispelling the mystery.

I recently heard there is a new find in Angkor Wat made by satellite, and also that NASA is using ice penetrating radar like that designed for the now defunded Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter (JIMO), that is searching Antarctica for prehistoric construction, but I have not seen validation of this. Could be net-puke nonsense. I have not seen any JIMO like spacecraft even floated to NASA apart from the one I tried to sell NIAC about 8 years ago.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

IIRC, it was Edgar Cayce of Christian Science cult fame, who prophesied there was a hidden chamber beneath and between the paws of the Sphinx. Decades later someone claimed to have found it with ground penetrating radar. There was a claim the Egyptian government forbade excavation based upon dark Illuminati type reasons until a real archeologist used ground penetrating radar and showed there was nothing there.

At least thats what I recall of the story. I’m sure someone will say I got it wrong.

I will own I think the arguments I have heard about the Sphinx being much older than Egypt have some weight. If you look for yourself, claims the Sphinx is water eroded rather than wind eroded seem to have substance, and the Sahara is over 4,500 years old. Water erosion in that region should be at least 4,500 years ago—as old as history. Writing only goes back that far.

Certainly claims the pyramids are likewise prehistoric have weight. The tomb theory is weak. We have never found anything like a tomb in them. All the tombs are elsewhere, and made in recorded history, and include writing. There is no writing in the pyramids. Their construction is completely unlike the tombs.

And no, the Bible doesn’t say the Jews built the pyramids when they were 400 years in slavery in Egypt. It says they were constructing with clay bricks and the pyramids are not made of clay.

On the cities in rainforests issue: back in the 90’s NASA started to get data on these with their satellites, especially in Belize; and came to an agreement with the government in Belize to not disclose the data so as to safeguard the sites for academic excavation. They have apparently found much more since that time and one supposes they have made the same agreements with other governments. Excavation is expensive, and takes years, so what you get are decades of claims with sporadic results. It can be annoying these things don’t go faster but that’s how science gets done—slow and plodding, in order to employ people. There’s so much ready to be excavated it’s enough to keep the real archeologists busy for decades, and then there are all the underwater sites.

The most excavated part of the world, Biblical lands; always has vast areas waiting for excavation. So we have this problem everywhere. It’s mostly a funding issue.

Gobekli Tepe in Turkey is a great example. Claims are it is 12,000 years old, but unorthodox and unique methods were used to date it, and it may be much younger. In any case it is old. It is not a city. It is not evidence of civilization, since there is no writing nor sewers. It is however impressive, and its excavation is almost non-existent. Only 5% has been excavated the last two decades. That’s because it generates impressive tourist money just the way it is. The Turks can’t risk ruining their cash cow by dispelling the mystery.

I recently heard there is a new find in Angkor Wat made by satellite, and also that NASA is using ice penetrating radar like that designed for the now defunded Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter (JIMO), that is searching Antarctica for prehistoric construction, but I have not seen validation of this. Could be net-puke nonsense. I have not seen any JIMO like spacecraft even floated to NASA apart from the one I tried to sell NIAC about 8 years ago.

It's about damned time someone builds a scaffolding next to the pyramids, covers it in metal sheets, and than just xrays the whole thing from the other side... lol


For real though, I always found ancient Egypt fascinating, both in school and outside. I was pretty damn good at their gods, rituals, names of stuff and whatnot. Sadly that's something I forgot a lot more about than I know now.
I had family living in Cairo in the 70s for a couple of years for work, I got photos of em standing on the pyramids and leaning against the Sphinx, such things that would be impossible today. They kept up with some of the discoveries there and told me lots of stories about it when I was a kid, hence my interest and the reason I heard a lot about the mysterious supposed chambers, missing crypts and whatnot. These theories find their ways into the media even today, In the new Indiana Jones game there is a chamber and a full on maze of catacombs beneath the Sphinx, but not between it's legs. It really is just a mound of funnily shaped dirty rocks afterall.
I haven't kept up with this stuff in the past 10+ years, and never looked into the erosion theory, sounds interesting if true.

About the funding and scientific method: why is it the way it is? It makes no sense to me.
Actually, the only part that does make some sense is about Gobekli Tepe being kept as a mystery for profit.

Edit: deleted a huger wall of text, trying to condense my thoughts, something I find very hard.
My points were:
- archeology sounds like it's still living in the early days, funded by adventurous aristocrats for fame, done by egotistical professors for a living as long as possible while they look for the big find. This archaic approach leads nowhere. DOGE it. This mentaility needs to be erased. If the argument is "how cares, only money talks" then make it into a proper business.
- Most of these discoveries are in shitholes. We got tech. They got cheap labor. They need money. Tourists exist. Travel is cheap, fast and easy. If not to these certain locations, make it so. They just recently bulldozed a rainforest for a green summit so I don't see why we can't... Investors exist, and they fund dumber things without questions asked.
Hire private army if needed for safety, third world tourist hubs have been doing it for decades, it works.
Want to do it fast and safe for the findings? Give a KUKA robot a brush and get it to work... Again, we have the tech, utilize it!
Politics and religion come into play I guess. This is dumb but expected. Money talks, the right people can be bought. Put up a 5 star tent-hotel with a pool next door to the major excavations, that type of thing is all the rage these days.



TLDR.: Ancient Egypt is cool!
Archeology needs to stop grifting, cos it's not 1900 anymore. It's not fucking rocket science, at least the practical part isn't. With todays tech, globalization, and bored billionaires running around looking for investments, there is zero logical reason why we shouldn't excavate everything in like 5-10 years tops... Make it an attraction, then the scientists can work in peace while the tourists eat their bigmacs behind the glass like in a zoo.

Unless, all the conspiracies are true and the govmtns are stopping the scientists on purpose, because they don't want us to know that there is something out there...


a little bit unrelated: Another thing that popped in from memory is seeing a video by a scientist, a woman with a German name I think, talking about how in her field (physics maybe?) she was being "asked nicely" not to publish findings, because it would ruin the grift of others. Basically a huge amount of scientists are just doing research into things they already know the definitive answer to, and putting out fake results and papers just to make a living for the longest possible time. If true, I feel like archeology is doing the same thing here.

 

[Rear_Intruder]

It rains in Egypt, I have been there four times. The photo with the coach in it shows a storm when I was going East from Cairo. We had to stop as the road got blocked by a flash flood, some of my other pictures show clouds.

The sphinx is carved out of limestone that was in situ, limestone is water soluble and erodes in rainwater. Therefore the erosion may not be unusual.

You say that "We have never found anything like a tomb in them." I have been in the pyramid of Khafre/Chephren there is a large sarcophagus inside.

The tombs in the Valley of the Kings are from a different period and are covered in hieroglyphics. I do not recall any at the Pyramids as you mention.

I could not resist pictures of me sat on the Pyramid of Khafre/Chephren. One I took from the top of Abu Simbel (which I though was a better experience than Giza). Swimming in the Nile and some of the sphinx. All from 1997.

There may be a huge structure under them, but I would not bet on it.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Another thing that popped in from memory is seeing a video by a scientist, a woman with a German name I think, talking about how in her field (physics maybe?) she was being "asked nicely" not to publish findings, because it would ruin the grift of others. Basically a huge amount of scientists are just doing research into things they already know the definitive answer to, and putting out fake results and papers just to make a living for the longest possible time. If true, I feel like archeology is doing the same thing here.

I think you’re thinking of Sabine Hossenfelder. I follow her on YouTube. She is a good scientist, but has taken a lot of crap for her seemingly blind acceptance of the Climate Change narrative. As result, she has started debunking the worst Climate Change pseudo-science and taken some reproach for this. Her objections however stand on their own. It’s pretty easy to find a bad climate science paper, but refuting peer reviewed and accepted papers that are obviously and stupidly wrong will not win friends and influence people.

Apart from that, there is a large and growing group of voices critical of modern physics. Most theoretical “research” in physics is in String Theory, and one of the features of that theory is no one has ever found a way to validate nor falsify the theory, so critics rightly ask if String Theorists are actually doing science at all.

It is certainly true there has been very little progress in physics in the last century, and especially in the last half century. With all the people working in the field, it is curious and does make one think the field was hijacked by String Theory.

String Theorist generally have the attitude that their work is important and should continue, and that they don’t owe the public supporting them authentic answers. One can see why that is being contested.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

You say that "We have never found anything like a tomb in them." I have been in the pyramid of Khafre/Chephren there is a large sarcophagus inside

My mistake. Thanks for the correction. I don’t know how I accepted that statement without checking. That’s a huge ooops.

About rain in the Sahara, the statements I have heard were that there hasn’t been sufficient rain in that region for significant water erosion. I’ve heard that now from a couple different geologists so tend to lean in that direction. Also, one claim is the head of the Sphinx was recarved into what we see now by the Egyptians and that originally it likely had another figure there since the head is too small for the body. That seems possible to me.

There hasn’t been any peer review of the paper that is the basis for all these new claims, but most academics are dismissing it out of hand. So really we need to see some serious analysis and replication. I didn’t see anything in the paper remotely like the claims made.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

It rains in Egypt, I have been there four times. The photo with the coach in it shows a storm when I was going East from Cairo. We had to stop as the road got blocked by a flash flood, some of my other pictures show clouds.

The sphinx is carved out of limestone that was in situ, limestone is water soluble and erodes in rainwater. Therefore the erosion may not be unusual.

You say that "We have never found anything like a tomb in them." I have been in the pyramid of Khafre/Chephren there is a large sarcophagus inside.

The tombs in the Valley of the Kings are from a different period and are covered in hieroglyphics. I do not recall any at the Pyramids as you mention.

I could not resist pictures of me sat on the Pyramid of Khafre/Chephren. One I took from the top of Abu Simbel (which I though was a better experience than Giza). Swimming in the Nile and some of the sphinx. All from 1997.

There may be a huge structure under them, but I would not bet on it.

Come to think of it, weren't the pyramids covered in polished limestone? Shouldn't those have water erosion as well? Anyways, nice photos!

I think you’re thinking of Sabine Hossenfelder. I follow her on YouTube. She is a good scientist, but has taken a lot of crap for her seemingly blind acceptance of the Climate Change narrative. As result, she has started debunking the worst Climate Change pseudo-science and taken some reproach for this. Her objections however stand on their own. It’s pretty easy to find a bad climate science paper, but refuting peer reviewed and accepted papers that are obviously and stupidly wrong will not win friends and influence people.

Apart from that, there is a large and growing group of voices critical of modern physics. Most theoretical “research” in physics is in String Theory, and one of the features of that theory is no one has ever found a way to validate nor falsify the theory, so critics rightly ask if String Theorists are actually doing science at all.

It is certainly true there has been very little progress in physics in the last century, and especially in the last half century. With all the people working in the field, it is curious and does make one think the field was hijacked by String Theory.

String Theorist generally have the attitude that their work is important and should continue, and that they don’t owe the public supporting them authentic answers. One can see why that is being contested.

Yep, that's her.

As I was reading up on the pyramid construction theories the pattern I see is prof X comes up with a viable theory that makes some practical sense and has some legs to stand on (like the internal ramps theory with serious cad modeling behind it) and then everyone else looses their shit and calls it baseless and silly, without presenting any valid reasoning against the theory, because they'd lose face it it were true. None seem to care about finding the truth, and rather works against it, unless it's them who finds it...

The more I read about these supposed scientists in archeology, the more I feel like this field needs to be corporatized, which not something I ever thought I'd advocate for.

 

[Rear_Intruder]

Come to think of it, weren't the pyramids covered in polished limestone? Shouldn't those have water erosion as well? Anyways, nice photos!

Good point, first hit on google was this, although weathering could mean processes other than rain.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

 

[Sky Captain]

On Sphinx erosion, while I do not rely on Wikipedia as a 'source document' for anything it does provide a helpful introduction and summary of the issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis

As a professional geologist here, reviewing the various stories I'd say I'm still in the camp of those who believe that the most logical explanation is most likely: That the erosion did occur by water, but not because Egypt was submerged like Atlantis or in a 'great flood'. Water-caused erosion features may just mean that precipitation - and precipitation infiltration - weakened the rock over the millennia resulted in the erosional features seen now. As seen elsewhere on the planet. Certainly, wind erosion - with entrained sand battering the Sphinx - has contributed as well.

The reality is that man carves things in rock thinking they will stand the test of time unscathed. But that has almost never been the case. One simply needs to walk through a cemetery looking for stones placed in the 1700s or even early 1800s to see the devastation that even a century of precipitation can cause on carved rock, let alone multiple millennia .... the degree to which the erosion of these - and our much larger stone monuments - erode typically is more related to rock mineralogy, rock hardness, and breakdown caused by precipitation-induced chemical changes or direct weathering than it is an all-out one-time natural disaster.

Not that disasters don't happen. They do. But in the case of the Sphinx, it would have taken a global scale disaster to cause complete inundation of the Giza plateau in the last few thousand years - not just as a one time event - but long enough to cause persistent weathering of the rock, to cause the erosion seen on the Sphinx. And for such an erosional issue to be ... eons old ... that the erosion occurred earlier on the geologic time scale (when the African continent was positioned differently on the globe) isn't really sustained by the archaeological record of any civilization.

IMHO the other Sphinx erosion theories are interesting but remain in the realm of fringe speculation without more hard evidence of a massive environmental event not just at the Sphinx, but much more regionally. A major 'event' that eroded the Sphinx would be recorded in the rock record at more than one location.

Cheers!

 

[Sky Captain]

On the buried vaults topic for the pyramids:

Makes sense to me that there could be undiscovered tombs. I think the probability of finding that is higher than the Lagina brothers have finding treasure on Oak Island. The SAR technology sounds interesting, but I'll hold my judgement until I see it being used and reported in scenarios where the targets are known and its results can be validated. Let's see the benchmark cases, then judge its usefulness beyond in places like the pyramids.

Even if there are deeper chambers theories that they are evidence of the Annunaki, visitation from the Klingon Empire, or advanced technology for making an unknown form of energy remain in the realm of fun but far-fetched. So far - beyond known indicators of the spirituality of the past civilizations there - no hard evidence of the more 'out there' theories has been found despite centuries of study. If we had found 'hard evidence', every university archaeologist and treasure hunter in the world would be there studying nothing but that. Instead, we're still studying iron spikes on Oak Island.