Stealth Recon

Shadow Reaper

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So I'm again digesting the numbers on the Stealth Recon role and thought I should report my findings concerning what craft are really best for this. My findings are interesting. Let me start by reminding what the stealth recon role is all about and then explain some numbers.

The goal of all recon is to gauge an enemy's presence and strength inside a specific region. Stealth recon is to do this without detection, which would tip an aggressor's hand as to what one intends. While normal recon can keep a fleet safe, stealth recon enables a fleet to make good choices about attacking an enemy unawares. This primary role of recon includes things like spotting for other ships' long range weapons, especially including the S9 and S10 torps of the Tally, Eclipse and Polaris. Best data still says the Seeker IX and Typhoon IX of the Eclipse and Tally have almost 50 km range, and one part of recon is to spot for these long range weapons.

Secondary to this can be to remove an enemy's recon ability at the onset of a battle. Tertiary can be to act as a decoy. A good stealth recon capability not only gathers intel but denies this to the opponent, and can even be used to misdirect an opponent's assets during an engagement.

In order to evaluate what ships can and cannot perform these duties, there needs to be a baseline to compare against. In the case of fighting UEE ships, that baseline is probably the Gladius, Ghost Hornet, Arrow, or even a Buccaneer. However, against Vanduul the requirements are all higher than against these recon craft, for the Vanduul Blade is faster than all of them and can chase them down. Certainly you do not want to provide a decoy function with a ship slower than the Blade, as this would end badly. Additionally, it's also worth noting that the Blade is designed around very little shield since it has such a strong hull intended for ramming, so Blades can be flown well without their single shield enabled. Blades are also very heavily armed, and make interesting and challenging opponents in the recon game. Thus knowing nothing about what sort of opponent one might have in the future, examining how to cope with the capabilities of the Blade can be instructive.

So lets have a look. The Blade has 6,250 hull, 5,400 shield, movement of 290 and afterburn 1,240. This makes it faster than every ship thus far listed. There are however two ships that are faster than the Blade that could be pressed into Stealth Recon service: the Mustang Omega, and the Razor EX.

So this is really an apologetic where i am recommending as I have in the past about the use of the EX. Lets compare the Blade and EX in how they would operate in the recon role. Much of this also applies to the Omega, but the Omega is much larger, with much larger Radar Cross Section (RCS) and cannot fit in ships hangars in numbers the EX can.

Flying stock and with weapons and shields off, the Blade has an EM signature of 1,667. We don't know if the AI will do this, but lets plan for the worst. The EX once fully equipped for this mission has an EM signature of 300. That difference, between 300 and 1,667 is the place where the EX needs to thrive and exploit. That's where recon pilots need to be--in sight of their opponents without being in their sights. That gap--lets call it the Scan Gap--is the thing stealth recon wants to exploit in order to obtain useful intel about the battlefield, without revealing their presence. The larger this gap is, the greater recon pilots can exploit their advantage. Additionally there are the numbers for IR and for RCS, which only applies when a player or NPC does some active pinging, or performs a hard burn that will light up the skies with a brilliant IR signature. We can say little about these two but lets look at this little.

RCS is a linear function of target area. The EX has much lower RCS than the Blade. IR is a function of heat generated by the entire ship, and is most effected by using the engines. All ships carry two cooler slots for a reason. One needs to be left on to cool the ship if it is maneuvering at all. In stealth mode, the secondary cooler should be switched off until it is needed, and when switched on, trades IR for EM. Because this is so, stealth ships should in general have a small, low EM cooler as primary and a second, super high IR dump cooler as secondary. You want to be able to perform a hard burn, then dump all that heat very quickly and resume normal stealth operation. These are the stealth trades CIG has already built into the game that most players still do not appreciate nor apply.*

So what does this look like--what am I recommending? Something like this:

Razor EX with:

1) Whatever guns the pilot chooses. Until you're involved in trying to remove the enemy's recon ability, they don't matter, and when a battle commences and you try to remove their intel ability, best is each pilot has what they really want for that job. Note that this role we're here considering does not include attacking anything other than recon vessels like the Blade. Make your decisions based upon your target. Most times I would choose the Strife Mass Drivers since these will penetrate the hard Vanduul shell and do damage, and that damage does not repair when you're forced to disengage the way it does with shields. Kill the ship, not the shields.

2) Missile rack--stock. These are almost useless and really just to harass your opponent.

3) FR-66 shields, left off when not engaging. Gotta have 'em as they need to absorb the Vandull energy weapons strikes on your tiny craft.

4) Snowblind primary cooler for ultra-low EM signature, and UltraFlow secondary cooler for only when you need to dump heat quickly after a hard engine burn. Switching on this second cooler boosts your IR reduction from 170,00 to 610,000 per second. If you turn it on when you fire up your engines, you should not need to leave it on more than a few sconds after you cut your engine boost, and can then resume stealth if that is your intention.

5) Whatever Q drive is appropriate for the occasion. Stock may be fine.

6) Slipstream powerplant for super stealthy operations.

Out of these, the powerplant and coolers are probably the most important components, and are really what enables the EX to obtain that useful Scan Gap, between 300-1,667. This is where almost all the tiny EX's advantage lies, and if the Blade has its shield and weapons enabled (likely with AI), that Gap grows to 300-7,779. This is the kind of Scan Gap one can exploit and obtain huge benefits.

Final thoughts on the tertiary mission--flying as DECOY. The simplest way to get attention as a decoy is light up your afterburners. If your goal is to draw assets out of a region in order to obtain another goal, say bring in your bombers; you want to be able to do three things. First, get their attention. Second, lead the opponent where you want them. Third, evade and distract. The decoy role thus places the highest demands on the recon unit for speed (especially without afterburner), and while you could perform stealth recon without superior speed, you cannot adequately decoy an opponent without superior speed.

So just sharing--these are the reasons I have recommended the EX for everyone to consider. It's an expensive ship, and it is not loaded up with lots of weapons, so some will hesitate to invest themselves in learning to fly it well. IMHO, the dash is too high, and the field of view too restricted for best combat. However, given the mission of stealth recon, I don't think there is another ship that comes close and surely none of these others are so hard to hit in combat and so easy to carry aboard other ships. I think someone showed we can put 5 EX in the Carrack--three in the hangar and two in the garage? Whatever it is, you certainly can't do that with a Mustang.

* Players often say that scan and stealth are not yet in game. This is only partially true. For now, EM and IR sensors are not swapable components, and so relate only to the size of a ship's radar array. What this means is ships' sensitivity to EM and IR vary only as much as their radar array's vary. It's worth noting here that thus far only two ships are planned to have unusual radar arrays that depart from their ship size. The Apollo has a Large array despite it will have the dimensions of a Medium ship, and the Polaris will have a Capitol array despite it will be the dimensions of a Large ship. Doesn't matter. Neither of these ships are in game yet, and by the time they are, odds are good we'll have real EM warfare with swapable component EM and IR sensors.
 
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Phil

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Here is my opinion, and don't take it personal lol.

I don't get the point of having a smaller ship with a smaller signature if he has to get 3x's as close to do the job of a normal recon ship, yes you could get really small ships with zero fuel tanks, small radars etc... but if a larger ship can do the same job and be 3x's further out and still do it undetected I don't see the advantage in this scenario.

Stealth and recon don't mean the same thing, they don't require both to complete their mission. I think some things were left out of these assessments, like larger ships have better and far longer reaching scanning ability, now if your talking recon by sight, I do not think this is the best strategy for a fleet. Maybe smaller engagements for sure, but the larger fleet action I would not advise it, if the ship gets discovered there is a good chance it wont make it back to the fleet and you've lost your advantage anyways. What about the range of the EX, I mean I would personally want a larger ship that can make multiple jumps and extend the recon range, smaller recon ship limits the fleets response ten fold if he is discovered.

There is no way an EX is going to be able to accomplish a recon mission as well as a ship with 2 or 3 times the size scanning components, their range is higher, their scanners will give more detail and yet they should be able to stay out of range and perform recon missions. The only exception being that they themselves were discovered or located by the enemy fleets own recon ships which is the same possibility of an EX having being located, its a chance and risk every fleet and recon action takes.

Stealth to me has nothing to do with recon, yes you can combine the two that is fine but the recon mission does not require stealth to be effective and complete their missions. Now there may be special situations that your setup will do very well in, as for me I would stick with the tried and true standard recon, low signature, big radar and the best pilots you can find, these to me are the keys of good fleet recon tactics.

Anyways, just some thoughts and maybe I misunderstood your example, I am no expert by any means and I love hashing out these hypothetical scenarios!! It only makes us better players in the end.
 

AntiSqueaker

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Ideally in the future we'll be able to tweak and upgrade our scanners for longer range and more detailed scans (at the expense of other stuff, always a trade off).

To tack on to what Phil was talking about, a Terrapin sitting 5x further out than a Sabre Raven might be a better choice assuming it has the eventual scan resolution to kick the pants off of a small ship with its Large radar dish.

It'd be nice for the Herald to be able to use those big broadcast dishes on the sides as passive or active listening as well. Herald definitely has the power and space to run those, and the big engines under the hood to get the hell out of dodge if necessary.
 

Shadow Reaper

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If I understand your objections, I sympathize. There is as of yet, no standard unit to measure scan ability (sensitivity), for RCS, EM or IR, but all of these are measured in energy over distance. So for example, joules per meter is such a unit of measure, and would be some ridiculously small number like E-12 J/M. Actually, in the real world the figure is distance squared, since all radiation signatures and decay are inverse quadratic, but never mind that for now. CIG said something about making it linear in our universe so we need to wait and see. We don't have a standard and won't until full EM warfare is released and all the details of EM and IR are released. This is frustrating and it if weren't so, we could talk about this more plainly, citing the real numbers. However. . .

We know that some ships will have better sensors than others of the same class, and that the classes are themselves different. The Apollo, Polaris, Terrapin and Hornet Tracker are examples. We also know that to be useful at stealth recon, each of these need to minimize their own signature in order to avoid detection of a similar object at the same range. If you want to see and not be seen, you have to optimize around stealth. The entire game dynamic is based upon this, and very few people use it despite it has been in game for a couple years now.

Is there a preferred size of scan that ought to work best? We do not know the details but we already know stealthed ships can see large ships from fantastic distances where they cannot be seen. Watch a few Eclipse vids. I'm reminded of an Eclipse vid I watched about a year ago, where the Eclipse locked onto a Connie at 23 km, and was not detectd by the Connie until he was at 2 km. It really makes that much difference, so don't presume you're better off flying recon in a larger ship unless that ship is likewise stealthed. (The Sentinel and Terrapin have Medium radar, and the Terrepin has 3 coolers!, so perhaps these will make better recon platforms, but we don't yet know. I do know you can't get the Terrapin's EM down much below 1,000 and the EX goes down to 300, so less than 1/3 the signature. The Terrapin does not appear to have Void armor nor a box around the reactior to give it an especially low signature. Could be it has batteries and is intended to be shut down entirely?) Little stealth ships will always be able to spot big ones before they are spotted by them, and ships of the same size with smaller signature can likewise avoid detection.
 
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Phil

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Yes but you are talking about an Eclipse (and I have watched the videos as well) vs a Connie, if were talking fleet vs fleet here the stealth won't be going up against Connie's they will have to maneuver against other stealth and recon ships that we are describing, so getting in that close may be a lot more difficult than an Eclipse sneaking up on a Connie. Say a Terrapin sitting powered down as soon as that Eclipse passes him or gets to close the Eclipse may not even see the Terrapins sig if he is just running sensors. What about mine play, mines will be harder to detect as well, a EZ may not even detect a mine or a Terrapin.

So many scenarios to consider, its not that your scenario isn't good or wont work, I am sure it will in certain situations just as most recon and stealth scenarios will, its how and when you use them that makes them effective and deciding how to implement your tools at any given time is what makes a commander deadly and usually determines the outcome of a battle.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I think all your examples are of scenarios that are a problem for any stealth recon mission, regardless of what you send. There is always a possibility of being detected. The choices of scout craft remain however. You could choose a Hornet Tracker, and with that Long Look radar you'd presumably get good intel. The Tracker is actually even more EM stealthy than the EX. However, it is slow enough that if it runs into Vanduul scouts, it will fighting for its life. You can't quantum away if you're spotting for the Polaris S10 torps, and without superior speed, a scout would have a lot of trouble staying near enough to a target to light it up. The Tracker also cruises at 2/3 the speed so scouts much less area in a given period of time. Those are the kinds of choices we have. No fleet should go out into the field without scouts, and especially if you're hunting opposing fleets, Vanduul Void Bombers or Marauders with your Polaris, I think you really do want speed and stealth. The really nice thing about the EX is several of them will fit in a small hangar like the Polaris, whereas probably the Tracker you'll get just one.

What I would not do with an attacking force like the Polaris hunting Vanduul, is use recon that is not both fast and stealthy.

If your fleet is purely defensive, like escorts surrounding a Hull E, then you don't need stealth at all and you might decide to use Sabres. That's a different discussion entirely.
 

Phil

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First we need to determine how close an EX would have to get to a fleet to get the information needed to be an effective scout, how long would that ship need to be in the area to gather all the information needed, again it will have the smallest radars, smallest and weakest sensors, sure its fast and stealthy but you have to get seriously close to get the information and spend more time in that area due to its limited component size and power which puts it at high risk. Again I see zero benefit in most situations to using a fast stealth ship that is not designed for stealth or recon to be a fleets eyes and ears. And for me if I wanted to use stealth ships to do my recon I would go with an Eclipse or Ghost as their designed from the ground up to do that job.

Again not saying your setup wont work or isn't good I just don't see the benefits out weighing the larger more effective recon vessels designed for that purpose. One instance I think your setup might be a better choice is having to find a specific target in a fleet or area with high traffic and you need to pin point a target specifically, then I can see a small stealth recon ship like this being an advantage, going in and pin pointing a target that may be at the rear of the fleet or being defended like a HVT, then this ship might be perfect. But for simple recon, to simply find a fleet and get the general makeup of that fleet I will take the larger more effective sensors every time, again I think this gives you more reaction time, more distance and creates a safety bubble between your fleet or group and anything around you, their range and accuracy will be 5x's if not more than that EX.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Well, the EX is designed for stealth and recon. That's why it is an EX. Note too, the Eclipse while stealthier, carries the same small array. If you want a better array for a small ship you need a turret, as with the Tracker, and the Long Look uses a parabolic dish so it is only longer because it scans a specific portion of the sky rather than all directions at once.

I am all for using larger ships if they show a distinct advantage, but you can't then carry them into theater with the Large jump drive of a Polaris, or the Cap drive of an Idris. You've got to fly them in and they will be slower. The Apollo has a Large array but a Medium jump drive, so it can't keep up with the Polaris or Idris. It can keep up with a flight of Vanguard.

I think though, you've missed my point. There isn't a "go look, see and retire" scenario here if you plan to strike at very long range with S10 torps. Your spotter needs to stay to light the target. If that spotter can't outrun ships like Blades, it can't stay once it's been discovered, while an EX would have very little trouble staying withing 20 km of a Void Bomber or Marauder, even after it is discovered.

Speed has huge benefits. In general, to bring as much force to a conflict as possible you want to choose the largest ships for any given role, but the one advantage of small ships is their speed and maneuverability, which is its own kind of defense.

I am super interested to see if the Apollo can be fit with a Large Long Look radar and stealth. That would seem to me the perfect match with a wing of Vanguard, especially if accompanied by a MIS. One presumes this would yield Cap class scanning inside a specific area, with artillery support, aboard ships that could defend themselves against Blades and retire if they got too close, but again you are talking about retiring rather than finishing the fight. IMHO, if you want to fight long distance with Torps, you need something that can light the target regardless of whether it is discovered, and to do that you have to be faster than a Blade.

An alternative but risky solution might be to use a Ghost Tracker with overclocked engines. I'm not sure what the percent boost is from overclocking, and I've no idea what the percent chance failure would be on a single mission, but if you could get a Ghost Tracker's speed up above the Blade, that would solve every issue save carrying them into theater. I don't think folks appreciate the huge benefit of tiny size here. You can fit one Hornet into a Polaris bay, or at least 4 (could be 6) EX. Which would you rather have scouting for you?
 
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zelange

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For what I remind the sabre raven look like to be the perfect fit for those kind of mission.





"Ideal for intelligence missions" ,"increased data storage " or "utilize the new ship for survey-and-report runs.

The EX is designed for stealth, but probably lack the storage space to gather large amount of information, the raven look like to be designed for it.
With 7 "storages box" labelled on the raven, it might be a very good option.

 

Shadow Reaper

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IMHO, the Raven is he sexiest ship in game, but it is very slightly slower than a Blade (which is fatal), and under full stealth still has an EM sig five times that of an EX. Honestly, if you don't plan to use the EMP, the Raven is seldom a good choice. The standard Sabre is a much better choice, since its stealth is far greater. It is still however, significantly slower than a Blade. Against UEE ships the Sabre and Tracker are probably your best scouts.

BTW, for random hunting expeditions, a Ghost Tracker surrounded by Gladiators, all fit with the same Slipstream/Snowblind/LightFire combo, makes an incredible strike group. They can't outrun Blades, but they don't need to. Put a team like that in Void Armor and sign me up. It is a terrible cheat you can't put the Long Look radar on the Gladiator.
 
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zelange

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IMHO, the Raven is he sexiest ship in game, but it is very slightly slower than a Blade (which is fatal), and under full stealth still has an EM sig five times that of an EX. Honestly, if you don't plan to use the EMP, the Raven is seldom a good choice. The standard Sabre is a much better choice, since its stealth is far greater. It is still however, significantly slower than a Blade. Against UEE ships the Sabre and Tracker are probably your best scouts.

BTW, for random hunting expeditions, a Ghost Tracker surrounded by Gladiators, all fit with the same Slipstream/Snowblind/LightFire combo, makes an incredible strike group. They can't outrun Blades, but they don't need to. Put a team like that in Void Armor and sign me up. It is a terrible cheat you can't put the Long Look radar on the Gladiator.
Is the sabre more stealthier than the raven? I mean in the case you want to do recon you will probably only light up one power plant, and maybe one shield, with an emergency button to power all, if a blade came too close just emp and flee.

I am not too worried about speed value, I saw too many flight model, and until they come and says "it's done", i would not.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Is the Sabre more stealthier than the Raven?
It appears so. I test all small ships with the same stealth loadout, under the same conditions: weapons all down, a single Slipstream reactor running, a single Snowblind cooler running, no shields nor Q drive running. So using this baseline, which is as low as I can equip them, you have EM signatures like this:

Tracker: 212
Ghost: 214
Gladiator: 224
Sabre : 249
Eclipse: 249
Razor EX: 300
Raven: 1,552

for comparison, the Blade is: 11,945 (AI does not fly Blades in stealth mode.)

Note however, that the Hardpoint calculator is still wrong pretty often, and is far from the final word. The Ghost v Tracker stats are counterintuitive. If you have an interest to see if the Raven stats are screwed up (perhaps because the EMP does not show in the components list--could this presume it is on?) please consider testing it against a standard Sabre and let us know.

You can see why it is so FUBAR the size 5 Anvil Long Look radar turret from the Tracker will not fit on the size 6 turret of the Gladiator. If anything, the Gladiator ought to be able to carry even better radar than the Hornet. If it did, people would rightly fear the Gladiator the way they do the Vanguard.

BTW, given it is a medium rather than a small ship, the Eclipse's EM stats are great, but it uses all small components. The Sentinel which is a Medium stealth ship with all Medium components, is lucky to get its EM sig below 3,000. So yeah, if you want to sneak around, best is use a small stealth ship, unless you're up against Vanduul scouts that use no stealth capability.
 
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Phil

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Again we are talking fleet activity here, fleets generally move slow that is just how they roll, with a fleet you have refueling, repair, medical and possibly salvage or other industry type ships depending on what the fleets general purpose is, keeping up with a fleet shouldn't be very hard to do for any ship in reality. They generally pace themselves with the slower ships in the fleet, its similar to current fleets in modern times, you don't see destroyers or cruiser leaving carriers or in the old days battleships behind because their slower, they travel as one unit. I don't think bringing recon ships will affect a fleet.

Now on smaller engagements or more specific engagements where you have a single capital or cruiser out to perform a specific task yes absolutely the EX would definitely be the perfect ship for recon it will fit and can be carried and the larger ships can move at their own pace. Or even in a fleet scenario, say the fleet wants to send out a Polaris ahead of the fleet, the Polaris then takes the EX or 5 with it and does an advanced recon mission in a designated area this would be perfect as well, but still I would not supplement the larger recon ships that would be designated to keeping that bubble around your fleet or for extended long range recon.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I don't think bringing recon ships will affect a fleet.
I think because CIG designed the Q Drive dynamic the way they did, what we will find is that some degree of homogeneity is going to be useful. I would not only suggest attack groups all be of the same size, but all use the same Q drive when possible. The smallest ships will require special effort in the form of carriers to get them to a conflict, since their drives would take them weeks to get where a Cap drive can go in hours. This is the biggest reason to break a fleet into strike groups or Battle Groups that fly and fight autonomously.

Medium class Battle Groups could be primarily Vanguard with an Apollo to scan and a MIS for artillery support. I would hesitate to mix any other ships into such a group (and you might need to overclock the MIS's engines), and it would need to have the same movement as the others. Likewise you can have Medium class Tally Battle Groups, which will hit harder, but move slower and probably take more severe casualties unless they strike from great distance. That means other groups need to spot for them. That dependence upon another group's support is a weakness in a battle plan, and is for example why the US Marines have their own Close Air Support ships despite the USAF has that role. Medium class are the slowest Battle Groups, but the type that makes the most effective use of stealth.

Large groups will be Polaris, StarG, Crucible and whatever small ships they can carry. These will have much greater range. Even without a StarG, a lone corvette could range quite broadly, and it has its own S3 missile support (23km range) for its own scouts and spotters. No, I would not send a Crucible into an actual battle, but this is the sort of group needed to comprise a "secret base" which I have great interest in. I had an entire network of secret bases in SWC, right under the noses of the nobles who owned those planets, and it was a real kick to play like that. I want to do the same in Vanduul and Outsider space. BTW, I think the Star G has room in its garage for a couple EX, and certainly the Crucible does. This is the size class group that supplies fuel for all the other groups. There is nothing that will ever make a StarG or crucible stealthy. The only Large ships that have any hope of using stealth, are Corvettes if they hide at great distance and strike using their scouts as spotters.

Cap ship Battle Groups probably should not move with any ships not of their class that do not share their cap drives, but be satisfied with whatever they can carry. That means you do not want to send your Polaris or StarG with your Idris, Javelins, and Krakens. You send them as part of a separate group. These three (Medium, Large and Cap) seem to be the only mobility optimized groups, unless you happen to be attacking across a very short distance and small ships can make the journey alone. Pairing small ships without carrier support is going to make the whole fleet move at a snail's pace and that is not a useful strike force. That's more a target, waiting to be attacked by someone who understands the use of force. There is nothing ever going to make a cap size Battle Group stealthy, but their surprise is enabled by speed.

Of course careful planning can use all three kinds of attack forces in concert. That is a different matter though, and really why there are differences between battle groups, fleets, etc. You can give them whatever names you like. Of one thing we can be sure though--quantum jumps that take days are going to disinterest players. They didn't sign up for that. We need better solutions than that. It is a big deal that the larger a ship is, the faster and farther it can jump. We need to let those ships do that. So don't think so much of fleets creeping along but instead as appearing suddenly.
 
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zelange

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It appears so. I test all small ships with the same stealth loadout, under the same conditions: weapons all down, a single Slipstream reactor running, a single Snowblind cooler running, no shields nor Q drive running. So using this baseline, which is as low as I can equip them, you have EM signatures like this:

Tracker: 212
Ghost: 214
Gladiator: 224
Sabre : 249
Eclipse: 249
Razor EX: 300
Raven: 1,552

for comparison, the Blade is: 11,945 (AI does not fly Blades in stealth mode.)

Note however, that the Hardpoint calculator is still wrong pretty often, and is far from the final word. The Ghost v Tracker stats are counterintuitive. If you have an interest to see if the Raven stats are screwed up (perhaps because the EMP does not show in the components list--could this presume it is on?) please consider testing it against a standard Sabre and let us know.

You can see why it is so FUBAR the size 5 Anvil Long Look radar turret from the Tracker will not fit on the size 6 turret of the Gladiator. If anything, the Gladiator ought to be able to carry even better radar than the Hornet. If it did, people would rightly fear the Gladiator the way they do the Vanguard.

BTW, given it is a medium rather than a small ship, the Eclipse's EM stats are great, but it uses all small components. The Sentinel which is a Medium stealth ship with all Medium components, is lucky to get its EM sig below 3,000. So yeah, if you want to sneak around, best is use a small stealth ship, unless you're up against Vanduul scouts that use no stealth capability.
I see, you probably use hardpoint.io to compare them?
For the raven the emp is probably always on, if you shut down everything on the ship it still show 1050 EM.

I don't have a regular sabre, nor the components you listed so i made some test with the stock raven (you can rent one in arena commander for 0 rec, if you want to test it) in arena commander
cooler : Bracer
Power plant : SonicLite
Shield : Shimmer

i made a little video here :

The first part is me showing the value in stock loadout all powered without and with emp, respectively 4000 em/7135 em.
Around 2:40 i mess with the cooler as i got an error message but it don't look to do very much.
End up around 400 EM with one cooler and 461 with both cooler on even if hardpoint.io show an em value of 45.4 per cooler.

After that i try some manoeuvrer with the ship in low mode, normal thrust i am around 420 em and 445 in boost with the ir suppress activated, i can go up too 500 em whit multiple thrusts vectors boosted without waiting the "cooling".

Pretty sure all those stats will change in future anyway.

Bonus video : I always think all thrusters are gimbal on sabre but on the raven the 4 back don't animate, can someone with a sabre confirm it?
 
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