Turrets

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,671
15,421
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
So, I’m curious if most Americans players agree with Morph here, and I’m curious what people think could form a fix. If you agree turrets need fixing, what makes a fix?

So for instance, the Singe 3 has a speed of 3,000 but a range of only 1,500. Suppose there were a Singe 4 with a range of 2,500 and a Singe 5 with a range of 3,500. If these had appropriately boosted damage I think they’d be much more a threat. Might fix some things short term as a test if they only gave us some new guns.

Or do you perhaps disagree there is a problem to begin with?

View: https://youtu.be/-dD1crNtGGE?si=iWnJf0wRrqtWC8uM
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ayeteeone

FZD

Space Marshal
Nov 22, 2016
1,420
5,312
2,750
RSI Handle
FZD
On PvE side of things, the turrets are in a pretty great spot right now.
I was just doing bounties earlier with my F7A MK II, and while I'm obviously not going to lose to a bunch of NPCs, when the server FPS is good even just an NPC Cutlass Black with its modest dual S3 turret is plenty of scary, yeah you dodge most of the fire but the ones that hit are gonna keep your shields down and you're constantly one mishap away from losing a wing (which costs 120k to repair btw, if you're not going to be cheesy with the insurance, since F7A wings have the S4 guns).
Alternatively, it's really enjoyable manning a turret on like, Starlancer TAC and taking out NPC ships. Those turrets feel quite potent. Well, as long as your pilot is half decent and keeps the ship steady, it's quite difficult to hit anything if your pilot flies the TAC like a fighter.

I'm not entirely convinced we should balance this around PvP.
 

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,164
7,731
2,850
RSI Handle
Thalstan
Turrets in SC should create a benefit. Not just in increased ammo counts, but something tangible beyond that, especially for bigger ships.

My thoughts/proposal
Weapons have a base damage and range, with increased range and/or rate of for larger ships.

So Vehicles and XS ships do normal damage at normal range.
Small ships have a small bonus to turrets 5 percent range increase
Medium ships, including some heavy fighters, the freelancer, cutlass, etc., would get a 5 percent increase to range and rate of fire increase for turret mounted weapon when controlled by a person (either remotely or in cockpit)
A Large ship would get a 10 percent range increase while retaining a 5 percent rate of fire boost
A Capital ship would receive both a 10 percent range and rate of fire boost.

At LARGE and bigger, turret mounted gatling gun type weapons spin constantly once the turret is "active" (crewed AND turned on, or just someone entering the remote turret session) so there is no need to "spin up" the guns first on a turret. This allows almost instant firing of these weapons.

In addition, a turret operator can voluntarily slow the fire rate for projectile type weapons to conserve ammo (and speed it back up to max). This lowers their DPS, but will conserve ammo better when it counts, or fire in "burst" mode shooting 3-5 projectiles for each pull of the trigger (again, a mode setting).

Of course, you can go full auto and spend the whole 9 yards in 3 seconds or so, but that's up to you.

This gives turret operators "reach" and purpose. It also allows some ships the ability to mount heavy projectile weapons and still use them effectively and maintain ammo efficiency.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ayeteeone

Ayeteeone

Space Marshal
Donor
Oct 22, 2018
723
2,824
2,500
RSI Handle
Ayeteeone
This is one of those times where Morph is relaying thoughts and concerns within the community rather than just wingeing. The problem has existed since turrets became playable and CIG has acknowledged it a number of times. The solution that mechanically makes sense is for turrets to have an increase in projectile velocity and a reduction in spread. IIRC it was John Crewe who directly addressed this idea and acknowleded at the time that the tech didn't exist yet to make it happen.

Speeding up the shot would have the effect of reducing the amount of time the Light Fighter has to dodge; there would be a balance point in here somewhere.
A reduction in spread would help increase the hit probability, given that beyond a certain range the best guns for defense will miss even when perfectly aimed.

The third option which is under evaluation is to simply make smaller weapons ineffective against larger ships. The recent announcement about weapon sizes vs the Javelin shows that CIG is still working this problem:
Size 5 full damage.
Size 4 reduced damage.
Size 3 and down, no damage.

This idea could easily scale, and may be necessary for the ships like Heavy Fighters to have meaning. A Vanguard, Glaive or Guardian using size 5 ballistics might be the best choice to selectively take out shield emitters, turrets or components inside but close to the hull.
 
Last edited:

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,671
15,421
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
I agree making small weapons ineffective against larger ships would shift the balance, but if turret gunners can’t hit they will just refuse to sit the turret. Players in turrets need to hit.

Perhaps new guns with increased speed and range, that can’t be powered without a turret?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ayeteeone

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,164
7,731
2,850
RSI Handle
Thalstan
The third option which is under evaluation is to simply make smaller weapons ineffective against larger ships. The recent announcement about weapon sizes vs the Javelin shows that CIG is still working this problem:
Size 5 full damage.
Size 4 reduced damage.
Size 3 and down, no damage.
This is where armor comes in, and where the whole "punch above its weight class" thing CIG has been doing causes problems because they have not had a full fledged plan in place. In essence, they have been winging it too long.

For example, here is a way that they COULD have done it:

Ships also have weapon size capabilities that are generally followed, with a few exceptions:
  • Vehicles and XS ships (snubs) generally carry S1 and S2 weapons. (yes, I know the Nova has a S5)
  • Small ships generally carry S2 and S3 weapons and under
  • Medium ships generally carry S3 and S4 weapons and under
  • Large ships generally carry S4 and S5 weapons and under
  • Capital ships carry S5 and up for anti capital and S4 and under for anti smaller ship.

Armor thickness is size dependent. Larger ships can carry heavier armors and larger ships are built stronger meaning they are innately armored to an extent and grants them immunity to smaller weapons.

Each class of armor reduces damage to certain sized weapons at the following rate. Light, medium, heavy.
This gives the following
ground/Snub armor
Small ship armor
Medium armor
Large Armor
Capital Armor (also includes new armor classes very heavy and extra heavy armor)

Armor can be damaged, so armor needs a health pool. For smaller ships, the armor is a single pool of health.
For large and above ships, armor has 6 faces (top, bottom, each side, front, and rear) (NOTE - if they want, you can have different armor values on different faces)

NOTE: some ships may also "defend" above their weight class. So a Perseus might have capital grade armor

Medium armor for a ship class reduces damage of the smaller size weapon by 50 percent
For every size of weapon above that, the damage is increased by 25 percent up to full damage
For every size of weapon below that, the damage is reduced by 25 percent

Examples:
So for a ground item with Vehicle heavy armor, a S4 and above does full damage, a S3 does 75 percent damage, a S2 does 50 percent damage, a S1 does 25 percent damage, and (most) handheld weapons do no damage)
A vehicle with vehicle medium armor, a S3 does full damage, S2 does 75 percent, S1 50 percent, and S1 25 percent.
A vehicle with light armor and S2 and above does full damage, S1 does 75 percent damage, and handheld weapons do 50 percent
a vehicle with no armor a S1 does full damage, handheld weapons do 75 percent damage.

For a medium ship (freelancer sized)
S6 and above does full damage against heavy armor (and reductions for lower sizes)
S5 and above does full damage against medium armor
S4 and above does full damage against light armor
S3 and above does full damage against no armor

So a medium armored medium ship attacked by a S3 weapon will take 50 percent of the damage from that S3 weapon. (say, from a sabre)..while a hurricane using S4 guns will do 75 percent damage with its size 4

Capital ships with heavy armor S8 and above do full damage
Very heavy needs a S9 to do full damage
Extra Heavy needs a S10 weapon to do full damage and anything S6 or under (including S6 torps) do no damage except to the paint job
A ship like the retribution has superheavy which requires a S11 weapon to do full damage.
A capital ship with no armor still has immunity to S4 and below weapons on it's main health pool

Now, as talked about, armor has a health pool
the damage does is done to armor first. So armor that is taking 50 percent damage and has a 5k health pool will need 10k of damage done to it (10k, at 50 percent is 5k), after which, that armor is damaged beyond effectiveness. After the armor is destroyed, and only the innate ship size will reduce damage, meaning if a vehicle's armor health pool is destroyed, it's treated as if that face (or the entire ship) is unarmored.

Smaller ship armor has smaller health pools, so an Ursa might have ...2k? of an armor health pool, while a capital ship like the the Bengal Carrier might have hundreds of thousands or even a millions of health in it's armor pools (each face having 500k armor health so 3 for its armor pool), while the Kraken might have no armor at all, but would still retain its size bonus for damage reduction.

Some exposed items like turrets, shield generators, sensors, thrusters, engines, etc might have their own armor rating with their own health pool and size class. So a S4 turret might be treated as a medium vehicle, even if it's installed on a capital ship, while a massive double S7 firing turret might have capital class armor.
An anti large ship ground weapon installation might have large heavy armor for it


As you can see, this is a workable plan. I am not saying it's a good plan or that there isn't a better one out there, but it's workable.
The problem is, I don't think CIG has ever thought things like this through and now they are caught in a problem of their own making.

This is why you need to have a comprehensive plan and someone looking out for the big picture. CIG seems so detail focused, that he has lost sight of the overall picture.
 
Last edited:

Yex

Space Marshal
Mar 15, 2015
355
676
2,350
RSI Handle
Yex
Star Citizens 'crew' model fits a free to play game. Paying players own ships, the vast majority don't have ships = it works

Ships are crewed, eventually its balanced via stats and it all works out.

Why balance ship turrets when let's be honest guys, ya'll will very rarely have a crew in the current format.
Unless something changed and they've said it'll be free to play?
 

Ayeteeone

Space Marshal
Donor
Oct 22, 2018
723
2,824
2,500
RSI Handle
Ayeteeone
Star Citizens 'crew' model fits a free to play game. Paying players own ships, the vast majority don't have ships = it works

Ships are crewed, eventually its balanced via stats and it all works out.

Why balance ship turrets when let's be honest guys, ya'll will very rarely have a crew in the current format.
Unless something changed and they've said it'll be free to play?
As much as the introvert in me would like to agree, well over 50% of my time in is spent on multicrew ships with other players. Turrets are a huge factor in that for the game loops we have. To be fair, this discussion really only applies toward PvP situations. PvE it's easy enough for CIG to adjust the AI behaviours for the desired result. But players push the boundaries, and from that perspective the situation is quite broken.

The only Free-to-play is during designated free fly events. Otherwise you need a game package and all of those include a ship. The essence of your statement isn't far off though, as many players are happy enough to crew up for the experience of working together on a big ship. The Polaris and Idris have changed the landscape dramatically, and the game content is starting to reflect that.

Even players who really want to fly their own ship are literally getting on board. I was able to entice a buddy to play almost all weekend by letting him put his SuperHornet in the Polaris with my Razor and C8R. He had a frackin' blast dogfighting, and when his ship exploded he'd respawn onboard and jump in a turret. GOOD Times.
 
Last edited:

Yex

Space Marshal
Mar 15, 2015
355
676
2,350
RSI Handle
Yex
As much as the introvert in me would like to agree, well over 50% of my time in is spent on multicrew ships with other players. Turrets are a huge factor in that for the game loops we have. To be fair, this discussion really only applies toward PvP situations. PvE it's easy enough for CIG to adjust the AI behaviours for the desired result. But players push the boundaries, and from that perspective the situation is quite broken.

The only Free-to-play is during designated free fly events. Otherwise you need a game package and all of those include a ship. The essence of your statement isn't far off though, as many players are happy enough to crew up for the experience of working together on a big ship. The Polaris and Idris have changed the landscape dramatically, and the game content is starting to reflect that.

Even players who really want to fly their own ship are literally getting on board. I was able to entice a buddy to play almost all weekend by letting him put his SuperHornet in the Polaris with my Razor and C8R. He had a frackin' blast dogfighting, and when his ship exploded he'd respawn onboard and jump in a turret. GOOD Times.
Honestly awesome to hear folks are teaming up on the bigger ships; not the experience I've had but I'm just a casual :) most of my friends put SC on hold already but if its there, that means the future is bright!
 

Deroth

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 28, 2017
1,839
6,167
2,850
RSI Handle
Deroth1
It is a matter of perspective.

For the, "That's P2W," crowd, they seem to like the current state, and even want it pushed further so they can all live out their Luke Skywalker fantasy in a Mustang Alpha against any Capital ship.
CIG keeps pandering to that crowd, so until CIG is ready to tell them to get over it or move on, turrets and larger ships will never be in a 'good place'.

My definition of a 'good place' is that X number of roughly equally skilled people flying multi-crewed should have an increasing tactical edge (based off the specific ship/ship role) over the same number of pilots flying single-seater ships. For example, two people in a Cutlass Black, the advantage should be so slight that going against two dedicated fighters would easily overcome it, but going against two single-seater ships that are not dedicated fighters the advantage should be sufficient that nobody is walking away from that fight without taking damage. However, scale that up to a Connie, HH, and so forth, that advantage should be enough that players would prefer to engage with more fighters than potential crew and still know they're a solid chance of some people getting taken out.
 

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,164
7,731
2,850
RSI Handle
Thalstan
It is a matter of perspective.

For the, "That's P2W," crowd, they seem to like the current state, and even want it pushed further so they can all live out their Luke Skywalker fantasy in a Mustang Alpha against any Capital ship.
CIG keeps pandering to that crowd, so until CIG is ready to tell them to get over it or move on, turrets and larger ships will never be in a 'good place'.

My definition of a 'good place' is that X number of roughly equally skilled people flying multi-crewed should have an increasing tactical edge (based off the specific ship/ship role) over the same number of pilots flying single-seater ships. For example, two people in a Cutlass Black, the advantage should be so slight that going against two dedicated fighters would easily overcome it, but going against two single-seater ships that are not dedicated fighters the advantage should be sufficient that nobody is walking away from that fight without taking damage. However, scale that up to a Connie, HH, and so forth, that advantage should be enough that players would prefer to engage with more fighters than potential crew and still know they're a solid chance of some people getting taken out.
But…my freelancer should be ble to take out those two cutlasses easily…it shows it right in the commercial….

Seriously, CIG needs to figure out what their gameplay is supposed to look like, but when they do, lots will be upset and the decision will cost them a lot in lost revenue as people start ignoring the losing class of ships.

In other words, CIG has every incentive to keep kicking that can down the road
 

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,671
15,421
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
Lots of tweeks in the 4.2 notes. I’m not sure if they’re trying to fix stuff or trying to look like they fix stuff. I don’t think they understand each time they mess with stats they upset someone, somewhere. The outcome is they boost a stat one patch and put it back the next. Takes all doubt away that they have no measure to consider.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ayeteeone
Forgot your password?