Ukraine

Shadow Reaper

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I hesitate to make this post, and if it is removed, I will not be offended. I would like to make a handful of completely non-partisan observations as regard the details of this war and the astonishing propaganda being shoveled at all the major news networks here in the US. Observations:

1) This war was predicted time and again by members of the US Congress from the first moments Biden announced his refusal to enforce Congressional sanctions against Nordstream II. Anyone paying attention knew a year ago this war would happen.

2) Putin has been moving troops for over three months in preparations to invasion. No one in the world has a right to pretend they are surprised by these events. Ukraine has been seeking help and training its citizens to defend for three months. Anyone who presents as surprised is lying and that, quite badly.

3) Javelin missiles are anti-tank weapons that are astonishingly easy to use and remarkably inexpensive. They are single-person, shoulder-mounted missile systems that can completely destroy a heavy battle tank in seconds from 2 miles away. The reusable launcher is just $100k and the missiles are just $78k and yet they can completely destroy a tank in a single shot. Had Biden responded to calls for help two months ago by sending $200M worth of Javelins to Ukraine, there would have been no war. The mere presence of the Javelins would have shut down Putin's ability to invade.

In summation, just realize that what we're being told is almost all propaganda. Every news source has its own spin, and it is rare to see simple observations like these no matter your source. It is entirely likely your news source is treating you with contempt by handing you some vacuous form of the facts. The facts are, this war was planned and sanctioned by the free world right in front of us all, and posturing about how the US will send weapons when Putin is now a single day's walk from Kiev is just that, mere posturing. Think about that.
 
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Rodo1jub

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Media is picturing everything for a long time now (COVID and Russian invasion are just latest examples) as BLACK or WHITE.....
All political statements are always BLACK or WHITE.

But sadly (or luckely) the truth is always...always every color in between. Everything but BLACK or WHITE....
 

BUTUZ

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I dont watch any news at all any more - Covid etc proved to me that it's all a load of factless propaganda.

If you watch the news - the media wins!
 

Lorddarthvik

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Why watch the msm when you can watch the real live footage from the place itself on YouTube..
I remember like a week ago I had some live feed from one of the power plants on my second screen, watched the whole damn battle, including when the Russians not just allegedly but actually shot at the emergency responders/firefighters. You could see the tracers bouncing on the firetruck on the night vision cam.
I also remember watching a 30 second clip on yt of some AA taking out something (probably cruise missile) and then a burning part the wreckage falling onto a building lighting it on fire. Couple hours later the msm was full of clips showing the same building on fire stating that it was an intentional attack on a civilian building. It clearly was not.
Makes you think whether they want this war to get worse doesn't it?

Anyways, sitting only a couple hundred clicks away from all these things happening is pretty damn concerning while the msm and politicians are frothing at the mouth calling for others to take action, cos it's not their house that's gonna get bombed next...
 

Mushin

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I hesitate to make this post, and if it is removed, I will not be offended. I would like to make a handful of completely non-partisan observations as regard the details of this war and the astonishing propaganda being shoveled at all the major news networks here in the US. Observations:

1) This war was predicted time and again by members of the US Congress from the first moments Biden announced his refusal to enforce Congressional sanctions against Nordstream II. Anyone paying attention knew a year ago this war would happen.

2) Putin has been moving troops for over three months in preparations to invasion. No one in the world has a right to pretend they are surprised by these events. Ukraine has been seeking help and training its citizens to defend for three months. Anyone who presents as surprised is lying and that, quite badly.

3) Javelin missiles are anti-tank weapons that are astonishingly easy to use and remarkably inexpensive. They are single-person, shoulder-mounted missile systems that can completely destroy a heavy battle tank in seconds from 2 miles away. The reusable launcher is just $100k and the missiles are just $78k and yet they can completely destroy a tank in a single shot. Had Biden responded to calls for help two months ago by sending $200M worth of Javelins to Ukraine, there would have been no war. The mere presence of the Javelins would have shut down Putin's ability to invade.

In summation, just realize that what we're being told is almost all propaganda. Every news source has its own spin, and it is rare to see simple observations like these no matter your source. It is entirely likely your news source is treating you with contempt by handing you some vacuous form of the facts. The facts are, this war was planned and sanctioned by the free world right in front of us all, and posturing about how the US will send weapons when Putin is now a single day's walk from Kiev is just that, mere posturing. Think about that.
The US sent Javelins to Ukraine over four years ago. I feel like anyone who puts the blame for this atrocity on anyone but Putin is trying to fit a political narrative that suits their point of view.
 

Radegast74

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Well, I'd say that Russia has been telegraphing their intent to take over Ukraine ever since they invaded in 2014, and tried annexing the Donbas region and Crimea.

I've known that the Evil Empire returned ever since Russian forces shot down MH17, and then poisoned those people in the UK, and then shot and killed the dissident in Berlin.

Putin has not made any secret about his desire to restore the old Soviet Union, and has been actively taking steps to do so for the last 20 years. His war in Syria has been pretty much a training opportunity for his forces, both his regular military and his mercenaries. We've been distracted with other things, some legit, and some silly, but now is the time for us to regain our focus and do something once and for all about those actively working to bring down a free and democratic society. Today it is Ukraine; given enough time Putin wants to add the other countries of the USSR to his sphere of influence.
 

FZD

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My observations:

1) If Georgia had gotten this level of support in 2008, there wouldn't have been Ukraine 2014
2) If Ukraine had gotten this level of support in 2014, there wouldn't have been Ukraine 2022. (Even if Russia wins, if it hurts this much, they literally can't afford another fight anytime soon)
3) NATO needs to guarantee the independence of the applicants. I mean, presuming NATO wants any country near Russia to join up. Doesn't really work if Russia just invades any country that indicates they're considering joining / is organizing a referendum about joining NATO / is in talks with NATO about joining / etc.
4) Think Ukraine still needs more Stingers. Javelins are good, but Russia has a lot of planes as well.
5) I really loathe war crimes. It'd be great if all suspected war criminals were sent to somewhere like Germany to face a fair trial.
6) Imho the sanctions should get tougher and tougher until Russia returns all annexed lands. If Russia is allowed to extract any benefit from waging war, they'll just keep waging wars. Well, after this I'd imagine it'll take a long while before they can afford the next one though.
7) I also really loathe crimes against peace.
 

Shadow Reaper

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The US sent Javelins to Ukraine over four years ago. I feel like anyone who puts the blame for this atrocity on anyone but Putin is trying to fit a political narrative that suits their point of view.
Four years ago, the House stopped shipments to Ukraine--all but 37 Javelins. 37 weapons to defend a country almost as large as Texas is nothing but show.

Javelins are primarily defensive weapons. The only reason to keep them from Ukraine is if you think you can profit off their fall to Russia. While I'm not a fan of Ukraine's government, no one thinks they're interested in invading anyone.
 

Mushin

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Four years ago, the House stopped shipments to Ukraine--all but 37 Javelins. 37 weapons to defend a country almost as large as Texas is nothing but show.

Javelins are primarily defensive weapons. The only reason to keep them from Ukraine is if you think you can profit off their fall to Russia. While I'm not a fan of Ukraine's government, no one thinks they're interested in invading anyone.
The number of Javelins, while substantially higher than the 37 initially provided, (which can be discovered with a little research), does not take away from the intent of the Russian government toward Ukraine. Nothing would have prevented Putin from wanting this war. He lives in a mirrored bunker full of people who fear and worship him. He's made it clear, he wants to restore the Soviet Union, and challenge NATO directly. A full scale war against NATO, while would be short, puts Putin and Russia in a desperate situation. The Ukrainians successfully defend their own land while making the Russian army look incapable and weak, and at the same time has helped to unite the majority of the world powers toward a singular focus. The alternative is, NATO pushes in hard, sweeps out what is left of Russian forces in Ukraine, and rolls the dice on Putin pushing the nuclear button. As it stands right now, Ukraine is getting material, financial, and spiritual support, and continues to shut Russian forces down each and every day. Every day this goes on without Putin having anyone else to blame, puts another crosshair on him, among his own people and supporters. At this point, Putin wants NATO to be the aggressor, so he can validate his lies towards his own people and seek vindication.
 

Shadow Reaper

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"In 2018, the Ukrainians bought 210 missiles and 37 launchers. Then they purchased 150 missiles and 10 launchers in 2019. They have reportedly already used these a handful of times, according to a November 2021 report."

47 Javelins is not enough to defend thousands of miles of boarder either. 1,000 launchers is however, and Ukraine would have bought this many and more had they been permitted. Facts are that the free world turned a deaf ear to Putin's machinations for months, knowing full well what he was going to do, and pledging $800M in arms yesterday can in no way stop Putin. The arms were needed two months ago in order to give the civilians who would have used them time to train. Had these weapons been given to Ukraine in January, there would certainly not be a war right now.

And there is the rub. Nearly every major news outlet is pretending this offer of help now, when it is far too late; is authentic when anyone with common sense knows it is not.

We knew precisely what to do to prevent this war and chose instead to do nothing. What Americans ought to be asking themselves is why? Why did the House stop the sale of Javelins to Ukraine in 2018 and again in 2019?

 

Amun Khonsu

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I hesitate to make this post, and if it is removed, I will not be offended. I would like to make a handful of completely non-partisan observations as regard the details of this war and the astonishing propaganda being shoveled at all the major news networks here in the US. Observations:

1) This war was predicted time and again by members of the US Congress from the first moments Biden announced his refusal to enforce Congressional sanctions against Nordstream II. Anyone paying attention knew a year ago this war would happen.

2) Putin has been moving troops for over three months in preparations to invasion. No one in the world has a right to pretend they are surprised by these events. Ukraine has been seeking help and training its citizens to defend for three months. Anyone who presents as surprised is lying and that, quite badly.

3) Javelin missiles are anti-tank weapons that are astonishingly easy to use and remarkably inexpensive. They are single-person, shoulder-mounted missile systems that can completely destroy a heavy battle tank in seconds from 2 miles away. The reusable launcher is just $100k and the missiles are just $78k and yet they can completely destroy a tank in a single shot. Had Biden responded to calls for help two months ago by sending $200M worth of Javelins to Ukraine, there would have been no war. The mere presence of the Javelins would have shut down Putin's ability to invade.

In summation, just realize that what we're being told is almost all propaganda. Every news source has its own spin, and it is rare to see simple observations like these no matter your source. It is entirely likely your news source is treating you with contempt by handing you some vacuous form of the facts. The facts are, this war was planned and sanctioned by the free world right in front of us all, and posturing about how the US will send weapons when Putin is now a single day's walk from Kiev is just that, mere posturing. Think about that.
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. A bit of my take on it, for better or worse.

We knew who Putin was since Chechnya, and again Georgia. We did nothing, and little since. It took two days for our leaders even to call troops moving into Ukraine an invasion and react, fhs, and even longer to respond. Now, we are caught out, a day late and dollar short on weapons supplies, in a proxy war to bog them down.

At the same time, IMO, we should not have been expanding NATO to Russia's borders. The closer we put troops and bases the more they feel threatened. This area was the same route the Nazis took towards Moscow, and Russians took very heavy losses then. I'm thinking of how we felt when the Soviet Union were putting missiles in Cuba, 1962. No wonder they feel threatened by NATO, an organization founded after the War to defeat Russia. But, now, there seems to be little choice for the "West".

I think this is a case of the arsonist putting out the fire he started.

“Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.” - George F. Kennan; American diplomat, an advocate of a policy of containment of Soviet expansion during the Cold War.
 
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Deroth

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"In 2018, the Ukrainians bought 210 missiles and 37 launchers. Then they purchased 150 missiles and 10 launchers in 2019. They have reportedly already used these a handful of times, according to a November 2021 report."

47 Javelins is not enough to defend thousands of miles of boarder either. 1,000 launchers is however, and Ukraine would have bought this many and more had they been permitted. Facts are that the free world turned a deaf ear to Putin's machinations for months, knowing full well what he was going to do, and pledging $800M in arms yesterday can in no way stop Putin. The arms were needed two months ago in order to give the civilians who would have used them time to train. Had these weapons been given to Ukraine in January, there would certainly not be a war right now.

And there is the rub. Nearly every major news outlet is pretending this offer of help now, when it is far too late; is authentic when anyone with common sense knows it is not.

We knew precisely what to do to prevent this war and chose instead to do nothing. What Americans ought to be asking themselves is why? Why did the House stop the sale of Javelins to Ukraine in 2018 and again in 2019?

There was also the shipment of military supplies the previous US President sent to Ukraine just before leaving office that the new President turned around half way to the destination shortly after taking office.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. A bit of my take on it, for better or worse.

We knew who Putin was since Chechnya, and again Georgia. We did nothing, and little since. It took two days for our leaders even to call troops moving into Ukraine an invasion and react, fhs, and even longer to respond. Now, we are caught out, a day late and dollar short on weapons supplies, in a proxy war to bog them down.

At the same time, IMO, we should not have been expanding NATO to Russia's borders. The closer we put troops and bases the more they feel threatened. This area was the same route the Nazis took towards Moscow, and Russians took very heavy losses then. I'm thinking of how we felt when the Soviet Union were putting missiles in Cuba, 1962. No wonder they feel threatened by NATO, an organization founded after the War to defeat Russia. But, now, there seems to be little choice for the "West".

I think this is a case of the arsonist putting out the fire he started.

“Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.” - George F. Kennan; American diplomat, an advocate of a policy of containment of Soviet expansion during the Cold War.
I agree, while I can completely understand the Ukrainian government wanting to join NATO for various reasons, it is also completely predictable for the Russian government seeing NATO accepting that possibility as being antagonistic or even threatening to them. Additionally, the quantity of military training exercises conducted by various NATO nations for a couple decades now in Ukraine makes for at best easy propaganda for the Russian government for NATO's intention to go to war with Russia. Add to that the American funded bio-labs in Ukraine near the Russian border that many government officials and the MSM frequently denied the existence of, it definitely leaves one wondering what outcome the politicians, bureaucrats, and MSM pundits really wanted to see.

To be clear, I am not justifying Putin's actions on this, as I see them as absolutely abhorrent, but instead looking at the actions of the 'West' that lead us to this point, that if handled in the opposite way may have prevented this, and wondering whether the decision makers honestly believed their choices were the best or if they had their own undisclosed personal agendas.
 

Han Burgundy

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In a word? Clusterfuck. That goddamn A.I. had better hurry up and enslave us all before we nuke ourselves. Literally the only scenario in which humanity sees the year 2100. I, for one, welcome our robot overlords. Hindsight is 20|20, but our 'foresight' is likely to drive us straight into a wall.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I don't want to respond to each response because then we will inevitably fall into partisan viewpoints and disagree. My interest was merely to ask people to ask themselves why this is happening. Had we sent 1/4 the military aid two months ago, that we agreed to send two days ago, no one would have died. No one would be displaced. No children would have become homeless orphans. Yet knowing this, we chose to do what we have done. Why?

I will offer the response that I think the NATO issue is a Red Herring. NATO is so very far from its stated intentions when formed that its member nations don't even know what its mission really is. None of the European members have kept their commitments as regards membership. Most of them laughed at OBama when he pointed out they were delinquent toward their commitments, and they tried to laugh at Trump until he doubled down and threatened to pull out US participation and support. NATO is mostly a joke. Putin is not threatened by NATO in the least. Rather, I think he'll gauge his response to Europe's reaction to his Ukraine gambit by just how much influence he gains with Ukrainian oil and gas. If Germany keeps buying gas from him afterward, he'll likely go into the Balkans. That's what happens when bullies are not presented with adequate deterrence.

FYI, from NATO's inception until the end of the Cold War, NATO's mission was simple to understand and describe. It was centered around the needs of Europe after the lessons learned in WW I and WW II. NATO was designed "to keep America in, Russia out and Germany down", meaning it was intended to keep America involved in the defense of Europe against the USSR.

After three-quarters century of America protecting Europe while Europe refuses to protect itself, Putin knows NATO has no balls, no strength and no commitment to fight. It is just as frail and limp as it was when Hitler started the boarder wars that escalated into WW II. The ball is really in Europe's court. Please understand--this has nothing to do with the fact that NATO has greater military might than Russia. It is the willingness, or rather unwillingness to fight that spurs bullies on to create wars. Europe has not been willing to fight for a very long time. Obviously, it is not defending Ukraine and knows if Putin gains Ukraine he can dictate terms across all Europe for his gas. Yet Europe does nothing. If Germany doesn't punish Russia by contracting to buy the more expensive US gas in place of the cheaper Russian gas, expect Estonia to be next on Putin's list. The US has only a minor place of influence here, and it is whether or not to sell Javelins and Stingers to Ukraine and the Balkans.

And I'll be bold and say early what most military experts have not yet said--I don't think there is any way in hell the US is going to cross the Atlantic for NATO to fight Putin. Europe has been warned for ten years and repeatedly laughed at US presidents who told them to start honoring their commitments. If Europe gets its ass handed to them again, it will be their own fault because they lied to their allies and refused to honor their NATO obligations for a half century. Americans have had enough of Europe laughing at them and I seriously doubt the US public will allow American involvement in another European war. While Putin is testing NATO with Ukraine, China is going to test America with Taiwan, and IMHO, both Europe and Taiwan will be the losers. There is no way Biden will defend Taiwan. If Ukraine and Taiwan both fall, we will be EXACTLY where we were at the beginning of WW II, with the SAME madness and the same economic forces dragging the whole planet into war. Shades of Nevil Chamberlain.

This does not mean Putin is stupid enough to escalate boarder wars into a global conflict. One suspects he learned enough from Hitler to not make that mistake, but he could easily absorb the Balkins and I doubt NATO will try to stop him.

Here's a great explanation of some of the forces that caused WW II. Tell me if you don't see these same critical thinking errors at work today as regards Ukraine.

View: https://youtu.be/EUELed7UuDQ?t=371
 
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Technoccult

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I'm not going to get into this any further than to point out that in the history of NATO, Article 5 of the Treaty has only been invoked once, and the organisation's members provided support as agreed.

And the country that invoked it was the United States.
 

Devil Dog Hog

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The world has always been a sorry shithole with bad people in power doing bad things and the enablers profiting off their crimes until its too late. Its the weak, poor, and helpless that suffers everytime. This Russian song and dance isn't new and it will continue until they actually have a functioning democracy and not the half-ass sham of pretend. You can bet China is watching and calculating if they invade Taiwan how will it play out, or North Korea invading South Korea with a first strike now that we (the world) let them have nukes. I would LIKE to say a country will eventually collapse and fail if its only foreign political strategy is "Do what I say or I'll invade you fuckers." but look at North Korea. Nothing will change. I'm salty, bitter, and tired, and no amount of armchair sunday quarter backing on the hindsight that were afforded will change the death tolls on both Ukranians and Russians, and it will only be a matter of time before NATO gets involved and this becomes WW3 or Putin disappears like the bogey man he thinks he is.
 
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