WALL OF TEXT Pirates vs Griefers: why you're thinking about it wrong.

GrammarGestapo

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tl;dr included at bottom


Some people use the terms pirates and griefers interchangeably. These people are flat out wrong. But whether you love us or hate us, there's certainly a good amount of fear, misunderstanding, and misinformation about why pirates do what they do. Lets look at the facts: CR wants piracy to be an actual profession. Pirates are meant to be in star citizen. Pirates are an intended part of the economic exchange, so much so that whether you turn that PVP slider down to minimum or maximum, you're still going to run into us.

"But", you might ask, "why would any sane, reasonable, empathetic person engage in piracy?". The short answer is obvious: money. That, and this is just a game nerd. Most pirates are nice people too. I know it seems hard to believe from your bubble of friendship and magic, but it's true.

The long answer is a bit more complex. It's absolutely true that a part of the reason people enjoy piracy is seeing the tears of the carebear they just nuked. However, calling that the main reason we do it would be absurd. At a basic level, PVP is fun, whether you engage in an honorable duel with a buddy, fight in a big fleet action for your org, or happen to prey on juicy merchant ships guarded by hornets. Sure, some people don't like it, but lets be honest here: they usually aren't the type to win fights. Many of us, pirate or otherwise, subscribe to the belief that the reason to earn money in SC is to pay for PVP stuff. Time spent outside PVP is a necessary evil to fund the fun times. So, it should be logical that an occupation that allows us to minimize time spent "grinding" and maximize time spent doing what we love would be optimal.

"Ahah", you might say, "Then why not become a bounty hunter or escort?". Again, we go back to money. Why in the world would I want to be an escort, making chump change protecting some fattened hauler, when I could myself take everything in that hauler? Pirates will pay no more than the cost of bullets for massive amounts of valuable cargo. They then sell that cargo, all the while getting the maximum dose (outside hopping into arena commander) of that PVP they crave. We aren't psychopaths. We aren't griefers. We're people who want to fly big ships with big guns, and actually get to use those big ships with big guns on targets that matter. That's not so hard to understand, is it?

But beyond that, lets look at what pirates do for an ecosystem. Pirates make prices higher. Sure, a pirate could massively undercut conventional traders, but they won't. Why would I sell this cargo I have for less than it's worth? I think it reasonable to assume that the buying and selling system will be somewhat similar to EVE online, where sell prices are not the only thing on the market: automated buy orders will be there too. Whether NPC or player, those buy orders will be the most likely thing for us pirates to funnel our ill-gotten cargo into for rapid profit. If they're too low, no one will put items into them, and they'll be replaced by higher ones as pirates and traders alike simply put up sell orders more in line with the normal price of the goods.

By the nature of what we do, stuff is gonna get blown up. We will more than likely destroy much more cargo than we actually manage to capture. But... there is an upside. This will have little to no effect on the prices of items produced in the system you're in, but what it does do is increase the prices of items produced outside. What that means, is that in order to get the best price possible on something, you'll have to go where it is produced. Again, pirates will have little effect on the prices of goods produced in-system. However, when you start heading out into the stars, going to other systems where the buy prices are higher, pirates will cause those prices to rise. People become more desperate for items. Most won't have time to fly around the universe grabbing stuff from the lowest bidder, they want those items now in the same system they're in. As demand grows and scarcity of distant items increases, prices go up and up and up. More pirates will come, because, duh, the items we steal sell for more on the market. Rarity will increase further. Until, finally, the UEE steps in and does a serious sweep of the area, effectively resetting the price counter and normalizing prices by making it nigh-on impossible for those with negative security status to operate. But... the UEE is supposed to model a real world government. And, like a real world government, its resources are limited. It cannot fully defend every system all the time. And when they are inevitably forced to pull back... the pirates will flood in again.

As a trader, knowing when to sell and knowing when to hoard items will be a huge part of making money. Timing it just right, so that you sell your items as close to the inevitable UEE crackdown as possible for the highest price will drastically increase profits. Of course, the presence of pirates obviously benefits escorts and bounty hunters, but that goes without saying.




tl;dr
Pirates aren't psychopaths or pure leaches. Sometimes we'll really screw you over. The vast majority of the time though, you'll fly by unharassed. In a ship like a hull E... what's one lost cargo run, when you could potentially make 10 more at a 50% higher profit than normal? Pirates will feed that profit by increasing the scarcity of items, just as they will occasionally take it away by popping your space jpegs.


wew that was the first non-shitpost I've made in years. Time to go shit up chat some more.
 

Doctor Antelope

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I agree with you basically 100%. The bottom line though, is that in the current state of the game there is hardly a distinction to be made. There is no cargo to steal, no real method to ransom, so the people who enjoy PvP and lean to piracy side of that spectrum have one thing to scratch that itch, roam around and pop any ship you can. Since the only currency to be made from piracy right now is tears/rage from chat, camping a place like Grimhex is a gold mine. I think you should probably let the people take off before you engage (I will admit I have been guilty of the opposite, but it gets dull pretty quick).
 

JimiJons

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Pirating doesn't necessarily mean blowing up your prey, either. I assume people will be able to eject cargo or transfer UEC instantly over the comm network.

Following any sort of reputation or bounty system, that would be the most mutually beneficial way to pirate. You drop your interdiction field, hit your target with some EMP stuff, and tell em to poop out the goods. They do as they're told, they don't die or lose their big expensive ship, and you make off with 20 pounds of compost originally bound for that farming colony off in the distance.

The whole free-for-all GrimHex thing is just an Alpha experiment for CIG. Given the lack of literally anything else for an unlawful player to do right now, griefing is going to happen. Obviously that's a no-no, and something that should not be associated with actual pirates, but I don't see anything that can't be easily fixed in one patch. Give us cargo, somewhere to sell it, and a couple stationary turrets or patrolling faction NPCs at GrimHex and boom: significantly reduced griefing.
 

Beerjerker

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Pirating doesn't necessarily mean blowing up your prey, either. I assume people will be able to eject cargo or transfer UEC instantly over the comm network.
Put that on a list of things that will never happen. Surrender? In a game? Nobody knows each other, so no one will back down.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9xxK7fL58

The death system would have to be so punishing that it wouldn't be fun to keep even haulers from fighting to the death, just out of spite.

Disclaimer: alpha, butthurt, theorycrafting, blah, blah, blah...
 
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Callahad

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Look this game isn't going to be pirates vs good guys. I might do a few jobs here and there myself, help a few folk out, get Johnny home safe to his mammy. But then another day, I might just be flying through a system (after a few beers) and see someone flying past and reckon, 'here, that's a fine looking ship, I think i'll take that.' People aren't black and white and Star Citizen won't be either.

TL;DR I'm a dodgy boy after a few tins.
 

GrammarGestapo

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Pirating doesn't necessarily mean blowing up your prey, either. I assume people will be able to eject cargo or transfer UEC instantly over the comm network.

Following any sort of reputation or bounty system, that would be the most mutually beneficial way to pirate. You drop your interdiction field, hit your target with some EMP stuff, and tell em to poop out the goods. They do as they're told, they don't die or lose their big expensive ship, and you make off with 20 pounds of compost originally bound for that farming colony off in the distance.

The whole free-for-all GrimHex thing is just an Alpha experiment for CIG. Given the lack of literally anything else for an unlawful player to do right now, griefing is going to happen. Obviously that's a no-no, and something that should not be associated with actual pirates, but I don't see anything that can't be easily fixed in one patch. Give us cargo, somewhere to sell it, and a couple stationary turrets or patrolling faction NPCs at GrimHex and boom: significantly reduced griefing.
tbh though... the tears are nice. I'd probably blow them up anyways after I got what I could get xd

perhaps I'm not helping my argument...
 

GrammarGestapo

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Put that on a list of things that will never happen. Surrender? In a game? Nobody knows each other, so no one will back down.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9xxK7fL58

The death system would have to be so punishing that it wouldn't be fun to keep even haulers from fighting to the death, just out of spite.

Disclaimer: alpha, butthurt, theorycrafting, blah, blah, blah...
there will be ways to disable ships. So that's what we'll have to do. Set a trap, disable their systems, and board.
 

JimiJons

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Surrender? In a game? Nobody knows each other, so no one will back down.
Happens all the time in games like DayZ (or at least it used to before the player population died and the hardcore KoS Russians were all that was left). With character permadeath, I think people would readily surrender goods.

And if not, like GrammarGestapo said, we'll just inject ourselves into their hulls.
 
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Duckforceone

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unless being a pirate and known criminal makes it really hurtful to move around in high sec, then it will become a grief fest which will move this game away from realism.

We don't have mental remorse in this game, as you aren't killing real humans. So being an outlaw, will have to be really huge, and the difference between a pirate stealing and a pirate killing, should be huge in effect. Because if there isn't, it's human nature to just kill most people they find, because they know the player behind it will rage, and be unable to do anything.
 

DansAFK

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There's nothing so sweet as being the presumed passive victim then turning the tables and annihilating the ganker. Griefing has always been such a subjective definition with a broad spectrum of interpretations. I don't whine about being killed in pvp, I don't shout griefer. I call in my mates and we hunt.

Sure we will have some douchebags that kill you several times and make you mad. On the flip side we will probably see some epic bounty hunters that will make the douchebags whine on chat about how you cheated hiring a bounty hunter and getting all butt hurt themselves :p
 

Crymsan

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I totally accept pvp as part of this game just as much as I accept my limitations in pvp. I also played eve for a while and dealt with the consequences of players just logging out if you showed up with "help" and being ambushed by lag and all sorts of other fun things. So we know there are scanners as there will be stealth ships so there is going to be some play between the two (scanners being active seems to require a second crew member though). I am also surprised that supposedly the best stealth ship is also one of the best in combat. If there is no way for a bounty hunter to get after a "pirate" without luck of being in the same space by chance then those less skilled will just have no reason to keep playing. It is not a problem with loosing it is about loosing all the time with no come back how would that be fun? Also make any but full time combat ships redundant.

Anyway at the moment it is a gank fest because that's pretty much the only content and it is way to early to tell what the real features for this will be. I also have to wonder whether the developers will care. It is hard to know how the game will develop it is still years out who wants to login to be sheep?
 

Bruttle

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Anyway at the moment it is a gank fest because that's pretty much the only content and it is way to early to tell what the real features for this will be.
This is pretty much it in a nutshell. I agree with the OP that Pirates will be a big part of the whole picture. They are the risk portion of the "risk vs. reward" equation. They are the reason we will not freely run cargo or goods through deep space. They can and will be a necessary part of how the economy works in this game.

That being said, as Crymsan pointed out, you pretty much cannot be an actual pirate right now. So the majority we are left with is griefing and ganking. In the release version, it probably won't be a huge issue. Between self-policing communities, in game security, perma-death, and the actual cost of dying, it will likely be kept at a minimum.

Right now though, none of those checks and balances are in the game. The only thing that is in the game right now is the ability to open fire on whoever you want. Hence the griefing. Make no mistake about it though, as the OP said, griefing is not pirating. So many people are trying to say the two are the same and what they are doing now is "just part of being a pirate". However, none of what makes pirating a profession is included in the game.

You cannot steal cargo. You cannot trade with other players. You cannot interfere with commerce to push prices. These are legitimate pirate activities. Once these are implemented, terrorizing an area can be profitable. You can use griefing as a tool for profit. Therein lies the distinction. When you can use these tools with purpose, then and only then, does it become pirating. What we have now is just griefing for the sake of ruining other people's gameplay.

This is the part that is really bad for the game. You can find examples in every single other MMO. It has nothing to do with PVP. In fact, griefers rarely want to actually PVP. They usually run as soon as they meet actual opposition. It has nothing to do with being an integral part of the game. It has everything to do with actions for the sole purpose of ruining the game for as many people as possible. This is what needs to be stopped. Games that allow this sort of activity to go unchecked will and do lose players by the thousand.

There is a huge difference between enjoying the kill and counting your wins by the amount of people you have made quit the game. Many people try to confuse the two. People who PVP and get their a$$ kicked, love to call PVP griefing. Likewise, griefers love to call what they do PVP. Neither are true. There is a clear line between the two play styles. One is good, healthy and to be expected. However the other is cancer and needs to be cut out.

Hopefully, the checks and balances that CIG is planning to implement will keep things minimal. Griefing will always exist in some form, but hopefully it will keep people acting as pirates and not some kid kicking a puppy and giggling.
 

GrammarGestapo

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There's nothing so sweet as being the presumed passive victim then turning the tables and annihilating the ganker. Griefing has always been such a subjective definition with a broad spectrum of interpretations. I don't whine about being killed in pvp, I don't shout griefer. I call in my mates and we hunt.

Sure we will have some douchebags that kill you several times and make you mad. On the flip side we will probably see some epic bounty hunters that will make the douchebags whine on chat about how you cheated hiring a bounty hunter and getting all butt hurt themselves :p
that balance is exactly what makes piracy fun. Carebears are basically just cash balloons. It's those fights with their escorts that I really crave. o7 and good luck to all escorts. You'll need it :P
 

GrammarGestapo

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I totally accept pvp as part of this game just as much as I accept my limitations in pvp. I also played eve for a while and dealt with the consequences of players just logging out if you showed up with "help" and being ambushed by lag and all sorts of other fun things. So we know there are scanners as there will be stealth ships so there is going to be some play between the two (scanners being active seems to require a second crew member though). I am also surprised that supposedly the best stealth ship is also one of the best in combat. If there is no way for a bounty hunter to get after a "pirate" without luck of being in the same space by chance then those less skilled will just have no reason to keep playing. It is not a problem with loosing it is about loosing all the time with no come back how would that be fun? Also make any but full time combat ships redundant.

Anyway at the moment it is a gank fest because that's pretty much the only content and it is way to early to tell what the real features for this will be. I also have to wonder whether the developers will care. It is hard to know how the game will develop it is still years out who wants to login to be sheep?
look at it this way: Solo pirates won't be able to do much. We'll have to form gangs. Get into groups and organize ourselves in order to take on bigger cargo ships. So what if it's a Hull-C all alone? My vanguard doesn't have a chance! The hull C is fucking huge, and it's actually really well armed! One single seat fighter has no way of taking it down. So, when we form gangs to take on traders, it seems logical that traders will form gangs to survive pirates.

This is how a lot of anti-piracy ops will go down: A mid sized or small hauler will be sent out into space, alone. It will have nothing in the cargo and will be optimized for shielding. But, pirates won't know that. We'll drop in with a few guys, expecting an easy payout. BAM. The hauler calls for backup, in warp 7-10 Cloaky sabres that have been following the bait hauler and are waiting to pounce. There's a fight. It doesn't go well for the 2-3 pirates who expected to get easy cash. Depending on how many pirates in a system there are, and whether they're aligned with each other or not, this one action might significantly decrease the amount of piracy in that sector. To beat a pirate, you need to think like a pirate. Ambushes, ganging up on each other, traps. Pirates will ALWAYS have the ability to dictate the engagement. But, in the end, we HAVE to attack someone to make money. When that happens, if it's done right, bounty hunters will be ready.
 

Bruttle

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look at it this way: Solo pirates won't be able to do much. We'll have to form gangs. Get into groups and organize ourselves in order to take on bigger cargo ships. So what if it's a Hull-C all alone? My vanguard doesn't have a chance! The hull C is fucking huge, and it's actually really well armed! One single seat fighter has no way of taking it down. So, when we form gangs to take on traders, it seems logical that traders will form gangs to survive pirates.

This is how a lot of anti-piracy ops will go down: A mid sized or small hauler will be sent out into space, alone. It will have nothing in the cargo and will be optimized for shielding. But, pirates won't know that. We'll drop in with a few guys, expecting an easy payout. BAM. The hauler calls for backup, in warp 7-10 Cloaky sabres that have been following the bait hauler and are waiting to pounce. There's a fight. It doesn't go well for the 2-3 pirates who expected to get easy cash. Depending on how many pirates in a system there are, and whether they're aligned with each other or not, this one action might significantly decrease the amount of piracy in that sector. To beat a pirate, you need to think like a pirate. Ambushes, ganging up on each other, traps. Pirates will ALWAYS have the ability to dictate the engagement. But, in the end, we HAVE to attack someone to make money. When that happens, if it's done right, bounty hunters will be ready.
I have zero issues with this. This is how I see pirating going as well. It ads depth to the game in the form of risk and excitement. Without it, this game would just be farmville in space.

The part that gets messed up though, is when pirates get called griefers and griefers try to call themselves pirates. The two are very far apart in both goal and reward. One is a welcome addition to the game and the other is extremely detrimental. One brings new players to the game and the other drives people away.

PVP oriented players inevitably get blamed for the whole thing though. Griefers love to hide behind the PVPrs and make excuses. There is usually a ton of name calling (which is why you can't use the word "carebear" on the RSI website) and twisted truths. Ultimately, all PVP players get blamed for the small percentage of griefer players. It's sad to see it happen but almost always does. I just seriously hope it doesn't happen in this game.
 
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GrammarGestapo

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I have zero issues with this. This is how I see pirating going as well. It ads depth to the game in the form of risk and excitement. Without it, this game would just be farmville in space.

The part that gets messed up though, is when pirates get called griefers and griefers try to call themselves pirates. The two are very far apart in both goal and reward. One is a welcome addition to the game and the other is extremely detrimental. One brings new players to the game and the other drives people away.

PVP oriented players inevitably get blamed for the whole thing though. Griefers love to hide behind the PVPrs and make excuses. There is usually a ton of name calling (which is why you can't use the word "carebear" on the RSI website) and twisted truths. Ultimately, all PVP players get blamed for the small percentage of griefer players. It's sad to see it happen but almost always does. I just seriously hope it doesn't happen in this game.
I hope CIG doesn't blow holes in what they've been telling pirates and make it fucking difficult to live off of just to appease the people who are terrified of losing their stuff. I realize that EVE is scary for a lot of people... but the hands-off way CCP lets the game and its environment develop is actually really great. Perhaps avoid the scammers in jita local, but the idea to just let players be players has resulted in an incredible community and some truly incredible things. Learning to play EVE has radically changed the way I think about games. It's made me devious, coarse, and a lot smarter than I was before. If I'm forced, not incentivized, but forced to haul cargo, mine ore, and shoot shitty NPC pirates for suitable cash, I'll be more than a little disgusted with the game. I'll probably still play it. But it'll always be tinged with regret and a sense of loss that the PVP oriented, competitive space sim it could have been will never be truly realized.
 

GojiraSamurai

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look at it this way: Solo pirates won't be able to do much. We'll have to form gangs. Get into groups and organize ourselves in order to take on bigger cargo ships. So what if it's a Hull-C all alone? My vanguard doesn't have a chance! The hull C is fucking huge, and it's actually really well armed! One single seat fighter has no way of taking it down. So, when we form gangs to take on traders, it seems logical that traders will form gangs to survive pirates.

This is how a lot of anti-piracy ops will go down: A mid sized or small hauler will be sent out into space, alone. It will have nothing in the cargo and will be optimized for shielding. But, pirates won't know that. We'll drop in with a few guys, expecting an easy payout. BAM. The hauler calls for backup, in warp 7-10 Cloaky sabres that have been following the bait hauler and are waiting to pounce. There's a fight. It doesn't go well for the 2-3 pirates who expected to get easy cash. Depending on how many pirates in a system there are, and whether they're aligned with each other or not, this one action might significantly decrease the amount of piracy in that sector. To beat a pirate, you need to think like a pirate. Ambushes, ganging up on each other, traps. Pirates will ALWAYS have the ability to dictate the engagement. But, in the end, we HAVE to attack someone to make money. When that happens, if it's done right, bounty hunters will be ready.
Pirates will always have the ability to dictate engagements, sorry my friend, i choose when and where....
 
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