Solo: A Star Wars Story

Montoya · Sep 18, 2018

Xist said:
I, on the other hand, love that there are so many strong women characters now.

This is because you have a daughter.

I feel the same, I have seen people bitch about SJW's forcing the movies to have strong female roles.

I honestly don't give a shit if its a male or female role lead, but I do like that my daughter can watch Rey kicking ass as the main character.

Thalstan · Sep 18, 2018

Xist said:
@Thalstan I agree with most of what you said. It was really hard for me to like TFA and especially TLJ. They go against so much of the established movie lore.

In spite of that, I have decided that Star Wars is now going in a new direction. Rather than dwell on the past I've tried to see the new direction through the eyes of my kids.

With such new perspective, I'm looking at this as kind of a reboot of the franchise and not necessarily as a continuation. From that viewpoint it's actually a decent series and my kids enjoy it.

I get what you say, and I can understand where you are coming from, but they could have easily written a good movie that moves in a different direction. Instead, they wrong derivative material and shoveled manure. Even if they had gotten rid of a few of the bad points...(ballistic arcs, gravity fed bombs, the "hehe, they don't know where we are going" when they are heading directly towards the only planet in the area..then it might not have been so bad. Had they been original in their action sequences (the fight over the lake was pretty good), it would have been better. Instead, they gave you a supersized big mac, fries, and coke, and called it "new". No, it's not new, just bigger.

The original series had walkers. The prequel had those 6 legged walker and while you could see the resemblance it was different...the new order...had BIGGER walkers that looked almost exactly the same, but bigger and a different color.

but the one thing they could have done was to not write Kylo Ren as an overgrown child throwing an extended tantrum.

If they wanted a reboot, then they should have gone away from the established character and they certainly should not have had some of the original cast.

Firen · Sep 18, 2018

I realy enjoyed "Solo".

I had a great time watching it with my sons. One of my favorite Starwars mouvie so far

Printimus · Sep 18, 2018

Thalstan said:
honestly, it WASN'T the one one film. It was both TFA and TLJ

I have no problem with them killing off older characters. While I think Akbar should have had an onscreen death, I am ok with him and Han getting offed.

What I did not like...loathed actually, is the exceptionally bad writing (bad even for a SW movie, where we expect bad writing), and the way that, at times, it had too heavy of a political overtones.

TFA - the opening was not bad. Finn, Poe, Rey, BB8 are actually all enjoyable characters
Kylo Ren on the other hand in written as a child...one that throws tantrums!?!?!? Yes, Vader got pissed off, Vader threw tantrums and killed people when he got upset, but it was one person at a time, and it was his belief that the punishment needed to fit the crime.
Additionally, most of the action sequences were completely derivative of the initial SW films. It's like they said "oh, you need to appease the fans, so have a Death Star style trench race, and a run through the death star, etc
Finally, the whole Rey "of course, use the force" thing and then defeating Kylo Ren in a saber duel is just....words fail me. Complete and utter BS. While not completely horrible, this ranked lower than Phantom Menace on my scale of SW movies...one that I won't watch unless I have to. I would rather start at Episode 2

Then TLJ comes in.
Porgs...nuff said
Green Milk - what is seen can't be unseen. they did NOT need that in the movie
A derivative battle scene (really, borrowing from BSG)
yet ANOTHER derivative (battle scene walker attack)
Borrowing from Space Balls https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/409/692/e9c.png (this is not a parody movie)
Finn, who up to this point has been in love with Rey...wakes up and falls in love with someone completely different almost immediately.
Leia Poppins...Nuff said
Hyperspace Ramming...REALLY?
Gravity fed bomb rack...IN SPACE?!?!?!?!
Ballistic arcs for space artillery?!?!?!? Did someone not have any physics classes at all?
Hey, we can't travel faster than light and are cruising at normal speed...but we are approaching this planet and there is no way the empire can know we are headed there....again..REALLY?
Characters that had personalities established in the first movie, had them completely changed in the second movie. - and it's supposed to occur almost right after the first movie
Finally, the over the top political overtones. - don't mind political movies or political satire, but this was not the movie for either. Yes, I get it...Revenge was political too...didn't like it then either.

That doesnt sound like the writing at all, thats all details that you just described. Which is left mostly to the director. There are a LOT of shit that doesnt make sense in the SW universe (laser swords, come on....) but we still accept them as being cool cause it caught our attention. I dont think boycotting the entire franchise simply because you didnt enjoy a few details in 2 films is the right answer.

The story is going in a different direction than the previous lore because the previous stuff was, well..... a little boring. Good vs Evil, good wins, end of day. With the new direction they are headed, there are a lot more grey areas (hence the last of the jedi) which opens up both the characters and the story to a lot more options.

Thalstan · Sep 18, 2018

Printimus said:
That doesnt sound like the writing at all, thats all details that you just described. Which is left mostly to the director. There are a LOT of shit that doesnt make sense in the SW universe (laser swords, come on....) but we still accept them as being cool cause it caught our attention. I dont think boycotting the entire franchise simply because you didnt enjoy a few details in 2 films is the right answer.

The story is going in a different direction than the previous lore because the previous stuff was, well..... a little boring. Good vs Evil, good wins, end of day. With the new direction they are headed, there are a lot more grey areas (hence the last of the jedi) which opens up both the characters and the story to a lot more options.

Eh, you see it your way, I see it mine. I still see the movie as a very simplistic good vs evil thing. I am not really seeing many of the grey areas you mention. TFA has almost 0 grey areas. In fact, I think TFA has less grey areas than ESB, where Lando was a huge grey area (motivated by self interest and the interest of his city) If Vader had kept his end of the bargain, ESB would have had a very different outcome because Lando would have refused to help out at the critical juncture.

Now, ALL my comments are based on movies alone. no, I don't read the books. Yes, I am sure there are many canon things in the newer books that explain things. But when I go to a movie, I don't want to have to have read textbooks to understand a puff piece. The movie should be self contained or contained within the trilogy. It is speculated that one of the reasons it did so poorly in China is because they never developed the attachment for eps 4-6. So while there was a collective anticipation about the final scene in the US, many in China were asking...who is that and why end there?

Episodes 2 and 3 were all about the journey from good, to evil. LOTs of gray areas there, lots of time where Anikin could have chosen multiple paths, but kept sliding down the dark one. Eventually though choices were made. But Ep1..horrible. and the whole...She lost the will to live? AARRGHH. However, while dialog was cheezy, much of the story was fresh. If you look at it as a whole, SW 1-6 was the journey of Darth Vader. From good, to evil, and eventually redemption.

TFA/TLJ....what is the story. Is it the story of Kylo Ren? Is it the story of Finn, or is it the story of Rey?

In some ways, it's the Story of Kylo/Ben Solo....but he acts like a spoiled child, not the evil villain of a movie. In fact most of the first order seems....odd. However, I can attribute that to the "reboot" though. I did find some villains interesting though. Phasma and Hux. That said, I think Phasma deserved a little better for an end...and maybe an appearance/death in the 3rd movie. Hux shows much more depth of character than Kylo does though. He reminds me of Admiral Piett from the first trilogy. If you really wanted to develop an interesting movie regarding shades of gray, Piett's is the story I would really want to see.

Is it the Story of Finn? Sadly, no. Again, I see him having a great story. He didn't have a choice to join the first order. He was sold into it, then trained as a Stormtrooper. He broke free of it, and had a lot of fun, and narrow close calls, but eventually escaped. Yes, he was rendered unconscious at the end, but again, I found his story one worth telling and one that should be told...except they took a dynamic already established relationship from ep 7, and....and....yeah. nothing. So they hook him up with a new character. Yeah, Rose was a decent character, but the story told of the two really didn't grab me. Again I've only seen the movie once (in theatres) and I didn't like it enough to buy on disk

Finally, is it the story of Rey....maybe....
Well, we know it's a disney flick. After wondering about it and all the speculation about who her parents might be....they were reduced to the typical disney parents...gone/dead. They don't care. (interestingly enough, since Disney took over the franchise, most of the parents were that way. Luke/Leia were adopted true, but into loving families. Anakin had a mother that survived one whole movie and dies in a pivotal plot point in the second....all three had parents until at/near adulthood.

While I like some of the tension this built up...the climax was....completely absent. Just another typical dead Disney parent. This also carried on in Rogue One, but I really that was done for a good reason...one that made sense to the plot.

Again, while a few of the scenes in TFA were..well, just bad, I thought a few were ok. The main weakness was that much of the "fight, flight" scenes had been done before. Don't redo the same fight...make your own.

I've already listed the reason for not liking TLJ, so I won't go into it. That said, someone mentioned the strong female characters and suggested that's what I found political. No, it's the scene in the casino where they are talking about the rich people and how they sell to both sides of the conflict implying they are responsible for the whole first order thing. That's the hit you on the head with a bowling ball over the top political statement I was referring to.

personally, I think Rey and Finn are fine. I think Hux should be the main bad guy, kylo should go the way of the dodo, and Snoke....ummm....yeah no real concen there. They could take it or leave it.

The old characters should never had made it into the movie except maybe Chewie, R2, and maybe 3PO

Montoya · Sep 18, 2018

Thalstan said:
Eh, you see it your way, I see it mine.

Who do you think you are having your own opinions?

Thalstan · Sep 18, 2018

someone smart enough to join Test

Printimus · Sep 18, 2018

Thalstan said:
Eh, you see it your way, I see it mine. I still see the movie as a very simplistic good vs evil thing. I am not really seeing many of the grey areas you mention. TFA has almost 0 grey areas. In fact, I think TFA has less grey areas than ESB, where Lando was a huge grey area (motivated by self interest and the interest of his city) If Vader had kept his end of the bargain, ESB would have had a very different outcome because Lando would have refused to help out at the critical juncture.

Now, ALL my comments are based on movies alone. no, I don't read the books. Yes, I am sure there are many canon things in the newer books that explain things. But when I go to a movie, I don't want to have to have read textbooks to understand a puff piece. The movie should be self contained or contained within the trilogy. It is speculated that one of the reasons it did so poorly in China is because they never developed the attachment for eps 4-6. So while there was a collective anticipation about the final scene in the US, many in China were asking...who is that and why end there?

Episodes 2 and 3 were all about the journey from good, to evil. LOTs of gray areas there, lots of time where Anikin could have chosen multiple paths, but kept sliding down the dark one. Eventually though choices were made. But Ep1..horrible. and the whole...She lost the will to live? AARRGHH. However, while dialog was cheezy, much of the story was fresh. If you look at it as a whole, SW 1-6 was the journey of Darth Vader. From good, to evil, and eventually redemption.

TFA/TLJ....what is the story. Is it the story of Kylo Ren? Is it the story of Finn, or is it the story of Rey?

In some ways, it's the Story of Kylo/Ben Solo....but he acts like a spoiled child, not the evil villain of a movie. In fact most of the first order seems....odd. However, I can attribute that to the "reboot" though. I did find some villains interesting though. Phasma and Hux. That said, I think Phasma deserved a little better for an end...and maybe an appearance/death in the 3rd movie. Hux shows much more depth of character than Kylo does though. He reminds me of Admiral Piett from the first trilogy. If you really wanted to develop an interesting movie regarding shades of gray, Piett's is the story I would really want to see.

Is it the Story of Finn? Sadly, no. Again, I see him having a great story. He didn't have a choice to join the first order. He was sold into it, then trained as a Stormtrooper. He broke free of it, and had a lot of fun, and narrow close calls, but eventually escaped. Yes, he was rendered unconscious at the end, but again, I found his story one worth telling and one that should be told...except they took a dynamic already established relationship from ep 7, and....and....yeah. nothing. So they hook him up with a new character. Yeah, Rose was a decent character, but the story told of the two really didn't grab me. Again I've only seen the movie once (in theatres) and I didn't like it enough to buy on disk

Finally, is it the story of Rey....maybe....
Well, we know it's a disney flick. After wondering about it and all the speculation about who her parents might be....they were reduced to the typical disney parents...gone/dead. They don't care. (interestingly enough, since Disney took over the franchise, most of the parents were that way. Luke/Leia were adopted true, but into loving families. Anakin had a mother that survived one whole movie and dies in a pivotal plot point in the second....all three had parents until at/near adulthood.

While I like some of the tension this built up...the climax was....completely absent. Just another typical dead Disney parent. This also carried on in Rogue One, but I really that was done for a good reason...one that made sense to the plot.

Again, while a few of the scenes in TFA were..well, just bad, I thought a few were ok. The main weakness was that much of the "fight, flight" scenes had been done before. Don't redo the same fight...make your own.

I've already listed the reason for not liking TLJ, so I won't go into it. That said, someone mentioned the strong female characters and suggested that's what I found political. No, it's the scene in the casino where they are talking about the rich people and how they sell to both sides of the conflict implying they are responsible for the whole first order thing. That's the hit you on the head with a bowling ball over the top political statement I was referring to.

personally, I think Rey and Finn are fine. I think Hux should be the main bad guy, kylo should go the way of the dodo, and Snoke....ummm....yeah no real concen there. They could take it or leave it.

The old characters should never had made it into the movie except maybe Chewie, R2, and maybe 3PO

Fair enough, just wanted to pick your brain. Not trying to convince you that you should like the new movies. I would advise to see each one at least once, as some of them (like Solo) are pretty decent on their own.

The stories dont have to deal with one particular character or another. For instance, in TLJ, the story from my understanding (others may see it differently) is that the Jedi and Sith are no more, it isnt simply good vs evil, its not that simple anymore. Thus, the last jedi (Luke) ended while Rey and Kylo arnt really good but arnt really bad either. And in the very end of the movie, you notice the little boy picks up the sweeping broom using the force, which I think, hinted that people at random could be force sensitive, coming from all backgrounds, poor, rich, uneducated, educated, etc., not just certain bloodlines (skywalkers).

Good points you made though.

Glad we could keep this civil.

Thalstan · Sep 18, 2018

from my understanding, the force has never been about bloodlines. Yes, it was a trait that could be passed down, but there were a lot of jedi. Makes sense there would be a lot of force sensitives.

Bambooza · Sep 18, 2018

Xist said:
Indeed. I have 2 daughters! I like it twice as much.

I'm always telling my girls they can do whatever they want. Whenever some stupid boy says "you can't do that, you're a girl!" they should just ignore him and know that girls are smarter than boys and that poor little moron just doesn't know what he's talking about.

That's good advice.

Deleted member 6105 · Sep 18, 2018

I just got back from a 10 day sprint at the cult of the mouse in florida, I watched it on the plane flying down. Honestly it wasn't bad, but wasn't great in my opinion, I put it firmly in the 'meh' category. I'm not mad I wasted my time watching it, but i'm also glad I didn't pay money to see it in the theater. I love star wars, always have, (glancing at my dozen or so lego ships and 100+ black series still in their boxes hanging around my office) but I'm in the "Extremely disliked TLJ" camp for many of reasons Thalstan mentioned including the fact they killed Luke, fuck you RJ. There were so many parts of that movie that could have been cut out and been unmissed, like the milk thing, god, I didn't need to see that. Or the whole casino planet side trip. Useless, and I don't think it developed new characters at all other than to say 'business bad'.

Gender has nothing to do with it, you could switch Rey out for Ray and I would still be asking how is he so amazing at everything without any kind of training. I get she's an amazing tech, scavenger background, even accept great pilot, but she seemed to have no combat experience and went up against a much better trained, more experienced opponent. She should have been the one walking away with the scars, something to reinforce the idea she needed some training and some help. That would be great, it's all part of the hero's journey. Look what happened to Luke when he decided to charge after Vader half trained, guy ended up stumped.

Even if you take the destiny aspect into this (after all, magic space wizards) luck only gets you so far. It would like a freshee walking into my kendo club, handing him a shinai and telling him to go toe to toe with me or one of the other senior members, he's gonna get pummeled.

I believe Master Jolee Bindo explains it best, what happens when you get a little too convinced with the power the force and destiny.

Jolee Bindo and Destny

Montoya · Sep 18, 2018

Hybus said:
the whole casino planet side trip. Useless, and I don't think it developed new characters at all other than to say 'business bad'.

It was indeed a strange arc, but coming from a more casual Star Wars fan, all I got from it was that they went to the casino planet and got the code cracker. Not until this very moment reading your post did I entertain the notion that it was supposed to be some sort of message that capitalism is bad.

If you walk into a movie expecting all sorts of hidden political messages, you will walk out huffing and puffing about a movie full of hidden political messages.

I walked in expecting to see a Star Wars movie, I got exactly that, no more, no less.

Hybus said:
I get she's an amazing tech, scavenger background, even accept great pilot, but she seemed to have no combat experience and went up against a much better trained, more experienced opponent

The darkness rises and the light to meet it.

In Season 3 of Rebels, when ...

Obi wan faces off Maul, lightsabers drawn, they adjust stances several times, playing out the coming duel in their minds, seeing what their opponent is about to do, countering him and attacking, many moves deep, like chess. When they finally strike, Maul is taken out with the third move.

. Is it not within lore that Rey's abilities with the saber are from her strong connection to the force, not from training?

Hybus said:
That would be great, it's all part of the hero's journey.

I think they purposely skipped most of training part because we already saw Luke go through all that. They probably felt it was too similar of a story to have to repeat it frame for frame.

In closing here, it seems that the most hardcore of SW fans are the ones feeling the most betrayed here. I can only assume that Disney knew this would be the reaction, but had to choose between making a film that pleases the smaller hardcore segment, or a more casual vanilla type story with mass market appeal.

For me, I am just happy there are more Star Wars films, it was a long stretch between the previous trilogy and today. I hope we keep getting more stories and arcs like this for years to come!

Deleted member 6105 · Sep 19, 2018

Montoya said:
For me, I am just happy there are more Star Wars films, it was a long stretch between the previous trilogy and today. I hope we keep getting more stories and arcs like this for years to come!

Don't get me wrong, I'm still happy for more star wars movies. However I think a big part of the problem is disconnection between movies, mostly due to the directors. It's like playing telephone handing it off to the next guy. I think that was a mistake, we would have gotten a much more cohesive experience if they had stuck with one production team. I kind of compare it to the LOTR trilogy then the hobbit. In the initial one Peter Jackson had tons of time for pre production, and then shot it all at once, his vision all the way through. With the hobbit, he was just pushed to make the movie fast and capitalize while everything was still relevant in people's minds and while pretty was no where near as good.

Star wars in the trilogy format needs an over arching story, not just 'the resistance beats the bad guys' letting people do it piecemeal hurts it overall. If they would have slapped some sort of bloodline on Rey, I bet half the nerd rage would have petered out. They could have went with the Kenobi granddaughter thing, even tied it into clone wars with the Mandalorian leader he was hooked up with. Dropping it as Rey being Kenobi bloodline mixed with Mandalorian would have had everyone going 'no wonder she's such a badass' It would have even brought in all the people with the Fet fetishes.

As I enjoyed force awakens, I'm still holding out hope for Ep9

Blind Owl · Sep 19, 2018

Montoya said:
Porgs, well Disney, I get it. They need to sell merch, but Im not even seeing anybody buying those.

Green milk? I really didn't give it any thought, makes no difference in my life.

Finn is in the friend zone with Rey, I think he realized he would have a better shot with Rose. She puts out.

Leia surviving in a vacuum? A surprising and weird twist, but just as plausible as somebody being able to lift rocks using their mind.

Hyperspace ramming, yes! That is why the Empire started making more use of the Interdictor class ships! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_Star_Destroyer, they create a gravity well which prevents exactly this!

Gravity fed bombs... in space.. stupid, but the director probably has a weird fetish for WWII naval battles, which explains the ballistic arcs from Snoke's ship.

Political overtones? To be honest I never paid any attention. I went to see a Star Wars movie. I got a Star Wars movie.

I feel the same way you do Montoya. I went on opening night, I didn't read any leaks or spoilers, and I went to see a Star Wars movie. And boy did I see a Star Wars movie. It was awesome.
Imagine my surprise when this wall of hate comes raging out of a galaxy far far away for the movie. I read into it, acknowledged some of it, and went back to the theatre to see if it had changed my perception of the movie. Nope. Still awesome.

I don't go looking for agendas. I don't go looking for physics and realism. I go to be entertained. And I was.
So simple.
I grew up on this franchise. We had the comics, the movies, the toys, all the video games. Still do. My son is three and he loves Star Wars.

I just don't understand why people are so up in arms about it. I don't think Disney has destroyed anything. I think they've elevated and added to it. It's awesome.

If people want to hold on to the idea of what Star Wars is to them, and they cannot except it changing, then perhaps they need to not watch the new movies. Sit in a basement and rewatch the original trilogy over and over. I don't say had to be offensive to anyone whatsoever, but there will always be something that someone doesn't like.

Xist said:
I actually quite liked Rose. My big problem with her was that she and Finn became some of the main characters but she hardly got any screen time! There was almost NO character development for Rose and yet she is now this really integral part of the rebellion.

I really hope they do some more background on her. She's a strong and likable character who thinks of others before she thinks of herself.

The only thing that I ever heard anyone say about "political overtones" is they didn't like the increased role women had in Star Wars.

I, on the other hand, love that there are so many strong women characters now. It is far more realistic IMO.

Concur.

Montoya said:
This is because you have a daughter.

I feel the same, I have seen people bitch about SJW's forcing the movies to have strong female roles.

I honestly don't give a shit if its a male or female role lead, but I do like that my daughter can watch Rey kicking ass as the main character.

Concur

Printimus said:
That doesnt sound like the writing at all, thats all details that you just described. Which is left mostly to the director. There are a LOT of shit that doesnt make sense in the SW universe (laser swords, come on....) but we still accept them as being cool cause it caught our attention. I dont think boycotting the entire franchise simply because you didnt enjoy a few details in 2 films is the right answer.

The story is going in a different direction than the previous lore because the previous stuff was, well..... a little boring. Good vs Evil, good wins, end of day. With the new direction they are headed, there are a lot more grey areas (hence the last of the jedi) which opens up both the characters and the story to a lot more options.

I love it. I love that there are so many avenues of the human condition that can be explored with the advent of these "grey Jedi". We have realistic, human characters, driven by emotion, who are reacting to the universe around them, making connections, learning, growing...
It's amazing.

Printimus · Sep 19, 2018

Blind Owl said:
I feel the same way you do Montoya. I went on opening night, I didn't read any leaks or spoilers, and I went to see a Star Wars movie. And boy did I see a Star Wars movie. It was awesome.
Imagine my surprise when this wall of hate comes raging out of a galaxy far far away for the movie. I read into it, acknowledged some of it, and went back to the theatre to see if it had changed my perception of the movie. Nope. Still awesome.

I don't go looking for agendas. I don't go looking for physics and realism. I go to be entertained. And I was.
So simple.
I grew up on this franchise. We had the comics, the movies, the toys, all the video games. Still do. My son is three and he loves Star Wars.

I just don't understand why people are so up in arms about it. I don't think Disney has destroyed anything. I think they've elevated and added to it. It's awesome.

If people want to hold on to the idea of what Star Wars is to them, and they cannot except it changing, then perhaps they need to not watch the new movies. Sit in a basement and rewatch the original trilogy over and over. I don't say had to be offensive to anyone whatsoever, but there will always be something that someone doesn't like.

Concur.

Concur

I love it. I love that there are so many avenues of the human condition that can be explored with the advent of these "grey Jedi". We have realistic, human characters, driven by emotion, who are reacting to the universe around them, making connections, learning, growing...
It's amazing.

awww, did you just learn and grow a bit?

Thalstan · Sep 19, 2018

@Blind Owl

I didn't go in looking for an agenda either, but I felt I was being hit over the head with it. I don't know why it might have hit me harder, while others seemed to overlook it. Maybe I've just grown more cynical over the years.

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