The Hull Series - Ship Talk Commentary #2

[Black Sunder]

The Hull Series - Ship Talk Commentary #2

Pretty picture of Hull B

Welcome to Ship Talk Commentary. This is only the 2nd one in what will for sure be a long line of STCs as more new concepts are revealed. There will not be any direct stat for stat comparisons to other ships in these STCs. They need to fly or crash on their own with what they are given. This will be much less formal than the normal Talks with pictures to illustrate points and my own feelings on things. I was going to do the Hull Series as a normal Ship Talk but after reading and looking I just can't do this as a normal Talk. Not only are several needed stats missing but CIG doesn't even seem sure on some of its own stuff and other reasons I'll get to later. Again I apologize but this will be more ranty than the Vanguard.

Before I get to all that though let me say I don't hate the series, I was actually really excited to see it come out and not just the Hull C. I just don't like it as much as others. Rather my comments and complaints come from other areas regarding gameplay and the displacement of other ships in some roles. For the Record I actually got a Hull C which I may turn into something else but I wanted some sort of cargo runner and it has LTI.

Series Description

"In short, the MISC Hull series of ships is how cargo gets from place to place. An inter-connected system of ships designed around the same principles and intended to share the same equipment and maintenance processes, MISC has created the Hull A through E to provide countless options for every type of merchant.

From the single-person Hull A to the super-massive Hull E bulk freighter, there’s a Hull for every job. Each ship includes a manned cab, a drive unit and a telescoping cargo spindle. When laden, the spindle expands to accept cargo pallets; while unloaded, the spindle unfurls for faster, more maneuverable travel."

So we have a series of modular ships designed around the same pieces to make maintenance much easier and a standardized layout with the cab, spindle, and drive sections being connected. That's a great design philosophy to have and since they all share the same role it makes sense. Making sense is good. There is a Hull for every job it says. Ok even better. The different sizes for different loads. Again it makes sense.

Things are starting out well.

...And Then I Started Looking at the Pictures.

Now yes I was looking forward to this series and although I didn't have anything specific in mind I thought and was hoping for a large open bay cargo freighter like the Charon or Iteron variants from Eve Online with smaller and larger versions to use:

Charon

So I did set myself up for disappointment on look I admit but every ship to this point with the exception of 2(Aurora and Orion) has kept all its cargo internally and I believed and hoped the CIG would continue that. I don't like the exposure that the Cargo modules get being where they are. Regardless of shields they are especially vulnerable and lack the armor protection an enclosing hull would give. Once shields are down then someone or a group of people can shoot all day long at your cargo while leaving the ship relatively intact as a big Fuck You. If you're gonna kill me for my cargo then I want you to go through some trouble to get to it.

I do like the look of the ships folded up. They look like they could do some damage if they were weaponized.

General Thoughts on Stats

First let me acknowledge again that these stats and listed equipment are all subject to change. However, unless something drastic occurs in testing I would expect these stats to still give a good overall direction and capability for each ship. Below is a link to a composite picture I made with all the stats listed from the RSI site:

The detailed Hull Series page can be found here.
Full Ship Spec picture here.

Descriptions and Roles

I think we know what the Role of all these ships is. It's cargo hauling. Seriously. Lets start with the smallest ship of the Hull series the Hull A. The Hull A is sort of the 'starter' ship for serious cargo hauling. It trades the functionality that the Aurora and Mustang have and dumps it all into cargo running.

The Hull B is often compared to the Freelancer. Again it trades the multi-functionality for just pure cargo ability. The A and B are commonly used to ferry cargo from a station down to a planet surface. The B is a more rugged Hull ship. The Hull C is billed as the most common ship in the galaxy. It is also the most heavily produced which may have something to do with it. It straddles the gulf between the low end cargo ships and the super high end D and E. The C also features very modular options so it is possible to give it more defense etc if you sacrifice cargo.

The D and E are the super haulers. The D is used by mid-size orgs for cargo running and it is also typically used as a flagship for a mercantile fleet. This if the C 'probably' needs Escorts then the D really does. It is almost completely defenseless. The UEE uses modified Ds as part of their supply chain. The Hull E is just massive. You don't take one of these out without a bunch of planning and a fleet of ships ready to back it up. No solo joy rides. The load they can carry and the modularity is supposed to be unparalleled which may mean it can fulfill other roles.....

Weapons

I'm changing order up here a bit and leaving Structural for last. The weapons of the Hull Series are all gimbals of various sizes and they get larger as you go from A to E. Again the modularity of the ships will allow you to equip more than this but at the cost of cargo capacity and as you do this you will need power, shields etc. So while you CAN do this and I see many people just putting weapons all over a Hull ship, you won't be very effective because you will be SLOW and can't turn very fast.

Equipment

No equipment to talk about sadly.

Structure and Propulsion

First of all these ships are big and get bigger by about 100% as you go left to right in the picture. Their null mass is also huge. Don't expect them to maneuver well because apparently they don't have thrusters. what.....ok no thrusters listed. Just let that sink in.

Moving on to engines the ships use truly massive engines. From TR5 to a whopping TR13 in various numbers. This actually makes sense tbh. Massive loads require massive engines of power. The power plants are....not listed. Hmm.....that's another unfinished stat of several.

The good news here though is that even for the largest Hulls D and E you only need a crew of 5 to operate them. Smaller ships like the C need 3 which is very manageable and the A and B only need a single pilot. Aside from the C that has a class 7 shield...the others do not list one. ok.......

Oh I left out cargo capacity because......

A Word on Cargo

From the RSI Hull Series page:

"PLEASE NOTE: The Hull series measures carrying capacity in Standard Cargo Units, or SCU. The SCU value for previously released ships can be determined by dividing the total capacity by four. The stats page will be updated with proper SCU data shortly. For more information in cargo interaction in Star Citizen, check out today’s design post !"

This statement. This. I could forgive and look past everything else above from the looks(which I'm neutral about but disappointed) to the lackluster and unfinished stats. But this is what got me the most and why I genuinely question what is going on here. It seems on the surface that CIG has almost removed cargo hauling profession from the other ships that used to have very large capacities. The Taurus, Banu MM and a lot more. Check the graph below from Reddit:

Continued below....

 

[Black Sunder]

They have made it so that if you want to do serious hauling that you will use a Hull ship. The old Banu MM had a 6K cargo capacity. Now its 1500. The Taurus was billed as a standard freighter at 1900, now 475. The Hull B carries 600. Some ships like the Orion and Reclaimer are specialized to haul ore and salvage so it doesn't matter as much. If you thought you could make a good buck running a Freelancer MAX with a friend and have fun....well that probably won't happen unless you want to have a Hull B and the other guy flies escort. The basic message seems to be "if you want to run cargo seriously, you will use a Hull series ship and hire escorts". For TEST this won't be a problem because Montoya will say that he has a Hull E loaded and everyone will go provide drunk escort. But for a less social org or solo person it will cut and eat into whatever profits they would have made otherwise because they have to hire people.

CIG has wiped the field clean when it comes to cargo hauling and a lot of other competing options just became a whole lot less attractive. Now I know they have fiddled with cargo for a long time. At one point it as tonnage you could take and then it was volume and then freight units and now Standard Cargo Units. I know. But this feels very forced to cut down all those ships to a quarter of their previous capacity in order to promote this series as the premier hauler ship. If people think X is a good hauler they will use it, try it out, tell people and people will naturally gravitate toward those designs that work well for them while others would stagnate or only be used sparingly. That's just how it is. I see this as a very forced and harmful decision and that is all I'll say on that.

Worth it?

Well that depends on if you see yourself hauling cargo and carrying out logistics a lot. Will TEST use them a bunch? Yes. No question on that. The only question will be what Hull is used, how often, and for what loads. I got a Hull C because I will occasionally need one to carry my stuff around. That's just a fact. If I can make due with a smaller load ship I will use it but the C was the mid range option so I got it. The ship is very modular and that counts for something big in its favor. I was very much hoping that the E would be able to carry ships in it if it was a large empty hull ship like the above Charon. I haven't seen any evidence that you can haul ships around in a larger ship if you have the room and that seems to be one of the fundamental problems with logistics in this game. Especially on the frontier and a war happens.

LTI counts for alot too. On the D and E it is worth it by far I would think. The others? I think the A-C will be relatively cheap to purchase if you forget to insure it. I was a bit disappointed that they sold the E to people because I really wanted that to be something orgs have to earn the right to in the PU.

I'm sorry for the more ranty nature of this one. I'm really 50/50 on it for the reasons I've described. If you like this series as it is, Awesome. Thats good. We'll certainly be using you to run cargo, I'll be needing cargo run from my Orion. We'll need a large Logistical division. Don't let my views push you to not get one if you want one.

The Next

This week's Ship Talk will be all about the Redeemer and only the Redeemer. After the Freelancers and now this one I'm going to do the Redeemer, or Beerdeemer, if you have a bar in it. I like this sip and the possible roles it can be in. I voted for it all through the TNGS and bought one with LTI. After The Redeemer I will be doing the Constellations which I'm looking forward to as much as I did the Freelancers.

 

[Kersakov]

I really do hope they sort the cargo discrepancy out, if everyone is just in Hull's it'll be boring.
I'm getting an A and B though, mainly for LTI and in case the cargo stays as is.

 

[Liquor_and_ores]

I have to say that I didn't expect the Hull E to be sold ether, and I also thought it would have been a huge fuel hauler at that.

I had only planned on getting a Hull D that could fit a full Orion load, but I might grab a Hull E due to it having such a massive jump in cargo capacity.


it bugs me that alot of the other stats are TBA, but then again it cuts down on the massive nit picking on the RSI forums

 

[NKato]

If everyone's in Hull ships, it'll be "Happy Times" for pirates. Seriously.

This is one reason why I did not melt my BMM for any of the Hull series.

 

[Semphis Rythorn]

well lets use a MM vs a Hull ship for example

A MM is more than just a hauler, it is also a store front so you don't need to land on a planet to make some credits, you can also take this baby into the more unstable area's of space since this baby has teeth. It has also been advertised as a blockade runner as well. One more thing the cargo is internal so it has protection from the hull as well.

now the for the Hull Series

yes you can make more money with it since the Hull C-E can take more cargo space than a MM, but these ships without escort cannot defend itself very well. Not to mention that those cargo crates are external rather than internal makes it a Flying Pinata. but in the end the Hull series are mostly haulers, i can't see a Hull ship as some sort of combat ship. at best a resupplier for the fighters. In addition unless you for escorts you will most likely be in UEE space trading goods.

 

[Shutter]

These are "cargo" haulers. How many Peterbilts do you see with weaponized hard points, or 3 mile long coal or oil, or grain hauling trains? The larger of the Hull series will be operating in well traveled established trade routes, and make a very decent profit, those that don't will have plenty of escort, and the place they are going is providing a very big pay day.

*Deposits 2 UEC*

 

[Derkerter]

I wonder how viable the Hull C is for a solo pilot. It shows max crew of 3, but can 1 person hold down the fort for basic moving?
Will have either a B or C next Saturday depending on how much I'm willing to part with/raise/save. Really want the C.

 

[TheZekk]

I would like to picture a fully modded out Hull E being an interesting Gun Platform. Used in conjunction with a Cap ship to provide point defense against fighters,bombers, and torps.

It would essentially be a turret emplacement.

 

[Gearen]

Since I have an Orion, and I'm not planning to be the one who carries the cargo out of it, I just got a Hull B. For me it's the best ship for its price and it's the size of a Freelancer. Just what I need to make normal size transportation missions.

 

[Black Sunder]

I just downgraded my Hull C to a Hull B......

 

[thanatos73]

I really hope the cargo situation sorts itself out, cause I got the Freelancer for hauling small amounts of rare cargo. I mean, I could use the Cutlass for the same thing, and not worry about escorts, but if the SCU translation is right, then it won't be worth it now....just from a numbers point of view.

 

[WarrenPeace]

Here's my two cents on the Hull series: I think they rely entirely on not getting into combat.

I don't care what kind of weapon load-outs they come with, they are all massively out-gunned by anything approaching their weight class. For that matter, the Hull E is just about outgunned by a Constellation, much less anything built to take down capital ships. Their maneuverability when loaded is likely to be absolute crap, simply because of the extra mass they'll be hauling around. Those massive engines will be offset by the heavy loads, so don't expect to have much acceleration. Any fighter with a modicum of agility will be able to find blind spots and just hammer away until the Hull cracks open like a big loot piñata.

Now that I've finished slagging so hard on how bad these will be i combat, I'll try to highlight some potential upsides. If the shield info for the Hull C is correct, and that scales to the other ships in the line, they will be fairly durable. The best defensive strategy for a Hull might simply be to firewall the throttle and hunker down as you try to get clear to jump out (assuming running is a viable option in game). If you've got a fighter escort, this is the time when they try to pick off the attacker while the enemy focuses on you, or they break off the attack on you to go after your escort, letting you escape.

I'm hoping that the cargo capacities of other ships isn't reduced quite so drastically as it seems, but I've got no grounds for that hope. Where I do think other cargo ships will make up the difference is the ability to forego escorts and to trade in less secure areas. My reasoning is as follow:

• If you're flying a Hull, you're going to have to factor the risk of losing your cargo. The amount of cargo that a Hull carries relative to the ability of the ship to protect itself is far in excess of what you'll find on a MAX or a Taurus or a Merchantman. This means that flying one solo is taking on a much greater amount of risk. Every time you try to fill a Hull, you're putting a lot more net worth on the line. That means even if you're profitable 95% of the time, that 5% failure might be enough to knock your net profit below what you'd get with a comparably sized cargo vessel. This means escorts will be even more important, which leads into my next point...
• I fully expect operating costs on a Hull to be higher than a comparable cargo vessel. I'm assuming fuel costs will actually favor the Hull, seeing as those ships won't be carrying around the extra arms and armor. However, the cost of hiring an escort will likely eat into those savings, and cargo insurance will likely be much more painful. It may be that the costs of operating a Hull balance the profits you get for hauling that much cargo.
• In lawless areas, Hulls are going to be the target of choice. No larger potential for a score than a Hull with the lowest amount of risk. This may mean that most Hull pilots are going to want to stick to lawful space, leaving the other, better armed, cargo ships to suck up the riches to be found in the sectors where the law has no more influence than an IOU in a brothel.

I guess where I'm going with this is, I don't see the Hull series as the death of all other cargo vessels; rather, I see them as the safe commercial vessels preferred by big corporations shipping businesses when moving large cargoes with low risks and making all the profit off sheer economy of scale.

Not Pictured: incoming Aurora swarm.

But for those looking to move high value cargo, especially in areas far from the civilizing presence of the law, with no questions asked...

Possibly the best sitcom that never happened

Somehow, I think you'll find yourself able to make a living.

 

[SARGE]

not a big fan...
RSI/CIG could have done better...it's like the quality of the look of the ships are going down...like they are not trying hard to impress any more 'cause they got the money now...like College players vs Pro players...so much more passion on college games...my opinion.

I am considering getting a Taurus* based on that chart above.
current ships:
Freelancer Max (for solo play); Connie Andromeda*; Aurora LN** (for solo play): for cargo hulling
Carrack (when it goes on sale again—or if an Org buddy wants to be a pal); Mustang Beta** (for solo play): for exploration
Super Hornet for: dog fighting


**considering getting rid of these two (that will get me a total of 100 bucks in credit...and maybe get the Taurus without getting rid of the Andromeda (but I am left without an Aurora...how am I to BLOT out the sun without an Aurora?!)
(will the Org fill that void for me?)



PS if BMM stands for Banu...now that is a nice looking ship...

 

[AccidentProne8]

I mean, if I have a rare alien computer/artifact, like hell am I trusting a hull. I see it working out. Freelancer Max is what you use for relatively large sensitive cargos even in low sec space - or in time sensitive deliveries, hulls for b2b and corp trading in safe space/refueling and resupply for large conveys/military ops, Banu for "deal making" whatever that turns out to be (or larger sensitive cargos across species lines). The ore question remains to be answered....but am I way off mark? I think it's okay.

The more interesting thing to me is not the turret potential - but the shielding. How do you protect your space station from a torpedo barrage from afar? Perhaps a Hull C with dedicated engines/power to shield generator payloads that literally intercepts missiles. Then you have to move in close, destroy the hull and its escort, so on, so forth before you launch torps from afar. It's going to be a wild world.

 

[Liquor_and_ores]

well lets use a MM vs a Hull ship for example

A MM is more than just a hauler, it is also a store front so you don't need to land on a planet to make some credits, you can also take this baby into the more unstable area's of space since this baby has teeth. It has also been advertised as a blockade runner as well. One more thing the cargo is internal so it has protection from the hull as well.

now the for the Hull Series

yes you can make more money with it since the Hull C-E can take more cargo space than a MM, but these ships without escort cannot defend itself very well. Not to mention that those cargo crates are external rather than internal makes it a Flying Pinata. but in the end the Hull series are mostly haulers, i can't see a Hull ship as some sort of combat ship. at best a resupplier for the fighters. In addition unless you for escorts you will most likely be in UEE space trading goods.

I wonder if trading and selling on your ship will let you avoid paying taxes on the goods you off load.
If nothing else landing fees can be avoided, so a little more money

 

[SARGE]

I wonder if trading and selling on your ship will let you avoid paying taxes on the goods you off load.
If nothing else landing fees can be avoided, so a little more money

word

 

[Black Sunder]

I wonder if trading and selling on your ship will let you avoid paying taxes on the goods you off load.
If nothing else landing fees can be avoided, so a little more money

I like this idea...a lot.

 

[Liquor_and_ores]

I like this idea...a lot.

I melted my hull E that i bought with 100% store credits, I will prob rotate buy/sell all the hull ships and end up keeping a few Hull A's for CCUing.
I'll be mining and salvaging, so I will prob just contract out my hauling needs to others that are doing the trucker roles

 

[Eliyahu]

With modularity I want to make the Hull E a massive gun platform.... we shall see if that is actually possible....