[CONCERN] What if he was right?

Space Monkey

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Something else I was hoping to discuss was Chris Roberts's reaction to the whole thing. It just didn't strike me as something one would expect from someone in his position.

I'm just getting this sense of hostility, not towards me but a community I've been a part of for years (so I guess it does sorta feel like me in a sense), and that any wrongdoing is entirely on one side of the fence because of some belief that Chris Roberts can do no wrong.

I'm not out for blood, I'm not looking to tear down the dream. I'm as invested in this project as many people here are. I'm rooting for this thing to succeed, I want this the be exactly the experience every one is hoping it to be.

I just feel that Chris Roberts could've handled his response better.

But if that's not something anyone wants to discuss, or if people are gonna keep shitting on something that I've been a part of and still support, then I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.
Really not picking on you. I think it is admirable to have this point of vue. I have never heard of the Escapist before this and this isn't the best first impression but it is done.

Chris Roberts reaction: I don't understand this. For weeks, his project has been shit talked by Derek Smart and cadre. Of which Lizzy Finnegan was participating for good or bad, maybe she should have known better as a journalist. It does present of bias, no matter how it was delivered by CR. They are then implying serious felonies with prison time and shit talking his wife. How should someone be reacting especially when the guy is trying to create something pretty special. Sure he could have handled it differently but so could have Lizzy and her editors. And when he does reply it is not being beligerant. He is takign the point it seems as the article is presenting them which let me tell you is not very organized itself.

I think that this is importan to discuss and I would hope that communication doesn't get muddled.
 

Semphis Rythorn

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at the time yes we could ignore Derekt ain't smart at the beginning cause all he had was hot air. Wulf Knight discredited him when they found the the FTC had no complaints on RSI so what does the lil bitch do. he goes and rallies what people he had with him during his little gamergate get together down here in florida and twists the truth to make himself the victim (As he always fucking does).

When you start pushing the wife and kids into this Bs, you son crossed the fucking line.
this attack wasn't meant to be professional

it was meant to be personal.

you don't fuck with a man's wife and kids.
 

Tortilla the Hun

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The problem is that she had entirely anonymous sources. We have to take everything we say on faith, because there is no person that we can go to for confirmation. That, combined with past articles that show she is already biased on the topic of Star Citizen, undermine a LOT of her credibility.If, as she claims, Star Citizen is a terrible place to work and going to ultimately crash and burn, wouldn't there be more people willing to talk about it on a public basis?
I agree wholeheartedly, her previous article certainly didn't help her in the least. And there's always that pitfall with citing anonymous sources. But while they were listed as anonymous in the published article, supporting statements from the Managing Editor's article indicate the sources were vetted through their legal department as per the request of the Editor in Chief. These sources were passed through too many hands, especially from so high up the ladder, to suggest this was just some vain attempt by Lizzy Finnegan to save face from the previous article.

My take is this. The sources were never truely confirmed. The sources were ex employees who might have a grudgr against cig. They claims that were stated had no evidence. The journalist has harassed Sandi before on twitter. 24 hours is nothing in timewise. Lets say they sent it at 1400pm. By the time it got opened and escalatex to CR it was probably arounf quiting time, if it even made it to him. CR comes in at 0900 does his meeting of the day ends at 1000. Performs his his daily routine/walkaround its 1100. Takes lunch its 1200. Comes to work foes his fucking job for 2 hours its 1400.

There is a common way to hit someone with a 24 hour timestamp and give them mo tome to respond. I have done this and had it done to me. I have sent reports to leadership with a 24 hour timestamp for dissapproval/approval and sent it a few hours before closing. They dont have time to respind so i get the choice. By the time the article was published CR had to respond and did it in a emotional way a farcry from his usual calm writing. Not only that they attacked his wife. Thats enough to make any husband go into a emotional state.
It's truly unfortunate that readers have no way of confirming the sources, but the Managing Editor supports the legitimacy of the sources. This isn't just from some blog a handful of people run in their free-time. This is from a publication that has been around for years, several of which I've been a reader, and not the sort of place where people can just freely post what they please and have it promoted as a featured article. There's a vetting process for every featured article with sources that need to be verified before it's published.

As for the 24 hours, it seems I had missed the part in Roberts's response (admittedly, I was more focused on the timestamps) where he stated he had worked on the response for around eight hours, much of which was in the late night/early morning. It makes his response more understandable (I don't know many people who are even coherent that time of day) and I can sympathize with that. Especially considering the allegations against his wife.

CS3 "I'm guessing something will come out,"

-Confirmed!
Everything aside, this brought a smile to my face.

Getting back to the discussion, regarding the allegations I think it's important that, as Chris Roberts even noted in his letter, "As always, there are two sides to each story." What is presented in the article are the stories of the employees, both current and non. It's certainly not the whole picture and, as I've been saying from the beginning, not categorically factual. If, and it's a very big if, any number of allegations turns out to be true, I find it highly unlikely that CIG would be quick to corroborate that. On the other hand, it really does put CIG in a bind because some of the information they really are in no position to be disclosing. Truly an unfortunate predicament.

But I'm confident they weren't simply conjectures from a few people that were shuffling papers at a desk for just handful of hours a week. Conjectures they may be, but the level of experience within the company does matter, I think. There was a process in choosing who to quote and who to use as sources and the editor was confident these people were in a position to at least have some grasp on the operations. I have confidence in the editor's abilities, but you are of course free to place as much or as little confidence in him as you'd like.

As for the allegations specifically against Roberts and Gardiner, it's not unreasonable to see them as personal attacks. However, when money from the company comes into question, it is no longer a personal matter but a matter of the company and it's finances. I have no opinion on this other than it's a simple matter of perspective. In my, admittedly limited, experience, when it comes to the use of company funds there's a bit of a grey area. Embezzlement has a very broad spectrum. Taking a few paperclips from the office or using the company car to run an errand? Yeah, that's embezzlement. Is it going to destroy the very foundation of the company? Not likely. Those employees can cry foul all they want, but if it's something (proportionally) minor, then it's really no big deal.

After more thought and more reading, I'll go ahead and say that yeah, there is definitely some bias on the part of Lizzy Finnegan especially regarding her previous article. And honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about the allegations that have been made. As with any anonymous source, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. Or perhaps a rock of salt in this case. I have more than enough confidence in both the publication process and integrity of The Escapist editorial staff to not believe that this was just some hatchet job thrown up for the sake of attention. And I have more than enough confidence in Chris Roberts and CIG to believe in their work and genuineness in realizing their dream.

Suffice it to say my feelings in this matter are complicated.
 

Space Monkey

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Look in the end, after having gone though all of the quotes of these sources, I really feel sorry for Lizzy and that she wasn't helped better by her editors. To me, when looking at the quotes together, it paints a picture of the person. This is the only sort of verification we can do to see if the person seems like they are together and actually make sense. To me, a lot of these people seem like either they don't have a clue or they have an axe to grid. The more lucid quotes and the important points get watered down don't mean much with all of the garbage thrown in. This is why you have to use anonymous sources very carefully and not quote them saying every little thing that comes up just because it's sensational. In the end, the writer got hurt and doesn't look credible. This all falls on Lizzy because she wrote this.
 

Krystal LeChuck

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I really could've done without all the sarcasm and snark.
There is zero sarcasm and snark in my reply. I don't know where you got that from.

Did Lizzy Finnegan jump the gun on publishing her piece? Very probably. But she, and more importantly the managing editor, felt there was reason enough to move forward with this.
There have always been strict deadlines for publishing an article in printed press. This was mostly if not entirely due to the fact that it should have reached the presses by a certain time. Why did they give that kind of deadline to one of the busiest people in the game development world, 10 days before a major event? Would the website shut down for the night if they got a late reply and the article wouldn't post?

But I will say that The Escapist has never once struck me as the kind of publication to not only allow but promote falsified information and blatant lies from any of their contributors.
Besides their previous Star Citizen article? Also how serious do you consider this publication after they decided to give a sarcastic badge to readers of the Star Citizen article saying "Star Citizen, Release Date TBD"
Lizzy Finnegan had a circle jerk podcast where she and some others were openly making fun of CIG and Star Citizen development. That doesn't seem like an unbiased journalist at least to my eyes.

I consider myself a true GamerGater. I am so true to my beliefs that I even went as far as to SUPPORT!!!! Derek Smart when he was (probably for the first time in his life) unfairly attacked by a bunch of feminazis. It is not that Chris Roberts can do no wrong. It is that he hasn't. If he does and I see so I will be the first one in the mob, holding a pitchfork.
 
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ReconDelta

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I'm no attorney. So my question if this turns out Chris Roberts has indeed bilked nearly 1 million people out of their money in a massive pyramid scheme, wouldn't he have committed several felonies? Wouldn't CR be thrown in jail like Bernie Madoff and all of his assets personal and corporate be ceased? The assets would be distributed to his debtors, mostly us and the CIG employees.

CR made quite a bit of money in his previous business endeavors. He established an Intellectual Property (IP) worth hundreds of millions to several billion. He has pushed technology forward if the tech demos are to believed and this technology is valuable. CR is a respected member in game development and the entertainment industry.

Why would CR jeopardize everything for a mere 100 million? Knowing he would be caught and experience severe hardship? This does not add up.

Am I missing something?
 

thanatos73

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OK, so, there are a few people who have noticed a very large white thing standing in the corner. It seems, at first glance, to be unimportant, but, don your tinfoil hats, cause here it comes.

Who has the most to gain, if CIG fails?

Who has the most to lose, if CIG sucsceeds?

Who has already been shown to have NO MORALS when it comes to making a buck?

They have been selling the same regurgitated, reskinned, crap for years.
Other than SC, what has been the last ORIGINAL game to be published?

If there was anyone, who thinks they could pull off some movie level BS like this, its the big game publishers. Hell, they've been doing it for years. Here have another C.O.D., we made the explosions explodier, and the blood bloodier. Oh, look, have another Mass Effect, but we moved it to another Galaxy, so its not the same.

And as far as development timelines? We have more game now, than most, if not all, of the major publishers, would have in the same amount of time. Hell, StarMade has been under development for 10 years, granted a way smaller team, and it wasn't pushed to the public till recently, but look at some of the other AAA titles, 5 to 7 years, on average.

OK, so that's the beginning, I'm on my phone, so typing all this was painfull. I will finish my thoughts later....
 

DragonHeart

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The new article by The Escapist, if I understand them correctly, "its true because we say its true".
If they couldn't even reveal one of their sources as evidence for the nature of their serious allegations to be true, they shouldn't have posted such a damaging article towards CIG in the first place.
They even admitted to conversing with DS's rants as basis for their allegations, when they also agreed that DS is an online troll and habitual liar in their pod cast.

I believe equal respect should be given towards those that show respect, in which case The Escapist deserved none.
They have been hostile from the beginning and gave CR 24 hours to respond to their accusations.
Who are they to demand CR, the Chairman of CIG only 24 hours to respond to such a weak case?

There is no benefit whatsoever to defame a crowd funded project of this magnitude, that depends on the good faith and support of the gaming community. CIGs success will be monumental, their failure will be devastating to the gaming industry in general, in which case the backers will lose their pledges and take the brunt of the fallout anyway, so why does The Escapist even bother with such bullshit if not for click bait?

They did this for the employee? for the ex-employees who got fired or left because they of course did not fit within the company culture?
That is their personal problems, and if they don't like their job, they should seek to move along, not attack the company from the inside by reporting it to the media.
If there really was a problem with funding, HR, and CRs attitude, there would be many solid and credible sources.
Evidence is EVIDENCE, and rants are BULLSHIT.

PS: I was part of the silent majority that quietly watched from the sidelines, however The Escapist has defamed the SC project, reducing funding opportunities, chances of its success, increased our waiting time, and maybe even all our pledges if the project fails. Many more from the community will join to support CIG, because its what we believe in, and until there is valid reason for concern, everything else like The Escapist article will be bullshit and ignored.

Edit: this post might come off as a little hostile towards The Escapist, but its 4am for me here and who cares about them right lol.

Edit: here are the statements of current CIG employees, solid and credible sources.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/287257/a-cig-employee-s-perspective/p1

Edit: still some good journalism out there, a recent 2 part interview by Gamers Nexus.
http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2114-chris-roberts-star-citizen-on-dx12-vulkan-and-tech
http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2119-chris-roberts-on-star-citizen-network-and-render-pipelines
 
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Tortilla the Hun

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There is zero sarcasm and snark in my reply. I don't know where you got that from.
That was more towards your comment in the previous reply:

Unfortunately my integrity as a journalist(because I decided to call myself one) and the Code of Ethics will not allow me to ever reveal those sources. I will also post an entire article repeating how true all of the above are and that I'm a good journalist.
But that may have just been me taking that as targeted toward me.

Besides their previous Star Citizen article? Also how serious do you consider this publication after they decided to give a sarcastic badge to readers of the Star Citizen article saying "Star Citizen, Release Date TBD"
Lizzy Finnegan had a circle jerk podcast where she and some others were openly making fun of CIG and Star Citizen development. That doesn't seem like an unbiased journalist at least to my eyes.
I was aware of the bias of the previous article, and I agree (as does a significant part of the community) that the badge was entirely unnecessary and uncalled for snipe on part of Lizzy Finnegan. And I happened to watch the podcast after reading your reply and I just simply couldn't believe what I was seeing. Any points they brought up, and concerns they wanted to speak about were muddled by taking cheap shots and generally treating it as one big joke.

I'm very disappointed and disheartened at the way they've presenting this whole thing. I stood where I did because I thought it was right, but this has been a pretty big letdown. And now I'm walking away with no small amount of egg on my face.

I'll make it clear that I'm not in support of Finnegan and her position. I will continue to support the Escapist community at large because it is a place that welcomes open discourse on even the most polarizing of topics. It's a place where I feel welcome. A place where I've met very good people. A place very much like what is here. But I'm not going to support the recent reports/articles regarding Star Citizen.

My thoughts on the allegations themselves are in my previous reply to Space Monkey. Those may change with time and further discussion, but I don't think I'll be participating in further discussion within this thread.
 

Krystal LeChuck

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That was more towards your comment in the previous reply:

But that may have just been me taking that as targeted toward me.
That was targeted towards the recent Escapist article, where they explained their sources, code of ethics, etc. Why would it be targeted towards you? Did you write any of it?

Dude, as I said earlier:

I consider myself a true GamerGater. I am so true to my beliefs that I even went as far as to SUPPORT!!!! Derek Smart when he was (probably for the first time in his life) unfairly attacked by a bunch of feminazis. It is not that Chris Roberts can do no wrong. It is that he hasn't. If he does and I see so I will be the first one in the mob, holding a pitchfork.
Everyone is entitled to support a community. I wish I had your enthusiasm about a journal as well(oh wait, I have! It is called TEST Gaming :P), however my experience in this market has shown me that the pen comes packed with the agenda. I wish someone will prove me wrong. It will be a great day for game development.
 

thanatos73

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And here I sit, now in front of my desktop, wondering how deep the rabbit goes....

OK, not really. I do wonder, to what lengths some of the Big Game Publishers would go to ensure their steady stream of income. If you think about it, this wouldn't be anymore than an ad campaign for one of their "new" titles. Some cash to IGN, "new" game on the landing page, some cash to The Escapist, good review of "new" game, and so on. Now they see a crowdfunded game, making almost $100 million, and they get scared, now they take a page out of our illustrious U.S. politicians play book. If we can't buy the competition, then cover them in so much mud that no one will even want to be associated with them. Big business does this kind of thing all the time, we all know this, why is it so hard for people to see this? Its normal, now all we have to do is show that its not going to work.
I stopped playing games for a while because they were the same dribble that has been pushed on us for years, I don't want to play the same game with a different skin, I don't want to be led by the hand through the game, only being given the illusion of choice. The current state of the entire gaming industry feels like NASCAR to me, right now..... Left Turn, Left Turn....Left Turn.....oh look....Left Turn. The problem is it has become easy money for the BGP, safe money. With trying to sound melodramatic, its almost the Dark Age of gaming.

But along comes Star Citizen, crowdfunded, and something completely different. Do you like FPS, SC has it, like crafting, SC has it, Space Sim fanatic?, SC has it, mini-games, done, Trading, no problem. there is no possible way you could get bored with this game, there is to much to do, to much to see, to many different ways to play. SC is the ray of hope that I, and what looks to be at least 900k other people have been hoping for. I want to do everything in my power to help make sure this 'Verse comes to light.

There, I have said my piece,
now its tome to Ramble On...
CYA in the 'Verse guys....
 

honcho12

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And here I sit, now in front of my desktop, wondering how deep the rabbit goes....

OK, not really. I do wonder, to what lengths some of the Big Game Publishers would go to ensure their steady stream of income. If you think about it, this wouldn't be anymore than an ad campaign for one of their "new" titles. Some cash to IGN, "new" game on the landing page, some cash to The Escapist, good review of "new" game, and so on. Now they see a crowdfunded game, making almost $100 million, and they get scared, now they take a page out of our illustrious U.S. politicians play book. If we can't buy the competition, then cover them in so much mud that no one will even want to be associated with them. Big business does this kind of thing all the time, we all know this, why is it so hard for people to see this? Its normal, now all we have to do is show that its not going to work.
I stopped playing games for a while because they were the same dribble that has been pushed on us for years, I don't want to play the same game with a different skin, I don't want to be led by the hand through the game, only being given the illusion of choice. The current state of the entire gaming industry feels like NASCAR to me, right now..... Left Turn, Left Turn....Left Turn.....oh look....Left Turn. The problem is it has become easy money for the BGP, safe money. With trying to sound melodramatic, its almost the Dark Age of gaming.

But along comes Star Citizen, crowdfunded, and something completely different. Do you like FPS, SC has it, like crafting, SC has it, Space Sim fanatic?, SC has it, mini-games, done, Trading, no problem. there is no possible way you could get bored with this game, there is to much to do, to much to see, to many different ways to play. SC is the ray of hope that I, and what looks to be at least 900k other people have been hoping for. I want to do everything in my power to help make sure this 'Verse comes to light.

There, I have said my piece,
now its tome to Ramble On...
CYA in the 'Verse guys....
We need to burn EA to the ground with our yawspoons and tinfoil hats!
 
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If you do, could you just... just avoid the SWTOR section of the building? I'm really enjoying the story...
Nope because of battlefield: star wars aka star wars battlefront.
 
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