3.14 PTU Wave 1 is out

Shadow Reaper

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Other than the Shotgun (800) and the tank gun (612) all of the Size 5 guns are, according to Erkul, 700m/s. Size 4 and lower are 1400m/s for the repeaters and 700m/s for the canons.

To shoot fighters you are supposed to use repeaters.
My bad. I was still in old view on erkul when I thought I was in new view.

I think the reason I'm experiencing a lot of anger here, is that I'm generally something of a crack sniper shot and CIG has removed that dynamic from combat. You can't snipe with a weapons that move 700m/s and no significant range advantage. So yeah, that hurts and I'm trying to not be pissed.

If missiles were free I could understand what CIG is doing, but even then, all they've done is made the Lancer MIS the ship to beat in the verse. This was all very poorly executed, IMHO. Removing choice from the player is seldom a good idea, and making all the ranges and weapon speeds the same certainly removes choice. Bad call. Bad, bad, bad, IMHO.
 
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Deroth

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My bad. I was still in old view on erkul when I thought I was in new view.

I think the reason I'm experiencing a lot of anger here, is that I'm generally something of a crack sniper shot and CIG has removed that dynamic from combat. You can't snipe with a weapons that move 700m/s and no significant range advantage. So yeah, that hurts and I'm trying to not be pissed.

If missiles were free I could understand what CIG is doing, but even then, all they've done is made the Lancer MIS the ship to beat in the verse. This was all very poorly executed, IMHO. Removing choice from the player is seldom a good idea, and making all the ranges and weapon speeds the same certainly removes choice. Bad call. Bad, bad, bad, IMHO.
It is my hope, and understanding, they're planning a balance pass for ships first by manufacturer, then by individual ship, then move onto balance pass on individual weapons and shields to give them variety again. (This is based off conversations in Spectrum chat with members of CIG.) Unfortunately, I don't have any sort of timeline on when to expect to see these changes.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Lets hope you're right and they reclaim the terrific diversity of choice the players used to have.

I always look for something unusual that offers some advantage I can leverage in game. If they make all the weapons the same range, speed, etc., there's no way to create an unusual combo. Kinda puts the lie to the intention of making ships customizable.

And no. I see no reason to squeeze combat down to 2km when many of us can hit targets at 5 km. That is FUBAR.

As to the Vanguard, if what CIG is saying is, the chin mount is only useful against large and cap class ships, I don't think I want one. Not the way it is. CIG has been disadvantaging the Vanguard over and over for more than two years now and they need to give something back. Apart from the failure to deliver on module use, they need to give the Vanguard players something in exchange for screwing up their ships. Either give us the ability to swap the S5 mount for a pair of fixed S4, or something similar.
 

Dirtbag_Leader

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Lets hope you're right and they reclaim the terrific diversity of choice the players used to have.

I always look for something unusual that offers some advantage I can leverage in game. If they make all the weapons the same range, speed, etc., there's no way to create an unusual combo. Kinda puts the lie to the intention of making ships customizable.

And no. I see no reason to squeeze combat down to 2km when many of us can hit targets at 5 km. That is FUBAR.
Naw, I remain steadfastly optimistic for the reasons I cited earlier. They're doing this intentionally but just for the short term so they can FORCE the playbase to focus on what they need us to do for them this patch: co-piloting, missile mode, and power balancing. If they left the Sentinel and its guns alone, for example, then I'd end up just do the same bountyhunting in 3.14 that I did in 3.13. So they needed to make it shittier to force me out of that old mode and into trying out the new stuff they need me to test out for the next couple months, but then they'll work out how to restore all the old perks/diversity/customization etc. appropriately with the 'new' system(s). So hey, let's make a deal: how about we crew up some in 3.14; I'll ride in your Vanguard turret and you can ride in my Vanguard turret, and together we'll find a way to make them still potent ships in 3.14! :D Plus, maybe now my Harbinger won't suck so goddamn much compared to the Sentinel. . .
 

Deroth

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Naw, I remain steadfastly optimistic for the reasons I cited earlier. They're doing this intentionally but just for the short term so they can FORCE the playbase to focus on what they need us to do for them this patch: co-piloting, missile mode, and power balancing. If they left the Sentinel and its guns alone, for example, then I'd end up just do the same bountyhunting in 3.14 that I did in 3.13. So they needed to make it shittier to force me out of that old mode and into trying out the new stuff they need me to test out for the next couple months, but then they'll work out how to restore all the old perks/diversity/customization etc. appropriately with the 'new' system(s). So hey, let's make a deal: how about we crew up some in 3.14; I'll ride in your Vanguard turret and you can ride in my Vanguard turret, and together we'll find a way to make them still potent ships in 3.14! :D Plus, maybe now my Harbinger won't suck so goddamn much compared to the Sentinel. . .
Get an Hurricane until they fix the Vanguard!
Granted, S2 shields are busted right now (CIG stated they should be about four times as much health as S1s, but are actually only 2.777 times the health), the turret can't pitch right now, and it maneuvers like a freight train, but it is seriously a lot of fun with a gunner (was running Group HRTs last night with a gunner, was a lot of fun, even when we took a bunch of missiles due to issues with the new MoM system and how it is implemented for NPCs.)
 

Richard Bong

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It is my hope, and understanding, they're planning a balance pass for ships first by manufacturer, then by individual ship, then move onto balance pass on individual weapons and shields to give them variety again. (This is based off conversations in Spectrum chat with members of CIG.) Unfortunately, I don't have any sort of timeline on when to expect to see these changes.
The problem is these actions do not even head in the direction they claim they want to go.
 

Deroth

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Any chance of getting some contributions to these 3.14 PTU ICs?

Turret start up issue

Power keybinds incorrect

Banu Singe S2 weapons are totally useless

S2 Shields Have Less Health than Indicated
 

Richard Bong

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With the new changes to ammo count, now, not only is my Vanguard getting hangared but so is my Hawk, the Connie, and my loaner Hammerhead.

The Hawk because it doesn't have enough power to run all energy plus shields (forget about the agility nerf).

The Hammerhead because it can't effectively defend itself much less anything it is Escorting.

My fleet is quickly becoming ineffective at anything it was designed to do. I am down to running cargo in my MSR (no point in the Connie for that), which is crap, and missile spamming with my Eclipse and my Cutlass Blue.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I'm happy you still have fun activities to pursue. Lets hope the weapons nerf is very short lived. It does sound like CIG anticipated their oversimplification would need quick remedy. Just remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Shoot CIG a note. They've asked for feedback. That may be part of what this is all a bout--they want more players giving feedback rather than just playing the Alpha, which makes sense.
 

Bambooza

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I'm happy you still have fun activities to pursue. Lets hope the weapons nerf is very short lived. It does sound like CIG anticipated their oversimplification would need quick remedy. Just remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Shoot CIG a note. They've asked for feedback. That may be part of what this is all a bout--they want more players giving feedback rather than just playing the Alpha, which makes sense.
They do indeed like constructive feedback. But I am not sure I would say it's a nerf or a simplification of combat, so much as expanding the gameplay feature set of combat to include more complexity while still missing critical systems like armor, penetration, physicalization, subsystems, and power distribution pathways.

While it would be helpful to have all these features added on at the same time, it's an unfortunate side effect that each time one of these game features is implemented combat will be disrupted and ship balancing will need to be tweaked with the new rule sets. We saw this before when they were working on dynamic flight modeling and prior to that with combat speed.

So yes things have changed but the good news is it's going to change many more times before they have implemented the game features they have so far mentioned as wanting with combat.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I want to agree and in general I do, but it is certainly an oversimplification that they reset all the weapons ranges and speeds as one of just two. That's FUBAR, but they did say this is the beginning of many changes and they will go back and supply the rich diversity we're used to. Yeah, eventually we'll be happy they fixed missile combat, but there ain't nothin' gonna make me happy about the screwy weapons speeds and ranges. They need to fix that. If they don't ever restore an S5 weapon to a nice speed and therefore nerf all possible sniping in game, I'll be sour, but I'll get over it. I will not get over dozens of weapons all with identical stats. That's just ridiculous.

My compliments to Richard for simply taking a new path. I'm pursuing a new interest, discovering what smuggling with the 315P is all about. (If the guns don't work, look at something that doesn't use them.) I've had a long standing ambiguity over which is the better starter ship, the Titan or the 315. The latter has enough to live out of, much better range and 50% more cargo space. Researching the vids seems to say that some vice routes are flyable once every ten minutes and should yield about 45k aUEC, or 270 aUES/hour. That's pretty darn good for a newbie flying such a cheap ship, and it opens up exploration, mining, salvage soon to come, etc. Looks good for just about every task in game except fighting with your ship, which right now is FUBAR. Teaches stealth, simple game mechanics of travel, the crime system, etc. Looks like a decent starter path for players who don't want to specialize in combat right out of the gate. And, when they get those tractor beams working. . .

The 315 is serviceable right out of the box except the weirdo "Other" Q Drive it comes with is horrid. What does that do well? I don't get it. Sleek, fast ship sporting the slowest Q drive in game.
 

Richard Bong

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I'm happy you still have fun activities to pursue. Lets hope the weapons nerf is very short lived. It does sound like CIG anticipated their oversimplification would need quick remedy. Just remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Shoot CIG a note. They've asked for feedback. That may be part of what this is all a bout--they want more players giving feedback rather than just playing the Alpha, which makes sense.
I don't consider those as especially fun. :)

It does mean they are getting no more money out of me any time soon.
 

Richard Bong

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They do indeed like constructive feedback. But I am not sure I would say it's a nerf or a simplification of combat, so much as expanding the gameplay feature set of combat to include more complexity while still missing critical systems like armor, penetration, physicalization, subsystems, and power distribution pathways.

While it would be helpful to have all these features added on at the same time, it's an unfortunate side effect that each time one of these game features is implemented combat will be disrupted and ship balancing will need to be tweaked with the new rule sets. We saw this before when they were working on dynamic flight modeling and prior to that with combat speed.

So yes things have changed but the good news is it's going to change many more times before they have implemented the game features they have so far mentioned as wanting with combat.
To be fair, the changes do not appear to be an intentional nerf of anything.

It does appear, however, that they did not think the combination of what they did through before implementation.

It not only doesn't but can't accomplish the stated goals of making combat closer, last longer and more fun. Reducing weapon ranges does, indeed, force combat to be closer but it also compresses the engagement ranges so that it forces one style of combat, which doesn't work for all ships.

Adding things to manage does indeed slow combat, but it also makes ships not maneuver as well which forces combat further apart.

Dumping ship agility forces combat further apart.

The goal is fine. The methodology doesn't head in the direction of the goal.
 
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Deroth

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Ships with multiple pilot weapons, like the Vanguard and Hawk were definitely hurt the worst by these changes as the capacitors being synced by ship size means they don't have enough to effectively use energy weapons, but they do really blow through things when loaded up with ballistic weapons (plus can set the capacitor power distribution to Weapons: 0%, Shields: 60%, Engines: 40%, or something similar, to get increased shield performance and bonuses to engines and booster) until they run out of ammo.

I've never liked the Connie and these changes don't alter that at all (my biggest issue with them has always been the poor turret placement causing poor coverage with no interlocking of sectors of fire.)

The Hammerhead does seem to be in a strange place right now, if you can manage to get a crew for all of the turrets then it is incredibly powerful loaded up with energy weapons, but I can't see it being fun anymore for anyone if they're flying it solo or with a limited crew.

On the plus side, ships that the community had in general tossed in the trash heap are now starting to shine.
 
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vahadar

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I have been practicing today in AC the ship changes for 3.14 and the various weapon changes.

The change I regret the most is for the Sabre loosing one shield. The rest is balanced.
As for weapons, I have tested how many small fighters you can kill with decent skills using ballistic gatlings, if varies between 3 and 5 kills for S3 fixed guns depending on number of guns (3 guns like on gladius, or 4 guns like saber). The dps is much better but indeed you need to count each shot fired. If you just spray you will likely kill nothing and run out of ammo quickly. I find this very interesting. Now I guess that because of this many people will use lasers as their weapon of choice.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Automatic weapons are almost never intended to be used continuously. It's point and squeeze a bunch of shots off, release, point, repeat. With the capacitors people are going to learn to do this even with energy weapons.

That said, ballistics should last more than 30 seconds fire time in overclock, given the length of engagements in SC. Twice that would be fine.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Anyone flying a Stealth Shrike under the new missile rules? I'm curious how that is working now.

The Shrike has such good IR numbers you can actually skip the stealth coolers and go for a pair of industrial Ultraflow--almost tripling the cooling rate and enabling the ship to reenter stealth over and over. Given the new emphasis on missiles, seems worth checking to see how the Shrike performs. From 4-10 km it ought to be a real murderer.
 
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GPcustoms

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Pros and cons,...pros and cons. The ptu has been interesting but honestly some of the ship changes such as capacitor/weapons are to much elite dangerous for my tastes...:drunk:
I shall endeavor to persevere,...... :o7: .
 
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Cugino83

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Pros and cons,...pros and cons. The ptu has been interesting but honestly some of the ship changes such as capacitor/weapons are to much elite dangerous for my tastes...:drunk:
I shall endeavor to persevere,...... :o7: .
Well considering that the E:D idea is the evolution of what was implemented in X-Wing back in the days, considering CR claim the willing to have a StarWars felling for space combat... I think the plan is coming togheter.
 

Richard Bong

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Ships with multiple pilot weapons, like the Vanguard and Hawk were definitely hurt the worst by these changes as the capacitors being synced by ship size means they don't have enough to effectively use energy weapons, but they do really blow through things when loaded up with ballistic weapons (plus can set the capacitor power distribution to Weapons: 0%, Shields: 60%, Engines: 40%, or something similar, to get increased shield performance and bonuses to engines and booster) until they run out of ammo.

I've never liked the Connie and these changes don't alter that at all (my biggest issue with them has always been the poor turret placement causing poor coverage with no interlocking of sectors of fire.)

The Hammerhead does seem to be in a strange place right now, if you can manage to get a crew for all of the turrets then it is incredibly powerful loaded up with energy weapons, but I can't see it being fun anymore for anyone if they're flying it solo or with a limited crew.

On the plus side, ships that the community had in general tossed in the trash heap are now starting to shine.
The Vanguard Warden and the Hawk are my two primary fighters.
 
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