Gamergate girl on Nightline
- Thread starter CitizenDad
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Not to be an instigator or anything, but this is just more cherry picking, whining cause I need attention BS. There is a very small grain of truth to the issue, but the Video Game industry has made strides in getting women out of the "idolization" role and into the lead role. Big problem is, games are targeted at their primary audience...YOUNG ADULT MALES.
I have read several articles that claim women 20-35 are 66% of the "gaming" audience, but this included cell/smart phone games, web browser games such as Big Fish, and other non-traditional games. My wife plays Big Fish almost daily, and plays games on her smart phone atleast once a week. She does not consider herself to be a gamer. And I think we looked at the purchases of "gaming" computers and consoles, we would see that the vast majority of them are purchased by men.
Maybe I am just old and too tied into the idea that men are gamers, nope thats not it either. I know female gamers, have played with female gamers, and treat them no different than I do male gamers. I guess my idea of a gamer is someone that plays detailed or en-depth games. Maybe this is were I am getting screwed up, my definition of a "gamer".
ThomSirveaux
Space Marshal
The first video I posted in my response on the first page details this. The statistic that women are now a large majority of the gaming audience mistakenly includes "candy crush" or even solitaire as "gaming."
Not to be an instigator or anything, but this is just more cherry picking, whining cause I need attention BS. There is a very small grain of truth to the issue, but the Video Game industry has made strides in getting women out of the "idolization" role and into the lead role. Big problem is, games are targeted at their primary audience...YOUNG ADULT MALES.
I have read several articles that claim women 20-35 are 66% of the "gaming" audience, but this included cell/smart phone games, web browser games such as Big Fish, and other non-traditional games. My wife plays Big Fish almost daily, and plays games on her smart phone atleast once a week. She does not consider herself to be a gamer. And I think we looked at the purchases of "gaming" computers and consoles, we would see that the vast majority of them are purchased by men.
Maybe I am just old and too tied into the idea that men are gamers, nope thats not it either. I know female gamers, have played with female gamers, and treat them no different than I do male gamers. I guess my idea of a gamer is someone that plays detailed or en-depth games. Maybe this is were I am getting screwed up, my definition of a "gamer".
My wife LOVES Candy Crush. She'll play it for a few hours at night when we're watching TV, and then in bed. She is not, however, a "gamer" by any stretch, and wonders what I see in my video games (Such as SC, Dishonored, Bioshock: Infinite, etc). So, yeah, including them in that stat is just shady.
That didnt take long. So, after my last post, I decided to do some research on what makes a "gamer" a Gamer. Oddly enough, the answer came from...drum roll please....A Girl. Yes, thats right.
linky http://www.themarysue.com/proud-to-be-a-gamer/
tldr?
Here is a quote from her story and what I think defines a Gamer.
"To be fair, there are a few assumptions I will make about you if you tell me you’re a gamer. First, I will assume that you get excited about games, and that you will be happy to talk about them with me."
The excitement about a game. Doesn't matter what console, OS, or media format. Wanting to share the excitement and experience of the game, this is what a Gamer does. That is why forums follow games and communities of gamers create places like Test, Reddit, and my other realistic Tactical Gaming Community, Tactical Gamers. To share in the joy of playing a game.
linky http://www.themarysue.com/proud-to-be-a-gamer/
tldr?
Here is a quote from her story and what I think defines a Gamer.
"To be fair, there are a few assumptions I will make about you if you tell me you’re a gamer. First, I will assume that you get excited about games, and that you will be happy to talk about them with me."
The excitement about a game. Doesn't matter what console, OS, or media format. Wanting to share the excitement and experience of the game, this is what a Gamer does. That is why forums follow games and communities of gamers create places like Test, Reddit, and my other realistic Tactical Gaming Community, Tactical Gamers. To share in the joy of playing a game.
Overlord
Captain
Personally I have no problem discussing the issue. What? Are we so game oriented we can't discuss anything outside Star Citizen, especially issues directly related with gaming? And your points are well put and something worth thinking about; something we need more of or the media will have their way with us - again. Like the gaming media said: THE PC IS DEAD!
Not to be an instigator or anything, but this is just more cherry picking, whining cause I need attention BS. There is a very small grain of truth to the issue, but the Video Game industry has made strides in getting women out of the "idolization" role and into the lead role. Big problem is, games are targeted at their primary audience...YOUNG ADULT MALES.
I have read several articles that claim women 20-35 are 66% of the "gaming" audience, but this included cell/smart phone games, web browser games such as Big Fish, and other non-traditional games. My wife plays Big Fish almost daily, and plays games on her smart phone atleast once a week. She does not consider herself to be a gamer. And I think we looked at the purchases of "gaming" computers and consoles, we would see that the vast majority of them are purchased by men.
Maybe I am just old and too tied into the idea that men are gamers, nope thats not it either. I know female gamers, have played with female gamers, and treat them no different than I do male gamers. I guess my idea of a gamer is someone that plays detailed or en-depth games. Maybe this is were I am getting screwed up, my definition of a "gamer".
In the quest for a larger patreon, professional victims must keep searching for farther and farther reaching outlets to profess victim status.
Huegpaynis
Space Marshal
There's nothing wrong with talking about the issue, especially if we can actually discuss it. Part of the reason I dislike the continued media coverage of gamersgate is because of how polarizing said media coverage of it is; there's zero room for an opinion that doesn't neatly slot in with either of the two prominent camps. You're either 100% on board with the lady/a diehard feminist, or you're with the gamers and some slack-jawed trogolodyte if you believe what's said on the internet. Personally, I dislike being lumped in with either group by someone else, especially since I haven't publicly declared my own stance on the issue.
AntiSqueaker
Space Marshal
And I'd like to think that everyone here is mature enough for a rational discourse, even if we have disagreements.
That being said, I dislike Anna Sarkesian, although I think that calling out death threats to her is WAAAAY over the line. "Hardcore" video games are geared primarily towards men. I think something like 96% of Star Citizen backers on reddit are Male, and I believe we almost had more Transgender/Other than female responses.
I think it is a bit hypocritical to demand that a male-oriented hobby cater to a subgroup (even though MOST, if now ALL female gamers I have talked to have 0 complaint with gender relations in games today compared to the 90's or so). Imagine if I started a campaign because Cosmo magazine, or the View wasn't representing men enough, or in a positive light (like the women on the View laughing about a man getting castrated with a knife by his girlfriend).
Huegpaynis
Space Marshal
That's a bit disingenuous; there's no reason a hardcore game has to be seen as catering only to men, unless the content is designed that way. For example, take the Arma series. This is a hardcore military sim; bullets are lethal, movement impacts aiming, and flying a chopper is for the brave or the damned. There is nothing in the game's content that says "only men will enjoy this." In that same vein, Star Citizen could also be seen as a being hardcore, and again there's nothing in the content that is designed to only be entertaining to men.
Furthermore, comparing gaming as a whole to a magazine is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. There are just as many male-oriented magazines as there are female, and there are just as many asshats in men's magazines as there are in women's.
Finally, I wouldn't say the industry as a whole is catering to a subgroup of a male-oriented hobby. The gender ratios aren't a reflection of what one gender wants over another, it's a reflection of what people want; as more and more women become interested in video games, we see the ratio drift. Historically, gaming (and by extension PC's and computer science) were male-dominated because many women were discouraged from participating, either by era-related gender stereotypes, an aversion to working with the hardware and the requisite education, or any other number of reasons, valid or otherwise.
Furthermore, comparing gaming as a whole to a magazine is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. There are just as many male-oriented magazines as there are female, and there are just as many asshats in men's magazines as there are in women's.
Finally, I wouldn't say the industry as a whole is catering to a subgroup of a male-oriented hobby. The gender ratios aren't a reflection of what one gender wants over another, it's a reflection of what people want; as more and more women become interested in video games, we see the ratio drift. Historically, gaming (and by extension PC's and computer science) were male-dominated because many women were discouraged from participating, either by era-related gender stereotypes, an aversion to working with the hardware and the requisite education, or any other number of reasons, valid or otherwise.
No problems with Anita, her videos make good points while also glossing over the small amount of positively portrayed female characters. I understand why she approached it that way though.
The point of her ongoing video series is to show the general way that female characters are depicted. I don't think it's controversial to point out that most female characters are shown as weak or lacking positive character traits that aren't stereotypically feminine.
I think your comparison is quite illogical AntiSqueaker. You refer to one magazine, and one show. Video games are an entire medium. Magazines and tv shows/movies as a whole are fairly egalitarian and broad in what sort of characters they have and who they're targeted at, although there's probably still some progress that can be made in regards to LGBT characters. In opposition to that, the video games that most people would refer to as 'core' are hugely targeted at men, to the detriment of women.
We don't have to entirely remove everything that Anita mentions in her videos. The goal would be to make the industry egalitarian in this respect. At the very least there should be a more equal distribution of games that at least have some sort of good female characters in them. Some sort of video game version of the Bechdel Test.
Also, I think it's a large social problem as opposed to just the content of the games. 'Boys' are expected to play videogames while girls get made fun of. I believe this is slowly changing as video games become more and more socially acceptable. We need more women getting into the game development industry to make it seem like more of an option to girls growing up. The game industry still has a very "boy's club" feel to it which needs to change before we can see a big societal change.
As an example for ArmA 3. I don't know, have some female characters (I don't know if there are already), have women depicted in the advertising for it, and so forth. It may be possible for both genders to enjoy it, but it's certainly not marketed at both genders.
The point of her ongoing video series is to show the general way that female characters are depicted. I don't think it's controversial to point out that most female characters are shown as weak or lacking positive character traits that aren't stereotypically feminine.
I think your comparison is quite illogical AntiSqueaker. You refer to one magazine, and one show. Video games are an entire medium. Magazines and tv shows/movies as a whole are fairly egalitarian and broad in what sort of characters they have and who they're targeted at, although there's probably still some progress that can be made in regards to LGBT characters. In opposition to that, the video games that most people would refer to as 'core' are hugely targeted at men, to the detriment of women.
We don't have to entirely remove everything that Anita mentions in her videos. The goal would be to make the industry egalitarian in this respect. At the very least there should be a more equal distribution of games that at least have some sort of good female characters in them. Some sort of video game version of the Bechdel Test.
Also, I think it's a large social problem as opposed to just the content of the games. 'Boys' are expected to play videogames while girls get made fun of. I believe this is slowly changing as video games become more and more socially acceptable. We need more women getting into the game development industry to make it seem like more of an option to girls growing up. The game industry still has a very "boy's club" feel to it which needs to change before we can see a big societal change.
As an example for ArmA 3. I don't know, have some female characters (I don't know if there are already), have women depicted in the advertising for it, and so forth. It may be possible for both genders to enjoy it, but it's certainly not marketed at both genders.
Overlord
Captain
Whose stopping women from making games if they are unhappy about the content? No one. Sounds pretty illogical to me: blaming men for something women could rectify themselves. Typical. And if someone wants to build a game with LGBT characters? All the power to them! But enough is enough, let people build whatever they want and let the O-mighty dollar decide.
Your answer of "No one" is pretty incredible and shows you have no idea about the politics and attacks that are large blockades to women in game development. No one blamed men, it's more of a societal problem so I don't know what you're talking about there. Your last sentence is particularly strange. I don't think you understand that women are directed away from the videogame industry, or pressured out of it. There's plenty of stories from former developers about this. You made zero points in this post so I don't really know what you're complaining about here, besides taking the opportunity to oppose things that no one ever said. If you think women have the same opportunities, the same mentoring, the same encouragement, the same support, you're incredibly wrong.
Your ignorance is astounding and I really don't have the patience to bother writing responses that fully detail everything when there's plenty of resources out there. I'm disappointed that I have to deal with the fact that you're going to be in what I considered to be a mature gaming group. If we could ignore each other for the most part from now on, that would probably be for the best. Our world views are diametrically opposed.
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Overlord
Captain
Ok, I see where you are coming from. Clearly you are a big believer in the Nanny State and want everything handed to you on a plate instead of going out and getting it yourself; your solution is to blame everyone, in this case men, for one's inability to accomplish said goals. Oh I get it: women are barred from institutions of higher learning and are forbidden to study computer science or game development! What a bunch of hogwash.
And yes, I agree, you probably don't know what I am talking about because that would require some common sense. As for maturity, I notice you were the first one to make this issue personal by calling others illogical and ignorant > doesn't get any more mature than that. So if you want to to close your eyes, sit in your cyber corner and keep bitching about men, society or what have you, be my guest; I will be more than happy to ignore you.
This is a hot button topic and everyone has their own opinions on the matter and they are fully welcome to it. I will say to keep it civil in the sense people do not start to resort to personal attacks to each other. Everyone in the world will have a differing opinion on differing topics whether it is liked or not. Discussion is great and in my opinion I highly promote it; personal attacks however have no value beyond trying to goad into a senseless argument rather than a discussion. If you do not like a person's opinion that is fine say you disagree or whatever but if personal attacks start to flow this thread will be closed.
Remember while you may not all agree you are all the part of this great community of Test. Disagreements are expected but careful not to let it get into the toxic zone.
Remember while you may not all agree you are all the part of this great community of Test. Disagreements are expected but careful not to let it get into the toxic zone.
I'm right
the rest of you are a bunch of ignorant fuckwits, so there!
the rest of you are a bunch of ignorant fuckwits, so there!
Huegpaynis
Space Marshal
*insult aimed at your small genitals and lack of sexual prowess*
Shar Treuse
Captain
This is not an opinion.
I have met plenty of female gamers over the past 30 years or so. Few of them fit any stereotype of "girl gamers". Two of them I dated. One I met in, of all possible games, EVE Online and she was one of the more vicious pvp combat pilots (in-game and in bed). The other I nearly married, in fact if it weren't for Australian immigration biatches I would be married to her and living in Australia.
Are they still a minority? Yeah. Are they a large minority? Hell yeah. But you aren't going to find them if you act like a testosterone-powered ID10T online.
And most of my experience predates Candy Crush.
I have met plenty of female gamers over the past 30 years or so. Few of them fit any stereotype of "girl gamers". Two of them I dated. One I met in, of all possible games, EVE Online and she was one of the more vicious pvp combat pilots (in-game and in bed). The other I nearly married, in fact if it weren't for Australian immigration biatches I would be married to her and living in Australia.
Are they still a minority? Yeah. Are they a large minority? Hell yeah. But you aren't going to find them if you act like a testosterone-powered ID10T online.
And most of my experience predates Candy Crush.