Has anyone else read these CIG glassdoor reviews?

[GrumpyCat]

I'm not sure what country you're talking about, but I assure you modern initiatives are completely unnecessary and most are illegal. Gender discrimination has been illegal in the United States since 1964. All that is needed is enforcement of federal law. Private company "initiatives" most often violate anti-discrimination laws and produce discrimination, by promoting people hire by quota rather than by merit.

Coarse small talk between men is not evidence such racist, ageist, sexist, etc. initiatives are necessary, nor even morally acceptable. Additionally, there are times when those hiring have prejudices that are warranted.

I have a close friend who is a retired USAF Brigadier General. At one time he was the head of Air Force Material Command and had 80,000 people he was responsible for. He is the greatest leader I have ever met. Test pilot, Trainer of test pilots. White House Fellow. Astonishing guy.

Two years into his retirement heading up an Cybersecurity department at a large stock trading company he in exasperation complained that he is done hiring millennials. Apparently he had so many of them come for a year and leave, and contribute NOTHING for the time they were trained, that he just decided to discriminate. Who can blame him? If it takes a year to learn to do a job and before that time is up you take a lateral transfer, you have not actually contributed anything to those who are paying you. Why should any company repeatedly subject itself to that sort of fraud?

There are reasons to discriminate and course language around the water cooler is not discrimination. I have never met anyone who thinks women don't belong in the workplace nor that they're just as good as men, and I doubt ALL the stories of this. I think 9/10 they're made up bullshit. This from a guy working 51 years. I call bullshit. There is no doubt that boys create boys clubs, but that's the way life is. Deal with it. I call bullshit.

I'm just going to leave this here:

PSNS employee describes 'culture of toxic behavior' at shipyard

In a Facebook post, Brandon Hunt details numerous incidents of blatant discrimination; shipyard commander vows response.

www.kitsapsun.com

My previous workplace, where dozens of women came forward to describe their daily sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace. It was such a big deal there were constant investigations right before COVID lol, which happened to, luckily for the shipyard, sweep it all under the carpet.

In total, the shipyard has investigated 101 allegations of harassment since October, with 37 cases completed, 38 in review and 18 in the discipline phase. There were also 16 inquiries that focused on previous cases.

Deal with it. I call bullshit.

I am dealing with it, we all are, by bringing it to light to show those misinformed and blind to the issues that they exist. I find it interesting that you would call bullshit, when I tell you that I have first hand seen these issues. Am I lying to you to? Why?

 

[Talonsbane]

No not odd, just a person who understands how to not be an asshole. I wanted to say a good person ( and I am sure you are! ), but I keep getting reminded we shouldn't elevate basic human decency to women as above average, it should be the baseline lol.

But thank you for not being a shitty person.

I simply treat those that I've trained how I'd like to be treated if I was in their position. That being said, those that I treated as such that then in turn treated me poorly, well they usually missed out on several pointers that could've made them better than how they turned out. Mostly because they chose to not be paying attention.

 

[Talonsbane]

 

[Shadow Reaper]

My previous workplace, where dozens of women came forward to describe their daily sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace.

You're a little confused. We were not discussing sexual harassment. That's a separate issue. Places that indulge that kind of thing make up the 1/10 places that get complaints about discrimination. I do not object to your observation here that this is toxic behavior that needs to be punished. However, harassment in a shipyard where the average worker is lucky to have a high school education is nothing like sexual discrimination at CIG. You understand evidence of lack of diversity at CIG does not equal sexual harassment? They're different issues.

I guarantee, people will take your complaints much more seriously, if you limit them to reasonable complaints. That requires you not conflate shipyard workers with CIG employees.

If what you want to say is shipyard workers need to stop acting like douchbags, I'll go stand shoulder to shoulder with you out on the docks. Better still is to find someone to sue. This issue was settled in 1964 and the only real way to fix it is sue the pants off offenders. Get the actual participants fired by suing the companies that allow the harassment. Again, the solution is not an "initiative" that creates more discrimination. It is a lawsuit that provides compensation for real harms suffered and punitive action so it won't happen in the future.

You understand, there is a qualitative difference between a pair of guys standing at the water cooler and privately admiring the shape of a coworker, without anyone else knowing what they're doing, and cat calls of crude harassment. Private chat around the water cooler is not harassment, if it is private. You'll never change the behavior of men to not note to each other how much they enjoy a woman's figure (outside marriage--married guys doing it right won't do this), but you can stop the cat calls. Confusing these two will alienate you from support to stop harassment.

 

[GrumpyCat]

You're a little confused. We were not discussing sexual harassment. That's a separate issue. Places that indulge that kind of thing make up the 1/10 places that get complaints about discrimination. I do not object to your observation here that this is toxic behavior that needs to be punished. However, harassment in a shipyard where the average worker is lucky to have a high school education is nothing like sexual discrimination at CIG. You understand evidence of lack of diversity at CIG does not equal sexual harassment? They're different issues.

I guarantee, people will take your complaints much more seriously, if you limit them to reasonable complaints. That requires you not conflate shipyard workers with CIG employees.

If what you want to say is shipyard workers need to stop acting like douchbags, I'll go stand shoulder to shoulder with you out on the docks.

If you go a bit further into the article...

The post has sent shock waves through the shipyard, a male-dominated workforce but with a management staff even more skewed. About 81 percent of its employees are men; in management, it’s more than 88 percent.

 

[Radegast74]

I don't personally think you can learn from such generalizations without looking afterward for specific examples.

Agreed. In my line of work, we have a saying, "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'"

LOL, esp. after listening to the video by @vahadar , where the person (a former employee) is talking about introducing metrics to the animations...he is talking about CR saying, "yeah, whatever, go to town" and then half the GlassDoor reviews (if they are genuine) talking about him being a micromanager...wtf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

Again, talking to former employees may be like asking an ex-spouse about their former husband/wife.

And who knows, maybe implementing stricter management might actually be a good thing? Like meeting deadlines? Some of the criticisms may just reflect the company maturing, and people who were used to the old days of "seat of the pants" design may have difficulties adjusting to a new way of doing things...

 

[Shadow Reaper]

GC, as I said, I think you have a valid complaint if the behavior is identifiably harassment. Citing figures about employment percentages means nothing. Case in point:

Sweden has made more effort toward sexual equality than any other nation. One remarkable result is that the more freedom people have to choose their professions unhindered, the more disparity develops between the sexes. The vast majority of nurses in Sweden are female and the vast majority of engineers are male. This is because gender is NOT a social construct. Mens and women's brains are actually wired differently and women tend statistically to care more about people than things, while men tend to care more about things than people. People who get excited by things become engineers and people who care about people become nurses.

It does not help to confuse these issues with other issues. If there is harassment going on, relating this to cases that do not include harassment like CIG employee sex percentages only makes your case weak and overreaching. Focus on the real harm and the real solution. If there is harassment at the shipyard, sue the shipyard. That's been available for 57 years. No need to waste time with "initiatives".

Psychology of personality has consistently found for over thirty years that the sexes are very different. If you believe the opposite and mix that prejudice into your thinking on harassment, you will make bad decisions about how to cope with harassment. The proper response to harassment is sue the bastards and there are lots of attorney's offices that will take your case with no money out of your pocket. Such cases are worth many millions in punitive awards alone. If you can document say, 50 cases of harassment that the leadership at the shipyard ignored, you can probably win a $100 million award and all the people responsible will indeed get fired by the shareholders.

 

[vahadar]

With that attitude there should be no women philosophers. Western Civilization is a meritocracy. If you're not okay with that, go live somewhere else. We get and keep our jobs because we are good at them, not because we were born a specific race, sex, or have a handicap. We perform or we move on. That's the way Western Civilization is. That's what meritocracies are. Hiring quotas are immoral and in many instances, illegal.

Unfortunatly, what @GrumpyCat is mentionning has been necessary for mentality to evolve.

Writing as you do and @Talonsbane do is very naive thinking that sexism in brain selection does not exist anymore and is a thing of the past. Sexism do exist, it is a fact, and observable everyday, even in our "great western civilization".

Not only when you are graduated and are looking for work, but this start much sooner.
At home when you are told what you can do or not as studies, because this does not fit for a girl.
When you study because lets be honest, most school/university teachers in their 40-70's, and the older they are, the more "old fashioned" they are and male teachers tend to be the majority the older the teacher population is.
When you apply for a job, because lets be honest again male managers are usually in their 40-70's, and the older they are, the more "old fashioned" they are.
And if you have never observed that, then you live in a man's world I guess :)

The 1974 Act GrumpyCat mentionned is like yesterday for those in top managing or directing position, they were in their 20's then, in a Western world full of patriarchism.

I would not be surprised to learn 97/100 workers graduating with the proper degrees are men. Whatever the figure is, once suspects the hiring ought to be similar.

No need to comment here...

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I am familiar that half of graphic artists are women. I have myself however, never witnessed the kind of sexism people often claim. Could be because i grew up in NJ, and sexism was out of style here in the 50's. You understand, there were a lot of people who found sexism wrong before the law was created in 1964. I did not grow up with racism either, though ageism seems to linger on somehow. I think that may be the result of romantic notions of marriage, etc.

Note that I did not say there are no cases of sexual discrimination. I said I think only about 1/10 of reports of them are what they claim, since I have never seen it and I have heard of it many, many times.

And just to say again, what we have here is a case of % hire being confused with discrimination and even harassment, and these are not the same issue. You cannot presume % hire numbers are somehow an example of discrimination without looking at the actual qualifications of the applicants, and we are not suited to judge things we know nothing about.

The law was changed in 1964. It's more than half century old. There are very few people alive today in the US that didn't grow up with it. You'd need to be way past retirement age to not grow up with it. I don't think anyone treats it as a recent occurrence.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Focus on the real harm and the real solution. If there is harassment at the shipyard, sue the shipyard. That's been available for 57 years. No need to waste time with "initiatives".

So I will openly admit I am not extremely well versed in these topics and am only speaking from first hand accounts and from what my friends themselves have experienced. That said I will answer this with the explanation of my view of the problems with it:

1. You said it yourself, there are laws around this, why does the victim need to go out and sue? Why shouldn't the company be doing their best to adhere to the anti-discrimination laws, root out issues, and be inclusive?

2. I can tell you women in any industry do not make it long if they sue. You get one shot at that, and then afterwords it shows up on any decent background check and makes you a "liability", regardless how in the right you were. I would never sue, it would destroy my career, and I worked hard for it haha.

3. We always make it seem like suing a company is a trivial thing, but its really an all out slugfest against an army of lawyers over years where you are draining your money, time, and resources.

 

[Talonsbane]

Writing as you do and @Talonsbane do is very naive thinking that sexism in brain selection does not exist anymore and is a thing of the past. Sexism do exist, it is a fact, and observable everyday, even in our "great western civilization".

I never said that it doesn't exist, just that I personally do my best to look at a person as an individual as each of us has our own experiences that help make up part of who we are & how we do things. That I do my best to treat others how I would like to be treated, even though I sadly fail at that at times. I understand that in general, there are clear differences, but there are also exceptions to generalized rules that also have merit based on what they bring to the table. That's why I posted the clip from the movie Men in Black. I'm not knocking anybody, just pointing out that I wish that in the various fields of technology, people in positions of power & hiring would care more for the diversity of the mind in ways to achieve goals than the legally enforced race, gender, etc quotas. This is part of why I feel the initial process of getting hired at a place like this should be a blind test of capabilities that then gets attached to the resume to help sort out those who have the ability vs those that don't before moving on the the interviewing process to see if their personalities would work well in the professional environment or if they would be a clear hindrance that would only hamper & disrupt the process. Call me naive if you want, I'm just being myself & looking to help end the biases as best as I can as an individual.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

So I will openly admit I am not extremely well versed in these topics and am only speaking from first hand accounts and from what my friends themselves have experienced. That said I will answer this with the explanation of my view of the problems with it:

1. You said it yourself, there are laws around this, why does the victim need to go out and sue? Why shouldn't the company be doing their best to adhere to the anti-discrimination laws, root out issues, and be inclusive?

Because this isn't heaven. Life is not fair. People do shitty things. Humanity is never going to produce an utopian society because if it did, it would ruin it. Life is tragic. People are flawed. We use laws to keep people in line enough to make civilization happen. Wondering why people aren't as perfect as you is a childish approach to life, especially suited to this generation that was told they were always right about evrything from age six and got participation trophies. Realize this: the tragic view of life, that people are flawed and need restraints for their most base desires, is a more than 3,600 year old observation that has NEVER had a single counterfactual. Life is tragic. Plan for this.

2. I can tell you women in any industry do not make it long if they sue. You get one shot at that, and then afterwords it shows up on any decent background check and makes you a "liability", regardless how in the right you were. I would never sue, it would destroy my career, and I worked hard for it haha.

3. We always make it seem like suing a company is a trivial thing, but its really an all out slugfest against an army of lawyers over years where you are draining your money, time, and resources.

That may be true. Life isn't fair. This is not a game with rules. Some things we can fix and some things we cannot. One thing for sure is that we can never fix an unfair inequality with another one. That's a completely broken notion. What we can do is sue people out of positions of power so they are no longer able to harm others the way they harmed us.

If you win a $100M lawsuit, you'll never have to work again. Consider that adequate compensation for losing your career to support others. The only moral, right and just thing to do is sue the bastards. Anything else is childish whining and complaining. We get enough of that.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Quick interesting statistical note:

Over 1.1 million women received a bachelor's degree in the 2018-19 academic year compared to fewer than 860,000 men; put differently, about 74 men received a bachelor's degree for every 100 women. Even fewer men graduate with an associate or master's degree, relative to women.

 

[Harkonan]

Do people join CIG and SERIOUSLY believe their input is going to outweigh the opinion of Chris Roberts?

This is his baby ... Ride or Die.
That's been obvious from the very beginning.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

At home when you are told what you can do or not as studies, because this does not fit for a girl.

Be honest. Do you know anyone who has ever had this happen? I know one person. He's a guy in his late 60's, white anglo-saxon protestant, body builder whose parents broke his heart by announcing he isn't smart enough to do many different kinds of things. He was a gym owner at age 22. Not a smart guy. Probably has an IQ of about 70. He is however wise, and hard working, and one of the most thoroughly good men I know, and the rewards of these things are a life well lived, a wonderful family, etc.

Thank God his parents straightened him out that he was never going to be a brain surgeon.

This generation needs to stop pretending they inherited problems they didn't, start acting like adults, and focusing on the problems they did inherit. There are plenty of real problems, and telling women they can't be President is not one of them. You fuckers are about to vote us into so much debt that no one will be able to pay even the interest and the entire economy will collapse under triple digit inflation. Stop pretending you are solving problems we solved half century ago, and start looking at the real challenges to your generation.

 

[GrumpyCat]

and telling women they can't be President is not one of them

Sorry, was this a typo? Do you mean that people didn't vote for Hillary, or do you mean that they literally CANT be president?

 

[Scape]

....feel like I walked in on my parents arguing.....I'm going back to my room

 

[GrumpyCat]

....feel like I walked in on my parents arguing.....I'm going back to my room

Hey.. I put in the "Drama" section haha!

 

[Radegast74]

Just a quick note...as many have pointed out, there is a difference between "hiring discrimination" and then sexism/discrimination at the workplace. In fact, one could have a perfectly fine hiring experience, and then land in a cruddy work section where the boss and/or co-workers are complete ass-hats.

Having said that, I'm not sure that reading GlassDoor reviews are going to help us figure out and solve all of CIGs problems.

I will note that they have a studio in California, and California has some of the strongest laws/protections for hiring and workplace discrimination. Any problems have various remedies, which technically have to be exhausted before one would have to sue; for a lot of reasons that is a pretty arduous process that most people don't want to go through. Having seen a lot of stuff in my position, it is far easier to prove retaliation; if you ever read any of that stuff you will wish that you hadn't.

 

[Talonsbane]

Do you mean that people didn't vote for Hillary, or do you mean that they literally CANT be president?

I didn't vote for Hillary Clinton, not because she's a woman, but because I don't like a lot of what she's stood for, backed, worked towards in regards of the government & ultimately that I didn't feel that she would benefit America as the President. I also didn't vote for her husband, for the same reasons. The person that I wanted to run for US President back in 2008 (Colin Powell), was supposedly offered the chance to be VP by McCain, but declined the offer. So that year's election was for me a choice between a pair of bad options.