help being IP trolled on YouTube

[DirectorGunner]

I can't imagine anyone winning a suit against WMG after taking their music without paying and using it to earn money. The fact you are confused enough to think you are in the right makes me wonder what is with that, and whether you will draw attention to any other ill-gotten gains. Maybe a step back to reevaluate is called for.

It's funny how you talked down to people in general in your first post and then started to talk down to me here, when you've made an assumption in the first place regarding earning income for myself. Speak for yourself when it comes to character, not others, and don't make assumptions, ask questions. What you've been doing, among a few other fallacies, is called an ad hominem fallacy in assuming the state of mind and character of others and then using that assumption to attack a person's character. I'd dig into your comments more with the tenacity of a hellfire cerberus but, you're not some guy accusing us of corporate efficiency conspiracy, you're another TESTie... So maybe behave like one? have a drink, relax, don't be "that guy".

 

[DirectorGunner]

Look at the traffic stats chart, that is very likely tailing off to almost nothing at this point.

The video does very well all year long, views have not dropped substantially since uploading. The spike in the beginning was due to a popular blog mentioning the video.

The views have plateaued, but the video is not at the end of it's life cycle for viewership. However... it may be when this is all said and done.

 

[Thalstan]

Not a lawyer. That said, I gave your video a quick look.

Red flags (to me)
Song seems to be overlayed on to the video. It didn't seem like it was playing in the background, because the sound did not change as the camera/microphone was moving and there was no wind/external noise as there was during some of the speaking parts. I agree it was probably the right call as changing sound levels and background really annoy people and would have seriously damaged the quality of the video, but with it being overlayed, it probably strengthens their claim. (it wasn't just background music, it was added in after the fact)

Advertisement at the end: This is probably the biggest issue. Again, it seems like you are advertising a dance studio. There is no "Special thanks to" with the dance studio. Just the studio name, logo, and contact information. Perception is reality. If a reasonable person could say that at least part of it was advertising, even if it wasn't, they can probably get you.

It was a great proposal. The video was shot well. The routine was great. I am not sure if you can get any kind of fair use, but see if you can get a license to use after the fact (aka, talk to them, apologize, explain things and ask if you can buy the rights use the song for use in that one video..especially if you change the end to a special thanks (removing logo, etc) to the dance studio and promise to not monetize the video yourself. You might even want to bring your fiance/wife

I wish you the best of luck with it. If nothing else, keep the video and you will have something great to show to family and friends down the road when you hit your 25th and 50th anniversary.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

What you've been doing, among a few other fallacies, is called an ad hominem fallacy in assuming the state of mind and character of others. . .

I haven't done anything like that. What I have done is note you have been told now several times, that since you took an intellectual property that does not belong to you, and tried to make money with it, you have no legal recourse such as you asked about. I did not call you any names, or cast judgements, but rather called you to reevaluate what you are doing.

Ad hominem fallacies are only those when they replace a logical argument to a specific conclusion, meaning I would have to have a reason to make an argument with you, and I do not. You asked for advice. My advise is, take the advise all through his thread and stop trying to figure out how to use someone else's IP for your own gain.

I have been through this many times over the years. The last time was a guy I know tried to make money by selling advertisement with pictures of girls loaded into cell phones. He grabbed the girlie pics off the web. I told the guy a dozen times, as soon as money starts to change hands, the real owners of the pics will step forward and take it. This is apparently just what has happened to you. You cannot make money with someone else's IP. It really is that simple.

 

[Han Burgundy]

I haven't done anything like that. What I have done is note you have been told now several times, that since you took an intellectual property that does not belong to you, and tried to make money with it, you have no legal recourse such as you asked about. I did not call you any names, or cast judgements, but rather called you to reevaluate what you are doing.

Ad hominem fallacies are only those when they replace a logical argument to a specific conclusion, meaning I would have to have a reason to make an argument with you, and I do not. You asked for advice. My advise is, take the advise all through his thread and stop trying to figure out how to use someone else's IP for your own gain.

I believe what @DirectorGunner is trying to eloquently state here is; Sometimes you have a tendency to be a bit of a know-it-all dickhole, and many of us in this laid back Org find that rather annoying. You have just illustrated his point by trying to "school" him on Ad homi-whatzits. Nobody reads what you write and goes "Gee, that guy is so cool and knowledgeable. I wish I was like him!" They go; "Ugh. This fuckin guy again..." So I'd suggest that YOU reevaluate how you converse with your fellow Orgmates. At this rate, you are not on track to be voted Prom Queen....

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Gee thanks for sharing. Just bear in mind that the reason I may sound like I know what I am talking about, is that I do know what I am talking about.

I have dealt with IPs for more than 20 years. My company has several new patents that will be pending in the next few months. My twin brother is an IP lawyer and I was a teaching critical thinking (the stuff about ad hominems) at University when the kid here was a gleam in his daddy's eye. So when I weigh in on a subject, it may sound like I know what I am talking about, pretty much because I do. When I don't I am quiet and learn from others, which is most of the time.

He asked and got a patient answer, so why is this still an issue? You cannot make money with someone else's IP. End of story. I'm sorry if that does not sit well, but there isn't going to be a different answer that he likes more, that is somehow going to change the facts of life.

 

[BUTUZ]

I think we all need to have a Test hug best hug here!!!

 

[Han Burgundy]

Gee thanks for sharing. Just bear in mind that the reason I may sound like I know what I am talking about, is that I do know what I am talking about.

I have dealt with IPs for more than 20 years. My company has several new patents that will be pending in the next few months. My twin brother is an IP lawyer and I was a teaching critical thinking (the stuff about ad hominems) at University when the kid here was a gleam in his daddy's eye. So when I weigh in on a subject, it may sound like I know what I am talking about, pretty much because I do. When I don't I am quiet and learn from others, which is most of the time.

He asked and got a patient answer, so why is this still an issue? You cannot make money with someone else's IP. End of story. I'm sorry if that does not sit well, but there isn't going to be a different answer that he likes more, that is somehow going to change the facts of life.

The issue I have with you is not seated solely in this thread. My issue is with the trend of Shadow Reaper. It seems like EVERY time you clack at that keyboard, it is done from up on high for the consumption of the ignorant masses beneath you. So either you are saying here that you are an expert in every single thing you have spoken about on the forums (which your tone would suggest) OR you're just full of shit and love to be "right". I'm not really interested in being super politically correct here, so I'd lean to door #2 in your case. :kiss::kiss:

 

[Xian-Luc Picard]

I think we all need to have a Test hug best hug here!!!

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Don't worry. I forgive Hans his little episodes. Fear not, I have lots of friends who don't feel his way so I am not upset, and hey, there is something going around--maybe the seasonal change, maybe the pollen in the air--that is making lots of people act like dicks. (Doesn't really matter if you pick me or Hans for that role, does it?) Adequate testament that human civilization requires beer to survive.

I'll drink to that. ::Hick. . .::

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I think we all need to have a Test hug best hug here!!!

I thought I would make a joke about how we could use this pic for TEST recruitment by replacing the graphic on the tee, and the irony of putting the idea in this thread would tickle some fancies, but then I checked in TinEye and found there are almost 10 versions of this pic, each with the graphic replaced with something else. So hey, this is an example of what not to do. The guy who took this pic owns it unless he transferred the pic's copyright to someone else, and no matter who does what with it, if money exchanges hands, that money can be taken by the owner of the IP.

The test is more complex than the issue. The issue is, no one cares what you pilfer until money exchanges hands. As soon as someone gets paid, the IP owner is likely to intrude and take everything gotten through dubious means. In many cases courts in the US will award huge punitive awards so the the owner actually gets far more than the person made who stole their IP. And just to note, if you are doing this kind of theft and have not protected yourself legally by use of an LLC or other corporate instrument, the person who's IP you stole could easily be awarded your ENTIRE estate. Happens every day.

So be careful.

 

[Han Burgundy]

Don't worry. I forgive Hans his little episodes. Fear not, I have lots of friends who don't feel his way so I am not upset, and hey, there is something going around--maybe the seasonal change, maybe the pollen in the air--that is making lots of people act like dicks. (Doesn't really matter if you pick me or Hans for that role, does it?) Adequate testament that human civilization requires beer to survive.

I'll drink to that. ::Hick. . .::

There he goes again, talking down from his ivory tower. And it's Han, not Hans. Does it look like I have a German flag next to my avatar? (Learn to read if you want to keep flaunting that edumucation of yours...) I spit on your smug forgiveness and I fart in your general direction. Flame wars on forums are stupid and accomplish nothing, so I will leave you with this; I don't like you. Simple as that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't like the way you talk, I don't like the way you carry yourself, and I certainly don't like the air of hostility that you always bring with you into these threads. Out of 10,000 TESTies, it is you alone that rubs me the wrong way; and I am not alone in my opinion of you, Shadowrea. I imagine that you are the kind of person that would fart in an elevator and rejoice at their own stench, then tweet about it to tell the world how great you are. If I ever see you in the Verse, I will shoot you directly in the face. Good day, sir.

 

[DirectorGunner]

@Shadow Reaper Ever heard the saying, if you don't have something nice to say...

"I'm this or I'm that" apart from the following is irrelevant, you're not an attorney right? You're not a lawyer right? Do you have a jurisprudence degree at least? If you answered yes to any of those questions then maybe I would not take offense to the snood-i-ness (I probably still would but at least I would give more weight to it).

RESPECT is a two way street, look even Montoya put down a solid opinion(s) and I took no offense because it was done with respect. Even if he doesn't respect me, he at least showed some class. This is not some reddit forum with random users who you won't likely collaborate with.. this is an ORG, a tribe/clan/gaming group... where we'll likely be working together to protect our time investments in game. It's NOT wise to come off to fellow ORG mates as a dick... it #1 alienates potential help #2 lowers morale

On another note,
It's not my proposal, and just about all parts in the video are there from the request of the groom who hired me to shoot it. Didn't even know this particular song was going to play in the background until we started rolling IIRC.

I had no idea the video would get this many views.. I thought a few hundred thousand views would be nice. For me, my favorite part is the sun flare shot as Vartan walks down the isle of people to propose... it gave me chills as I was editing.

edit:

I thought I would make a joke about how we could use this pic for TEST recruitment by replacing the graphic on the tee, and the irony of putting the idea in this thread would tickle some fancies, but then I checked in TinEye and found there are almost 10 versions of this pic, each with the graphic replaced with something else. So hey, this is an example of what not to do. The guy who took this pic owns it unless he transferred the pic's copyright to someone else, and no matter who does what with it, if money exchanges hands, that money can be taken by the owner of the IP.

The test is more complex than the issue. The issue is, no one cares what you pilfer until money exchanges hands. As soon as someone gets paid, the IP owner is likely to intrude and take everything gotten through dubious means. In many cases courts in the US will award huge punitive awards so the the owner actually gets far more than the person made who stole their IP. And just to note, if you are doing this kind of theft and have not protected yourself legally by use of an LLC or other corporate instrument, the person who's IP you stole could easily be awarded your ENTIRE estate. Happens every day.

So be careful.

"you are doing this kind of theft "
I think you owe an apology

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I read the first sentence of both the above, and that is all I am going to read. I do not pander to the intemperate. I suggest you both refamiliarize yourselves with the rules here in the forum. Especially you, Han. You came to this thread looking for a fight, and that is not what TEST is all about.

 

[SneakyPete]

What fearless leader said.No money to the attorneys.

WMG can play the long game and tie it up for years. They represent just one slice of the pie I believe Bruno is also BMI . I can check yes he is CAE/IPI # 583145444 BMI has only a 13 percent interest in the song . If anyone else on here is BMI registered could you cross check my search I ran the query off of his name and the album It may be listed under another composer as well.

WMG may only be one set of suits you would face in court. Everyone else with an interest in the song would be notified by WMG . Then you have death by a thousand legal briefs.

In summation
Fearless leader has good advice and tasty meat. Archive your video

 

[Han Burgundy]

I read the first sentence of both the above, and that is all I am going to read. I do not pander to the intemperate. I suggest you both refamiliarize yourselves with the rules here in the forum. Especially you, Han. You came to this thread looking for a fight, and that is not what TEST is all about.

Nah, not looking for a fight. Just finally got too annoyed with you to hold my tongue any longer. I should send you my bill for my optometrist; Because every time I read one of your posts, my eyes roll so hard that my retinas are at risk of detaching. What you just said is literally the equivalent of shoving your fingers into your ears and yelling "LALALALALLALALALA I CANT HEAR YOUU!" The second someone turns your shit around on you, you crumble and backpedal with the speed and expertise of Deion Sanders. You can't be an asshat to everyone, then try to hide behind forum rules when someone gets fed up with your professional-grade douchery. That being said, your forum handle IS a super kick-ass name. See? If you didn't read this far, you wouldn't have seen my compliment. :grin:

 

[DirectorGunner]

I'll add just saying that the law is going to catch up with societal changes. This includes rights concerning earned persistent digital items in game. There was a case in another country recently (IIRC Sweden.. maybe.. will google real quick and link at end) that a kid got his digital weapon stolen and in an unprecedented ruling, the kid was awarded damages.

AH! it was a Dutch court:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/9053870/Online-game-theft-earns-real-world-conviction.html
Can't find atm the original article about it.

Point is, staying rigid or pretentious doesn't help anyone, because legal systems for societies do evolve over time, just as society evolves.

EDIT:
Oh, and FYI... I'm leaning toward removing the appeal too.

 

[DirectorGunner]

I read the first sentence of both the above, and that is all I am going to read. I do not pander to the intemperate. I suggest you both refamiliarize yourselves with the rules here in the forum. Especially you, Han. You came to this thread looking for a fight, and that is not what TEST is all about.

So... it reads like what you're saying is...

... that you're not the embodiment of what TEST is? lol
Who let you in here?!

#SPAI

 

[SneakyPete]

Here is an example of what I was referring too. 12 years of legal headache over 2 seconds of sample.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121220/19334921459/kraftwerks-12-year-lawsuit-over-2-second-sample-comes-to-bizarre-end.shtml

Hell I remember when John Fogerty was sued for sounding like himself.

Money makes these PRO's(Performing Rights Organizations) more deadly to a career ,than a thousand mother in laws that have been grafted to the bodies of Great Whites.

If I can find some current release forms I would be happy to send them to you. They save money. I will try to get ahold of my contract agent Charlie Felder at BMI this week and ask about the one time per use fee for public performance aka Cover bands. It won't help in this case but in the future it will be a saver as WMG smells blood.

 

[DirectorGunner]

@SneakyPete
Hey thanks! that's really helpful info
It's probably too late to get that for this video I guess? even after withdrawing the appeal.
By release forms do you mean appearance or music related? I have lots of variations of appearance release forms, I used to have a small photography studio a long while ago.