Idris Compliment

[Richard Bong]

I did the math in the first post above. The Idris min crew is 28, and max crew is 81. Given that, my guess is crew for carried ships has to max at 53. I recommended 38. That’s all pretty fast and loose but reasonable, I think.

Yes, absolutely everyone needs a bed. Odds are decent though, at least with medium sized ships; that you’ll be able to install life support significantly past your number of bunks. We’ll see what is the trade off there. Odds are good there will be significant demands on your power supply. It will probably be hard to install huge life support on stealth ships.

I recently saw walkthrough vids of the A1 and C1 that had removable battery, gravity and life support component slots. The reviewer treated it as a done deal that all SC ships are going to include these new features. BTW so I’m on the record, placing the cargo hold so you have to walk through it to get to the components was a bad choice. The components are aft of the cargo hold, so all the cargo needs to transit the component space. Bad design, IMHO.

Everything I've seen says crew of 8 to 28. The bunk room, which is the same size as one of the Javelin's crew quarters, holds around 24. Given recent trends of starships, reducing crews, 28 is likely correct.
28 probably doesn't include the small marine complement. But 80 definitely seems way high.

 

[Bambooza]

I think you guys are over estimating the critical factor that will impact any large scale event. Organizing groups of people let alone gamers is fucking hard.

So as much as it's fun to say 20 furys off an Idris the truth is with the logistic ships required and everyone having their own personal ships and perferd combat type it's going to be far more likely to get a group of 5 to 10 players working together towards a simi common goal. So given the role requirements of the Idris and fleet logistics you'll be lucky to field a Squadron of 5 players which means there is lots of spare space for backup ships which will be required.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Well, CIG has been clear the crew compliment for the Polaris is 11-27, and for the Idris is 28-81. The Polaris does include 12 bunks for marines which could be assigned instead to spotter pilots. These numbers aren’t new.

And yes I totally agree, I’m sure we’re going to find that the first true test of a Captain of these vessels is going to be their ability to gather and engage over the long term. Keeping players happy is far harder than getting them to sign up for something. The reason I usually put the Polaris crew number about 40 is I expect to add quite a few spotting craft, and I expect CIG will allow us to do “hot cotton swaps” where more than one person is assigned a bunk. No word on CIG’s position on this. We don’t even know if NPCs require bunks.

 

[AccidentProne8]

We don’t even know if NPCs require bunks.

Now I'm hoping bunkless NPCs get an insanity meter.

"Your crew hasn't slept for 24 hours. They think there's an intruder on the ship. Somebody has proposed mutiny for the first time... Jokingly?"

 

[Richard Bong]

I think you guys are over estimating the critical factor that will impact any large scale event. Organizing groups of people let alone gamers is fucking hard.

So as much as it's fun to say 20 furys off an Idris the truth is with the logistic ships required and everyone having their own personal ships and perferd combat type it's going to be far more likely to get a group of 5 to 10 players working together towards a simi common goal. So given the role requirements of the Idris and fleet logistics you'll be lucky to field a Squadron of 5 players which means there is lots of spare space for backup ships which will be required.

True. Which is why I only have one ship with a crew size larger than 3, a Retaliator.

 

[Richard Bong]

Well, CIG has been clear the crew compliment for the Polaris is 11-27, and for the Idris is 28-81. The Polaris does include 12 bunks for marines which could be assigned instead to spotter pilots. These numbers aren’t new.

And yes I totally agree, I’m sure we’re going to find that the first true test of a Captain of these vessels is going to be their ability to gather and engage over the long term. Keeping players happy is far harder than getting them to sign up for something. The reason I usually put the Polaris crew number about 40 is I expect to add quite a few spotting craft, and I expect CIG will allow us to do “hot cotton swaps” where more than one person is assigned a bunk. No word on CIG’s position on this. We don’t even know if NPCs require bunks.

The Polaris has, according to the brochure and pictures 6 bunks and 2 single berths and isn't supposed to be hot bunking. That gives you a full complement of 14. CIG lists the crew as 6-17.

CIG has been quite clear the Idris is 8-28, and it has, in the neighborhood of two dozen beds.

The Javelin has roughly two dozen bunk beds and some singles. According to the tour, no hot bunking but is listed as the ship with a crew of 12-80.

Not sure where you got 80 on the Idris.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

That’s certainly a far cry from what it was. They must have changed it when they did the last rework and pulled the holodisplay from the bridge. (Still pisses me off.)

So what used to be the required crew was 5 bridge officers, 6 turret gunners, 1 torpedo officer, 1 engineer, 1 hanger operator and 12 marines. It never added up to the 27 they published, but was close. One supposed their 11 number (they originally said 11-27) was bridge and turret gunners only. Who are they suggesting we can do without? That’s not even enough to man the bridge and turrets. The advanced damage control does not work without an engineer. The hanger will be far less useful without the aid of the tractor to park ships. Did they just remove the torpedo person entirely? Actually I’d be for that last. Should be automated.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

You can have crew stay in their ships long term only if it includes a bed, head and galley, and really for immersion and play experience, you want your crew to be able to gather together. IMHO, one of the reasons flying a Polaris is a significant step up from a Lib is the pool table. I don’t think you’re going to have trouble as a Captain, convincing your crew to come hang out on a ship with a pool table. The Lib is going to prove more challenging, but if players see it as a stepping stone to a bigger, better ship; they’ll likely be okay with it.

I think the Lib is going to be easier to find success with. 3 Eclipse are going to find most targets easier and safer than the Polaris. There’s far less chance of losing the base ship and Eclipse are extremely hard to defend against. The Polaris could get too close, take hits from their target and go poof in seconds. I’m pretty sure that’s what CIG intends if it gets caught by the Void Bombers. The Idris should offer the best of both worlds—better play experience aboard a nicer ship, and better hunting with a more potent complement of carried ships.

As to these numbers Richard is noting, they do change some things. I’m not sure I can agree with the changes. I get what he’s saying, but the Polaris was originally designed for 27 players and it can’t function optimally with many less. Especially if you plan to fly spotters, you can’t manage this ship with a dozen players. So I dunno what to say. We need to wait and see.

IMHO, it is not a good use of the crew’s time to “hunt” for opponents like Vanduul unless CIG has them always turn up, which is not realistic. Rather, I would employ spotters to scout out Vanduul and light them up with their radar, so the Polaris has a clean shot from 20-30 kms. This requires more crew—most of the difference we’re talking about. If CIG won’t allow you to put an extra ten pilots on the Polaris and Idris, they’re gonna get a lot of fucking complaints about realism and failure to deliver what they’ve promised. Cap ships normally have hundreds or thousands of people on them. 8 is not enough.

Chris was absolutely clear a decade ago that captaining a capital ship was not an experience for the average player. It is an experience for teams and for leaders. Placing cap ships in the hands of a single player, or even half dozen players, is not part of the game design.

If petro-dollar pantywastes can purchase pay to win Javelins and walk all over every other player, the game is doomed. The assurance people can’t simply drop cash and kill everyone around them is that you need to be a charismatic leader who is actually leading, to Captain a cap ship.

Note there is some danger of this original design criteria being lost. We see it with Legacy Armor. Notions like legacy armor that grants special advantages to players who work hard, and skills like running that improve when a player uses them, are both at war with the notion of the skillless game we were sold. When you make a game skill based you firmly place it in the hands of twelve year-olds and others with no adult responsibilities: pajama boys playing fifteen hours a day while living in momma’s basement will come and dominate the game. That is not the vision Chris sold us.

 

[Richard Bong]

That’s certainly a far cry from what it was. They must have changed it when they did the last rework and pulled the holodisplay from the bridge. (Still pisses me off.)

So what used to be the required crew was 5 bridge officers, 6 turret gunners, 1 torpedo officer, 1 engineer, 1 hanger operator and 12 marines. It never added up to the 27 they published, but was close. One supposed their 11 number (they originally said 11-27) was bridge and turret gunners only. Who are they suggesting we can do without? That’s not even enough to man the bridge and turrets. The advanced damage control does not work without an engineer. The hanger will be far less useful without the aid of the tractor to park ships. Did they just remove the torpedo person entirely? Actually I’d be for that last. Should be automated.

Minimum Crew mans half the guns plus essential stations.

 

[Richard Bong]

You can have crew stay in their ships long term only if it includes a bed, head and galley, and really for immersion and play experience, you want your crew to be able to gather together. IMHO, one of the reasons flying a Polaris is a significant step up from a Lib is the pool table. I don’t think you’re going to have trouble as a Captain, convincing your crew to come hang out on a ship with a pool table. The Lib is going to prove more challenging, but if players see it as a stepping stone to a bigger, better ship; they’ll likely be okay with it.

I think the Lib is going to be easier to find success with. 3 Eclipse are going to find most targets easier and safer than the Polaris. There’s far less chance of losing the base ship and Eclipse are extremely hard to defend against. The Polaris could get too close, take hits from their target and go poof in seconds. I’m pretty sure that’s what CIG intends if it gets caught by the Void Bombers. The Idris should offer the best of both worlds—better play experience aboard a nicer ship, and better hunting with a more potent complement of carried ships.

As to these numbers Richard is noting, they do change some things. I’m not sure I can agree with the changes. I get what he’s saying, but the Polaris was originally designed for 27 players and it can’t function optimally with many less. Especially if you plan to fly spotters, you can’t manage this ship with a dozen players. So I dunno what to say. We need to wait and see.

IMHO, it is not a good use of the crew’s time to “hunt” for opponents like Vanduul unless CIG has them always turn up, which is not realistic. Rather, I would employ spotters to scout out Vanduul and light them up with their radar, so the Polaris has a clean shot from 20-30 kms. This requires more crew—most of the difference we’re talking about. If CIG won’t allow you to put an extra ten pilots on the Polaris and Idris, they’re gonna get a lot of fucking complaints about realism and failure to deliver what they’ve promised. Cap ships normally have hundreds or thousands of people on them. 8 is not enough.

Chris was absolutely clear a decade ago that captaining a capital ship was not an experience for the average player. It is an experience for teams and for leaders. Placing cap ships in the hands of a single player, or even half dozen players, is not part of the game design.

If petro-dollar pantywastes can purchase pay to win Javelins and walk all over every other player, the game is doomed. The assurance people can’t simply drop cash and kill everyone around them is that you need to be a charismatic leader who is actually leading, to Captain a cap ship.

Note there is some danger of this original design criteria being lost. We see it with Legacy Armor. Notions like legacy armor that grants special advantages to players who work hard, and skills like running that improve when a player uses them, are both at war with the notion of the skillless game we were sold. When you make a game skill based you firmly place it in the hands of twelve year-olds and others with no adult responsibilities: pajama boys playing fifteen hours a day while living in momma’s basement will come and dominate the game. That is not the vision Chris sold us.

The Liberator has a max crew of 2. The front pad is XXS so an Eclipse, which is on the large size for an XS pad is unlikely to fit, that means only 2 Eclipses. The Liberator is not a combat craft, it is a hauler. While you can launch in combat scenarios that is not ideal use. If you can squeeze 3 Eclipses into the two pads on top, that isn't going to really allow for a combat launch, and won't give you room to reload the torps.

I've never seen anything that says 20+ for a Polaris. And that includes the original sales page.

The idea of hundreds of thousands on a capital ship seems a bit much.
By way of example:
The USS Gerald Ford has a crew of around 4500, (The Nimitz has about 1100 more.) The IJN Yamato had a crew of around 3200 and the Iowa Class made due with 2800.
The Arleigh Burke (which is a large Destroyer) has a crew of 323.
A couple thousand on a large Cap Ship, maybe, hundreds or even tens of thousands, not likely.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Well, I didn’t say “hundreds of thousands” I said “hundreds or thousands”. And yeah, a frigate or destroyer has hundreds. A carrier has thousands. 81 does not seem like too many for the Idris. For years the original Polaris docs said 11-27 with 12 marines as optional.

As to the Lib, we’ll see when the time comes. If it sits it fits and certainly, 3 Eclipse will fit. I posted the graphic of this when the Lib was first released. Using the viewer online it is apparent 3 Eclipse will fit outside and a dozen Arrows will fit inside. (Actually more, but 12 leaves room for other activities on the deck, as well as some other craft.). 5 MIS flying in support will supply an additional 15 bunks and if CIG allows more than 1 per bed, 3 MIS is optimal. The MIS do not need to land on the deck. They can dock with the collar to transfer PCs.

CIG can certainly deny us the ability to use the ship in this way if they want. All they have to do is say we can’t resupply outside. I would expect them to then have shit sales on the ship until they relent. More players are interested in the Lib as a pocket carrier than a vehicle transport. If anything I’d expect them to grow the ship a couple meters and add bunks. It is their job to give players what they want, not to frustrate them.

 

[Bambooza]

Well, I didn’t say “hundreds of thousands” I said “hundreds or thousands”. And yeah, a frigate or destroyer has hundreds. A carrier has thousands. 81 does not seem like too many for the Idris. For years the original Polaris docs said 11-27 with 12 marines as optional.

As to the Lib, we’ll see when the time comes. If it sits it fits and certainly, 3 Eclipse will fit. I posted the graphic of this when the Lib was first released. Using the viewer online it is apparent 3 Eclipse will fit outside and a dozen arrows will fit inside. 5 MIS flying in support will supply an additional 15 bunks and if CIG allows more than 1 per bed, 3 MIS is optimal.

Going to limited by how many actors (both npc and pc) a single server can handle. While it might be possible for an Idris to be it's own server I can't imagine they would split it further.

Still groups of 12 players is is doable. 25 player groups is difficult but can be managed. 100 player raids I have not seen since the days of eq and even then it was a nightmare. Even in eve battle fleets over a dozen hardly exist and the large fleet battles sort of just organically form with little overall leadership or direction.

 

[Talonsbane]

“hundreds of thousands”

While it would be absolutely amazing for SC to someday have that many players logged into SC at the same time in such a way that they could potentially gather together to interact, I know that if that gets anywhere remotely close to that, my PC will give me the blue screen middle finger & nope me out of the game instantly. It would still be worth it to see that though.

 

[Richard Bong]

Well, I didn’t say “hundreds of thousands” I said “hundreds or thousands”. And yeah, a frigate or destroyer has hundreds. A carrier has thousands. 81 does not seem like too many for the Idris. For years the original Polaris docs said 11-27 with 12 marines as optional.

As to the Lib, we’ll see when the time comes. If it sits it fits and certainly, 3 Eclipse will fit. I posted the graphic of this when the Lib was first released. Using the viewer online it is apparent 3 Eclipse will fit outside and a dozen Arrows will fit inside. (Actually more, but 12 leaves room for other activities on the deck, as well as some other craft.). 5 MIS flying in support will supply an additional 15 bunks and if CIG allows more than 1 per bed, 3 MIS is optimal. The MIS do not need to land on the deck. They can dock with the collar to transfer PCs.

CIG can certainly deny us the ability to use the ship in this way if they want. All they have to do is say we can’t resupply outside. I would expect them to then have shit sales on the ship until they relent. More players are interested in the Lib as a pocket carrier than a vehicle transport. If anything I’d expect them to grow the ship a couple meters and add bunks. It is their job to give players what they want, not to frustrate them.

Max 24 on the original Polaris sales page: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15546-The-2946-RSI-Polaris
The Brochure linked from that page says 13 to 24. Everything since says 6-17. The Polaris brochure shows 6 bunk beds and two additional beds are listed in the Q&A belonging to the Captain and either the XO or the small craft pilot. It also has 12 Escape pods in the brochure.

Since the initial Polaris sales page, the trend is to lower crew requirements, sometimes to the absurd level. For example the Carack has a max crew of 6 but has 7 duty stations just on the bridge, plus 3 turrets not manned from the Bridge, stations for two in the Med Bay, two drone operator stations, at least two engineer stations, the upper deck mapping stations for the stellar cartographer, and the small craft launch station. (I'm probably missing something too.) The MSR has 5 duty stations with a max crew of 3. The C2 has at least pilot, 2 gunners, Engineer and load master but a max crew of 2, in fact there isn't even a seat for the second gunner.