Is the hammer head a capital or not?!

Sirus7264

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Id never put destroyers or cruisers in the capital range. Battlecruiser possibly(U.S. Navy doesnt have one) Aircraft carrier yes now you can say they are all Warships. DDGs and CGs are meant to protect the carrier in every fleet those i would count more tword the polaris etc range. Yes they are warships but by far not even close to a capital in firepower. Below is a pretty good article by Navsea https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Media/News/Article/1523591/why-doesnt-the-navy-have-battle-cruisers/
 

atpbx

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On one hand In a very lose definition, yes as it could be the largest ship in a given fleet.

On the other hand, once anything larger or more important than it (every other large ship, Idris, Javelin, Endeavour, Polaris) becomes part of the fleet, it stops being a capital ship, as they are more capable, more important ships to the fleet than it is, as its just a big gun platform that has no fleet support facilities at all.
 

Shadow Reaper

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HH is designed as a patrol boat, not a ship of the line. You can argue whether corvettes are authentic ships of the line, becasue experience shows if you want to win a battle, you can put them in fleet engagements, but if you want to win a war, you do not. That ambiguity, caused by the fact they get killed by real warships, is behind the disagreement whether they are true cap ships. We should not expect the Polaris can take a hit from a spinal mount on a bigger ship and survive. Interestingly, the Vanduul Void Bomber is being described as the counterpart to the Polaris, and it has three spinal mounts. They're not much use against bigger ships because they can't take a hit, and spinal mounts aren't any use against smaller ships. So the Void Bomber looks like it is squared off evenly against the Polaris and they could each kill the other, or be killed by the other. In that scenario I much prefer torps to guns, so I'm interested to see how the Polaris and Void Bomber square off.

Also meriting consideration is the excellent lore on the Void Bomber. Apparently it was a pair of VBs that attacked and destroyed the outpost on Leir. That's a great use for that class of vessel, and probably will make the VBs ubiquitous in Vanduul space--good hunting for the Son's of Orion! The Idris probably can't catch them, but I'll bet the Polaris can.

The HH is not in that class of ambiguity. It's a patrol vessel, not a cap ship.
 
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Talonsbane

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I could easily be mistaken here, but for some reason, when thinking of the Hammerhead in terms of the ships in the US fleet during WWII, the HH reminds me of the smaller ships that would line the outside of the fleet to protect the carriers from incoming aircraft as well as from the torpedoes from submarines. In this analogy, the HH wouldn't be a capital ship, but definitely a good ship to protect the more important ships even if they are more easily destroyed. I'd like the opinions of those that would like to correct or confirm this thinking of mine.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I could easily be mistaken here, but for some reason, when thinking of the Hammerhead in terms of the ships in the US fleet during WWII, the HH reminds me of the smaller ships that would line the outside of the fleet to protect the carriers from incoming aircraft as well as from the torpedoes from submarines. In this analogy, the HH wouldn't be a capital ship, but definitely a good ship to protect the more important ships even if they are more easily destroyed. I'd like the opinions of those that would like to correct or confirm this thinking of mine.
That is essentially correct. Smaller ships run "picket" just as soldiers on the battlefield do--to warn of the enemy's approach and also to intercept incoming torpedoes and fighters. Corvettes often do this. The thing with corvette class ships (and they're often called other tings, like "frigates" and even "destroyers", the destroyers of the US Navy during WWII were tiny "tin cans") is they are not designed to take hits from heavier vessels. So thought you can put them into an engagement when necessary, you will likely lose them immediately. OTOH, if that's what you need to do to win the battle, and the battle is that important, then navies have done this on numerous occasions.

Picket ships are often far smaller than a corvette as well. A lot changed with the development of radar, so comparing before and after WWII is probably futile.


For use in SC large fleet engagements, if the mission is to give warning of an enemy approach, probably corvettes are the best picket ships since they are the smallest birds with cap ship scan. The HH is only medium (same as the Vanguard), so would not give much warning. If the battlefield is small enough that one will know where the enemy is, and the mission is protection, then HHs are better for shooting down fighters, but recall this is all in 3D, so the ability to build a shield of sorts is hugely limited. It's just not possible to design an effective picket in space--you'd need thousands of ships. What you see with planetary blockades and such in Star Wars is certainly not possible. See above the link of the battle at Okinawa, how many small ships they needed for their picket line, and think of what that would mean in 3D.

The real action in fleet engagements is probably not going to be in static fire situations, but in maneuver warfare. The HH is fast, and if it can avoid big guns and torpedoes, it can get in and do terrible damage to much larger ships. Worse still, if it were loaded up with distortion scatterguns a single HH could quite possibly neutralize a large portion of an enemy fleet for limited time. You could sacrifice an HH to paralyze all the biggest guns and stop them dead in space for shooting in a barrel. Fleets should be terrified an HH could get through, or anything that can do that kind of damage.
 
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Talonsbane

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I never spent time in the military officially. I did 4 years of high school JROTC though which enhanced my love & appreciation for those that serve. I did apply to sign up right out of high school, but unfortunately, during my childhood, my knees had been damaged so badly that I would have to have surgery to repair them well enough to qualify & they told me that if I got the surgery on my knees, that would also disqualify me. I was rather heart broken over that catch 22. Granted, that was back in the summer of 1996, so there wasn't any sort of need for new recruits at that time.

I have always been a history buff, especially where military aspects were involved. I grew up listening to stories from both of my grandfathers who served during WWII. 1 was a tank commander in Europe, the other was a fighter pilot that served in both Europe & in the Pacific. I honestly don't recall which units they were in though. I haven't heard those stories in about 25 years or more.

I grew up with the heart of a patriot & will always have the utmost respect for those that serve, but not just those in the military, but also the police, firefighters & EMT's that also face hazardous conditions to save lives. My apologies to those that might feel that reading this was a waste of time. I know that some of us wild & wonderful TEST members either do or have served in these rolls & I wanted to take a moment to let them know how much I respect them.
 

Sirus7264

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On one hand In a very lose definition, yes as it could be the largest ship in a given fleet.

On the other hand, once anything larger or more important than it (every other large ship, Idris, Javelin, Endeavour, Polaris) becomes part of the fleet, it stops being a capital ship, as they are more capable, more important ships to the fleet than it is, as its just a big gun platform that has no fleet support facilities at all.
you may be confusing flagship with capital ship.
I never spent time in the military officially. I did 4 years of high school JROTC though which enhanced my love & appreciation for those that serve. I did apply to sign up right out of high school, but unfortunately, during my childhood, my knees had been damaged so badly that I would have to have surgery to repair them well enough to qualify & they told me that if I got the surgery on my knees, that would also disqualify me. I was rather heart broken over that catch 22. Granted, that was back in the summer of 1996, so there wasn't any sort of need for new recruits at that time.

I have always been a history buff, especially where military aspects were involved. I grew up listening to stories from both of my grandfathers who served during WWII. 1 was a tank commander in Europe, the other was a fighter pilot that served in both Europe & in the Pacific. I honestly don't recall which units they were in though. I haven't heard those stories in about 25 years or more.

I grew up with the heart of a patriot & will always have the utmost respect for those that serve, but not just those in the military, but also the police, firefighters & EMT's that also face hazardous conditions to save lives. My apologies to those that might feel that reading this was a waste of time. I know that some of us wild & wonderful TEST members either do or have served in these rolls & I wanted to take a moment to let them know how much I respect them.
Glad there are people still out there who actually appreciate the military it feels like more and more people are shifting their thoughts to guns are bad military just kills people... Well written and i'm sure if you were in the military you would have done well. supporting your military is just as important as being part of it.
 

Thraesh

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I never spent time in the military officially. I did 4 years of high school JROTC though which enhanced my love & appreciation for those that serve. I did apply to sign up right out of high school, but unfortunately, during my childhood, my knees had been damaged so badly that I would have to have surgery to repair them well enough to qualify & they told me that if I got the surgery on my knees, that would also disqualify me. I was rather heart broken over that catch 22. Granted, that was back in the summer of 1996, so there wasn't any sort of need for new recruits at that time.

I have always been a history buff, especially where military aspects were involved. I grew up listening to stories from both of my grandfathers who served during WWII. 1 was a tank commander in Europe, the other was a fighter pilot that served in both Europe & in the Pacific. I honestly don't recall which units they were in though. I haven't heard those stories in about 25 years or more.

I grew up with the heart of a patriot & will always have the utmost respect for those that serve, but not just those in the military, but also the police, firefighters & EMT's that also face hazardous conditions to save lives. My apologies to those that might feel that reading this was a waste of time. I know that some of us wild & wonderful TEST members either do or have served in these rolls & I wanted to take a moment to let them know how much I respect them.
As someone who has served and is going back to serve once more, I for one appreciate comments like this as I'm sure all who have and are still serving in all aspects do.

Thank you
 

Shadow Reaper

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I have always been a history buff, especially where military aspects were involved. I grew up listening to stories from both of my grandfathers who served during WWII. 1 was a tank commander in Europe, the other was a fighter pilot that served in both Europe & in the Pacific.
Trust me, you want to read this very badly:

Hanson is amazing, and his background is very much like yours. VDH is a huge favorite of mine.
 
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Blind Owl

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I never spent time in the military officially. I did 4 years of high school JROTC though which enhanced my love & appreciation for those that serve. I did apply to sign up right out of high school, but unfortunately, during my childhood, my knees had been damaged so badly that I would have to have surgery to repair them well enough to qualify & they told me that if I got the surgery on my knees, that would also disqualify me. I was rather heart broken over that catch 22. Granted, that was back in the summer of 1996, so there wasn't any sort of need for new recruits at that time.

I have always been a history buff, especially where military aspects were involved. I grew up listening to stories from both of my grandfathers who served during WWII. 1 was a tank commander in Europe, the other was a fighter pilot that served in both Europe & in the Pacific. I honestly don't recall which units they were in though. I haven't heard those stories in about 25 years or more.

I grew up with the heart of a patriot & will always have the utmost respect for those that serve, but not just those in the military, but also the police, firefighters & EMT's that also face hazardous conditions to save lives. My apologies to those that might feel that reading this was a waste of time. I know that some of us wild & wonderful TEST members either do or have served in these rolls & I wanted to take a moment to let them know how much I respect them.
Thank you my friend. From the bottom of my heart.
 

Sirus7264

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No.....

I mean here is the first definition of capital ship on the internet:

Your source is correct please read below. You can't just make any ship a "Capital ship" it doesnt work like that. I work for the navy i know my stuff lol.
In the 21st century, the aircraft carrier is the last remaining capital ship, with capability defined in decks available and aircraft per deck, rather than in guns and calibers. The United States possesses supremacy, in both categories of aircraft carriers, possessing not only 11 active duty supercarriers each capable of carrying and launching nearly 100 tactical aircraft, but an additional 12 amphibious assault ships as capable (in the "Sea Control Ship" configuration) as the light VSTOL carriers of other nations.[7]
 

Thraesh

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Your source is correct please read below. You can't just make any ship a "Capital ship" it doesnt work like that. I work for the navy i know my stuff lol.
In the 21st century, the aircraft carrier is the last remaining capital ship, with capability defined in decks available and aircraft per deck, rather than in guns and calibers. The United States possesses supremacy, in both categories of aircraft carriers, possessing not only 11 active duty supercarriers each capable of carrying and launching nearly 100 tactical aircraft, but an additional 12 amphibious assault ships as capable (in the "Sea Control Ship" configuration) as the light VSTOL carriers of other nations.[7]
That's my big issue with how they have their fleet designed, they placed the Kraken far below the Javelin in size comparison. Is the Kraken a light carrier or something? I served in the Navy for 6 years and about to serve again. My ship was a destroyer and man is it tiny next to a carrier
 
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