Joystick advice...

[Sayora]

Ok.. I am appealing to the Wisdom of Test Squadron - Ya I know.. first mistake

I am considering joining the elite analog input crew! However, never having used a joy stick (ha ha..) and being a long time KBM MMO goddess! I don't know if I want to invest heavily in this, but having done a little re-search it seems no such thing as cheap in this world.

So... what I want/need
Decent quality hopefully without being mega expensive - Love seeing those super fancy Virpel (or whatever) set ups or whatever but that's a commitment!
Also need a decent cheap desk mount as my desktop is barley big enough for my keyboard and mouse. Also looking more HOTAS then HOSAS... seems more natural to me but feel free to change my mind, keeping in mind I am not really a dogfighter person (why would you fight dogs? they are so cute and loyal?)

 

[StdDev]

For desk mounts I love my MONSTERTECH mounts. As for joysticks... you can go the Thrustmaster T16000 route.. they are certainly adequate and if you are a heavy handed pilot might last a year or two. To set up with a pair of desk (table) mounts and Thrustmasters you are probably looking at $300+ (The MONSTERTECH mounts cost a bit to ship around... they're in Germany)

Joystick / HOTAS Desk Mount – MTSIM USA

Aluminium desk mount for joystick, throttle and HOTAS systems. Compatible with Brunner, CH Products, Logitech, Thrustmaster, VKB, Virpil and Winwing models. For a HOTAS setup (joystick and throttle) two mounts are needed. [sc name="stock_usa"][/sc]

monstertechusa.com

 

[Michael]

Hotas vs Hosas

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGkORJhwdY


TLDW: it took him weeks to get used to HoTaS. Switching from HoTaS to HoSaS took him 10 minutes and he felt comfortable and natural with it.
And i agree in space it feels absolutely natural from the first minute.
HoSaS is good if you're fliying other flight sims. So if you want to do something else than space sims thats still a viable part. I would recommend having at least two analog axis (mini stick on the throttle)

Entry Level: Thrustmaster T16000M is the best entry level stick. I heard and experienced twist axis isses after a couple of years. So i guess its a common problem. But overall for the price point a great entry level stick.
Dual Stick setup should cost you ~$100 - $150. (left right hand are changeable out of the box)
T16k is also available as HoTaS.

Mid tier: Saitek X56, TM Warthog or VKB Gladiator NXT. Main reason to get one of those are more buttons at your hand and a slightly improved precision. (i noticed a small improvement in the deadzone to T16k)
Build Quality should be pretty solid on all of those sticks. Gladiator Stick is mostly plastics but solid material.
Dual Stick setup should cost you $300 - $500.

VKB is working on mid tier throttles but hasn't released them yet.
TM Warthog (left hand conversion is available but i don't think there is native support)
VKB Gladiator NXT (left right hand available).
Saitek not sure if left hand is available

(I'm using the gladiator sticks myself, i made a review somewhere here in the forum)

High End: Virpil (with constellation grip) or VKB Gunfighter (with Kosmosima grip). Main reason is the high end build quality. You can adjust the stick behavior (springs and cams) to you liking and also its safe to use extenders for more enhanced precision and/or better implementation in your flight rig. Also the base has a much smaller profile.
Dual Stick setup should cost you ~$1000+.
Both High end Sticks are very similar in build quality and its more if you like one of the grips better or a matter of availibility. (expect long wait and delivery times)
Virpil has a high end throttle available. VKB is currently working on a high end model.

My recommendation:
If $300 to $500 is in your price range i would recommend the VKB Gladiator NXT.
I strongly would choose the premium version unless you really want to cut a little on the budget here.
The T16000M is also great option. But i'm 95% certain you will want to replace them after 2-4 years. ^^ (mostly due to the lack of buttons)


Warning this is an extended review:

An Engineer’s Take on the VKB Gunfighter MCG Pro Mk II – Jay the Skeptical Engineer

Table mount: currently making my own one with aluminium profiles so no recommendation from my side

My Joystick history
T Flight Hotas X -> hated it. Big deadzones. Build quality was okayish.
T16000M -> missed buttons but liked it
Gladiator K -> Great stick not available anymore

Testing:
Gladiator NXT -> similar to the K but waiting for a replacement part. (likely a broken cable)

 

[Daak Gelrin]

I use a Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle/stick/pedal combo with monstertech desk mounts. All total I think I may have paid around $500 or so. Check options on amazon, because I believe you used to be able to get a setup for monthly payments. I'm a big DCS pilot, and wanted the throttle quadrant and pedals for it, so that choice makes sense for me. If you want to dual stick or good single stick, the T16000 route is very affordable. I used one for a few years before upgrading to my current setup, and had no issues with the stick. In fact, it worked extremely well for the price.

 

[Hybus]

If you're looking to dip your toe into the analog market so to speak, the usual startup of the dual T16000's are the way to go. Cheap as dirt and they are even easy to upgrade from with a pro stick down the line. Just replace whatever stick you use as primary for the pitch/yaw with a nice virpil (what I did) then replace the other when convenient. I still have a throttle on the desk, an x-56 from logitech, but i use it almost exclusively for mining, I find I get nice precision control on the laser with it.

 

[Thalstan]

On the really cheap, there is this
ThrustMaster T.Flight Hotas 4 for PS4 and PC - PlayStation 4 - I do not recommend this This will run about 170 or so.
Thrustmaster 2960778 T.16000M FCS HOTAS Controller - This is the one I would recommend in this price range and is probably the best for the person looking to get into the market without going full out


Next up, the mid-range systems. These range from 250-350 USD.
Logitech G X52 Flight Control System - Decent, but lacks a lot of buttons This has a joystick twist feature, so no pedals needed
Logitech G Pro Flight X56 Rhino HOTAS - fixes the button issue (somewhat...this is SC after all), but also has the twist feature too. This is my recommendation for the price range

Upper end systems - Any of these can be good.

VirPil.COM - Official site

The best devices for virtual pilots

virpil.com

VKB North America

We sell VKB Flight & Space Simulation Controllers for customers in the United States and Canada.

vkbcontrollers.com

Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog (for PC/Windows)
There is also a new one out of China that I can't remember the name of. No opinion on that one.

When you find you need more buttons

b-explorer 02 : Pivot Mount | BlackHog

www.black-hog.com

https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Cougar-Flight-Control-Panels/dp/B002HH9TRY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1JTSH1PZNOUAK&dchild=1&keywords=thrustmaster+mfd+cougar+pack&qid=1605537143&sprefix=thrustmaster+mf,aps,165&sr=8-1 - what I use
https://gameglass.gg/ - best bet if you already have a tablet.


I run the thrustmaster HOTAS, Thrustmaster Pedals, cougar MFD (button boxes) and gameglass, and I still can't map all the controls. However, I get most of them.

Try out a bunch. What is right for me, may not be right for you. I am a larger male (6'2") that plays kendo (martial art) and guitar, so my arm and more importantly, wrist strength is higher than most. That means the Warthog - which has a heavier spring, works for me. It may not work for you. I don't like joysticks with weak springs because I tend to overcorrect, but you may like them.

A note, I would prefer to not use pedals as my setup isn't good for it. I have mapped one axis of rotation to a thumb stick on my throttle. If you have a twist, you don't have to use a kludgy setup like that.

 

[Cugino83]

I second the raccomandations of @Thalstan, I've the Logitec X56 Rhino for a couple of years now and it's fine: it does have a good amount of button and switches and the analog mini joystick on the throtttle for games like SC is a must have IMHO for strafing.
I've to admit 'tho that I've not payed it full price, I get it "used" from amazon at around 50% of the cost, If I'll have to pay the full price I'll probably not be so happy about it: the stick of mine is a bit wobbly and lack precision especially on the left side of the X axis, for what I've payed it is fine, but at full price it will be a no go for me.

 

[Sayora]

Wow thanks lots of info to look into, interesting so many suggested the Logitech, I had herd those where bad? But Iike the look of them very sci fi

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Like everyone else, I'm voting T16000 as the best entry point. You get a bunch of buttons, decent enough precision, twist for roll (or turn) and a throttle (I use it for speed limiter), all in one neat package, for a very good price. As you are already used to KBM, I think you will be fine without having to memorize 59+ new buttons on a fancy joystick.

I've been searching for a good middle-ground stick for ages, but there don't seem to be any. The Logitech X56s are a gamble at best, loads of issues with wobbly sticks, bad wiring and dead twists. I come to hate Logitech with a passion anyways, only had bad experiences with their products.

The VKB Gladiator seems like a good bet but it is pricey and it's like never in stock. Virpils cost even more, so out of the q for me.

Spoiler: what Not to buy

I can't really tell you what else is worth looking into, as I still fly my old MS sidewinder 3D pro with a diy USB converter, but I can tell you what NOT to buy:

- in loads of SC official videos you can see it, and on joystick threads outside of TEST, ppl recommend the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro as The cheap entry. Don't. Just don't. It IS JUNK!
It wouldn't be that bad really, but the build quality is really janky. I had 2 over the years (back then I couldn't afford an X52 and there was no T16000 yet), first one broke the main spring in a couple of weeks because the tempering was all wrong and rock hard. Second one lasted a while but it had terrible drift after a while and felt like it was sticking at the end of travel. Just avoid it and get the T16000.

- I recently bought a copy of the old Cobra V5 or whatever it was called, reproduced under the brand name TItanwolf. Looking at amazon there are other brand-name variants available. It has too few buttons and while the main axis precision isn't bad, it lags! Also the twist has a hardware deadzone of 20 degrees at least, which is reeeealy bad. So avoid anything that looks like a derivative of this. I'll be keeping mine, taking it apart, changing the board and changing the damn pot on the twist, cos otherwise I like it.

- The last of it's brand, the Saitek Aviator. If you happen to find one for cheap in a store, Avoid like the plague. It looks pretty professional, but it's utter trash.

As for mounting hardware:
Buy a couple of L brackets and screws from the hardware store. You can buy the custom size you need, for like no money compared to purpose built mounts.

 

[Doggen]

Ive tried out a few sticks and this is my opinion on them:

X52 quite liked them, but sold them and upgraded to a cougar and later to a warthog.
Warthog is too heavy for a space combat game imo, stick itself is great
my T16000ms broke a few times and feel pretty cheap in the button department. That trigger just pisses me off
X65F couldnt get used to it but fun experiment

Ended up with 2 VKB Gladiators since they have all the buttons and sliders you could ever want, good quality feel and dont cost a billion dollars.
Quite loose too which works well for a space sim.
The MKII model has a little analogue stick on it too but I dont need it honestly.
Oh and use G29 pedals for down brake and up action since why the hell not ;)

Also not a fan of desk mounts. It is pretty immersive to fly that way but I thought it was too much hassle to switch from flight to FPS without the stick poking you awkwardly.
I have my sticks on my desk and move em aside when I dont need them.

 

[wmk]

I've been using my X52 Pro for 10 years; it's the only stick I have and it still works very well -- however... i'ts been manufactured by Saitek, the company that originally designed and developed X52 and X56, and was sold to Mad Cats in 2007 and then acquired by Logitech few years later.

@Sayora if you are a long time KB+M player, consider hands on stick and mouse (HOSAM); I love it.

Left Handed Joystick With Mouse (HOSAM)

I've been flying with keyboard + mouse for almost two years in SC. I used to be using Saitek X52 Pro HOTAS in conventional configuration /throttle on the left, stick on the right/, but I had serious problems with aiming -- that's why I switched to kb+m. I'm mainly flying in decoupled mode and I...

testsquadron.com

/joystick setup in 11th post/

 

[Cugino83]

Wow thanks lots of info to look into, interesting so many suggested the Logitech, I had herd those where bad? But Iike the look of them very sci fi

Well Logitech stop producing Joistick a looong time ago, like when PC stop having the "game port".... the new series came from the acquisition of Saiteck a few years ago.
I assume the MadCats quality control was not theyr best feature and is possibile that some old item manufactured by then are still around so as conseguence quality may vary a lot.

Concerning Logitech quality I've no doubt: never ever have a problem with theyr material, be it keyboard, mouse, webcam etc... so I'm quite confident they can rise the quality of the stick and improve them (compared to the similar price devices).
A word of warning: the X56 from Logitech have gray color scheme, the original from Saitek a blue one, stay away from the second...

 

[Ayeteeone]

Seriously many good comments here.. it's covered well.

My adds - I run dual stick, Virpil Alphas. Yes, it's pricey. Yes, I wasted a lot of money on cheaper controls. Dual stick is mentally easier than HOTAS; you push, the ship goes.

My son is also a M&K player.. he prefers Left stick for strafe + mouse. It's a very good control method that doesn't require retraining your brain, and the T16000 is perfectly adequate in this role as the precision is in your mouse hand.

Honeycomb has announced a mid range set of joysticks. It will likely be a year before they hit market, but given the quality of their Alpha and Bravo units, they are expected to be very good value.

Edit - Foxx Mounts makes solid desk mount units at a lower price than Monstertech. It is a few seconds to unclamp and move where needed.

 

[Sayora]

Thank you all, I think I know what Santa is bringing me for Xmas!

 

[Radegast74]

You may have chosen the worst time to try to buy "cheap entry level sticks" -- a quick look at Amazon shows that everything is scarce and overpriced.

I agree with pretty much everything everybody has said up above...

My experience, or how I wound up with 2 Virpils: I wanted to try dual joysticks (having never owned a joystick before). I bought 2 Logitech 3d Pro's for the regular price of $25-$30 each, and loved them! Since they are built cheaply, I would regularly break the RH stick; after replacing it twice, I figured it would be more cost-effective to try a better stick, so I got a VKB Gladiator Mk. ii for $100, and I loved it! I went with that for about 18 months, then decided to upgrade to the BIG TIME STICKS and just got the Virpil Constellation Alpha's and OMG THEY ARE GREAT!

I have heard from a lot of people that the T16000's break quite frequently, too, so watch out for that. There are real good arguments for going with the new VKB $150 sticks, if the cheap sticks are way overpriced...

If you are an experienced mouse user and have a lot of muscle memory, you probably really want to consider going the "Joystck and Mouse" route, I know of a couple people who do that.

 

[Sayora]

Yes I am thinking it's worth it to get one o VKB Gladiator and try that + Mouse then would be an easy upgrade to another stick if I wanted to, having looked at everything the 150 usd isn't bad at all comparatively

Thanks all!

 

[Texelis]

You are about to dive down a rabbit hole. I will echo the advice to jump to the Virpil Constellations, took me 8 years to get there.

I've tried it all, and I cannot stress enough how much better it feels flying with dual sticks, it just feels right.

THROTTLES: imo skip it. Great for flight games, not for me with SC. I've tried the Warthog, and CH Pro because it has an analog thumb stick for strafing.
PEDALS: Same opinion here, great for flight, not for space. Had the Logitech Pro's, You just can't get the same response time as a twist JS.
Duel T16000M's: Decent feel, and ok for cargo running/mining. Not very good for dogfighting. You will want more buttons within thumbs reach.
VKB: Great controls, but I'm not a fan of desktop set ups. Getting the sticks in a lower, more comfortable angle is ideal.
WARTHOG JS: Feels amazing in your hand, great layout and amount of buttons/hats/dual stage triggers etc, but - HEAVY. Moving that thing around during a long dogfight gets tiring. Even the trigger has a heavy pull. I've had 2, and tried modifying them with lighter springs, removing springs on the trigger. THEY DON"T HAVE TWIST, major downfall.
DESK MOUNTS: Monstertech are great, but expensive. Regardless, you need to get the controls in a lower positions. So the actual JS grip is straight off of your chair arm rests. It makes it easier to use all of the buttons/hats etc on the JS, and it's way more comfortable for longer play sessions.

Look at the SC keybind list. Selecting friendly/enemy targets, scanning, pin targets, camera views, multiple weapon selections, countermeasures, strafing, navigating menus and the STARMAP - you want to be able to do everything at once, no shit (no cap if you're under 30 :) ) Being able to do that without removing a hand from the control is paramount. Having the correct JS layout, and quick access to all your available options, will save your life over and over again.

I believe I've spent just as much money getting to the Virpils, as I did getting the Virpils, if that makes sense.

Good luck!

 

[BUTUZ]

Before you spend 2000 bucks on a cokpit set up, pick up a thrustmaster t16000 stick , throttle and if you need them, pedals.

Get a good feel for what a decent budget hall effect sensor joystick can do before you move onwards and upwards. I used to use 2 x t16000 sticks and used to do a lot of killing in SC - i gave one to my cousin to play flight sims so I only do half as much killing now.

 

[vahadar]

Like many have mentioned before, the T16000 (if possible T16000M-FCS instead of T16000M) will get you a sturdy joystick. It is made of plastic but very durable for the price. And if you get a second one, you can easily switch the joystick to left/right hand configuration.

I guess other more expansive joystick like Virpil, VKB and so on are really if you want to go the "cockpit" route, because really the T16000 will do the job for a long time (have mine for a few years, and its like new). It wont be as wow effect than the virpil, but really if it is your first time with sticks you will love them. Plus you can get them much cheaper, easier and faster than any virpil/vkb/warthog. Vkb and virpil tend to be out of stock quite often. You can get two T16000 for less than 150$ easily.

The T16000M-FCS is as precise as the Warthog, it is exactly the same technology used inside for that purpose.

edit : the ThrustMaster T16000M-FCS is available as HOTAS too, with the TWCS (Thrustmaster Weapon Control System). Personally, i own it but i prefer to replace it with a second joystick.

 

[Sayora]

I looked at the T16000, and decided on the VKB Gladiator NXT Premium, with the prices they way they are now it was only a bit more expensive and it seems you get a lot more stick for the money.