Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV LOTR series)

Vavrik

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Either way....the nothingburger about the casting annoys me to no end (This character is too white, that one too dark, why are elves black? etc etc). Like who cares? This is a show loosely based on Tolkien's work anyway and Amazon can cast whomever they choose. I'm more concerned about stuff like writing, pacing, acting, production values, etc. You know....the stuff that really determines whether a show succeeds or not.
You're the expert here in movies, I'm just the audience.

Try this. compare a map of middle earth drawn by Tolkien, with a map of Europe 40 to 20,000 years ago. The resemblance is striking, even though Prof. Tolkien was using just conjecture made by HG Wells (who he knew.) Pay attention to Doggerland in the second map. Also consider that humans of two species lived in Europe for half of that time, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us). By about 30,000 years ago, Neanderthals had died out, but their DNA lives on, in about 2/3rds of us. Mix in Denisovan DNA in Asia, and you have the basic picture. Before that however, Homo Sapiens Sapiens in both Europe and in Asia, were basically African. We still have this in our DNA today.

So what I'm saying is, some of this was unknown to Tolkien in his lifetime. It was suspected by scientists starting in the early 1990's, and later that same decade, confirmed. Go ahead, look it up.

Edit- 2 images to compare: First image is of course, from LOTR. Second image is from the Smithsonian Institute
Middle-earth2.jpg
doggerland.jpg
 
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Aramsolari

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You're the expert here in movies, I'm just the audience.

Try this. compare a map of middle earth drawn by Tolkien, with a map of Europe 40 to 20,000 years ago. The resemblance is striking, even though Prof. Tolkien was using just conjecture made by HG Wells (who he knew.) Pay attention to Doggerland in the second map. Also consider that humans of two species lived in Europe for half of that time, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us). By about 30,000 years ago, Neanderthals had died out, but their DNA lives on, in about 2/3rds of us. Mix in Denisovan DNA in Asia, and you have the basic picture. Before that however, Homo Sapiens Sapiens in both Europe and in Asia, were basically African. We still have this in our DNA today.

So what I'm saying is, some of this was unknown to Tolkien in his lifetime. It was suspected by scientists starting in the early 1990's, and later that same decade, confirmed. Go ahead, look it up.

Edit- 2 images to compare: First image is of course, from LOTR. Second image is from the Smithsonian Institute
View attachment 23374View attachment 23375
I think you're preaching to the choir. Like I said, Tolkien's a product of his age and even then he was far better educated than the typical Englishman of his time.

I actually agree with you (I think). I'm a bit peeved about folks who go off about Rings of Power being 'Woke' due to casting decisions or how it'll be ruined by black Elves or whatever. Like calm down nerds....it's fantasy, a work of fiction. Either way, I'm more annoyed about how annoying Galadriel and some of the Hobbits (Harfoots) have been so far.
 

Bambooza

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I think you're preaching to the choir. Like I said, Tolkien's a product of his age and even then he was far better educated than the typical Englishman of his time.

I actually agree with you (I think). I'm a bit peeved about folks who go off about Rings of Power being 'Woke' due to casting decisions or how it'll be ruined by black Elves or whatever. Like calm down nerds....it's fantasy, a work of fiction. Either way, I'm more annoyed about how annoying Galadriel and some of the Hobbits (Harfoots) have been so far.
They are annoying but they do have some valid points. I’ve never understood the need to say it’s inverse then try and change the story elements why not make a new story and say inspired by instead. But if your going to base a narrative in world crafted and claim to be in that world then it’s reasonable to stay true to the source material. But it seems that all to often we see stories claiming to be of a loved crafted world and have nothing to do with it as some cheep bait and switch or fear that their story can’t stand on its own which seems far more common to be the case with writers that really need to go back to school and learn the basics of story telling. This show had potential as a reimagined story based on Tolkien’s works as so many fantasy stories have over the years and the graphics are epic even if they are a bit ham fisted in pulling on the strings of nostalgia for the first films. But the show really just crash’s and burns on weak story telling.
 

Aramsolari

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They are annoying but they do have some valid points. I’ve never understood the need to say it’s inverse then try and change the story elements why not make a new story and say inspired by instead. But if your going to base a narrative in world crafted and claim to be in that world then it’s reasonable to stay true to the source material. But it seems that all to often we see stories claiming to be of a loved crafted world and have nothing to do with it as some cheep bait and switch or fear that their story can’t stand on its own which seems far more common to be the case with writers that really need to go back to school and learn the basics of story telling. This show had potential as a reimagined story based on Tolkien’s works as so many fantasy stories have over the years and the graphics are epic even if they are a bit ham fisted in pulling on the strings of nostalgia for the first films. But the show really just crash’s and burns on weak story telling.
In a way we, the audience have only ourselves to blame. We're all so obsessed with existing properties/franchises that we're reluctant to give new IPs a chance. There's a reason the big studios/networks pump out generic 'insert Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Harry Potter' movies. It's because they're guaranteed to capture eyeballs while new stuff is a risk. Add in the fact that production costs have ballooned and I can see why the money men are so risk adversed.

Anyway...yeah the story telling is weak. Still....we're two episodes in and there's six more to go. I hope they pick things up a bit.
 

Sirus7264

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Fell asleep on episode 2 somewhere at the begining will try to watch it again but i always fall asleep with ANY LOTR lol they are just to droning for me. This reminds me alot of game of thrones the way it started. I didnt give it a chance and i found out 3 years later it was actually good and went back to binge watch it.
 

Lorddarthvik

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In a way we, the audience have only ourselves to blame. We're all so obsessed with existing properties/franchises that we're reluctant to give new IPs a chance. There's a reason the big studios/networks pump out generic 'insert Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Harry Potter' movies. It's because they're guaranteed to capture eyeballs while new stuff is a risk. Add in the fact that production costs have ballooned and I can see why the money men are so risk adversed.

Anyway...yeah the story telling is weak. Still....we're two episodes in and there's six more to go. I hope they pick things up a bit.
And that's the point, the creation of what's supposed to be "art" is controlled by money men and thus it has turned into a production line for investors, taking a safe bet instead of taking the risk. The whole scene gets even more complex with a large part of the potential customers moving away from the traditional methods of of consuming (going to the cinema, watching cable TV). In short, streaming has muddied the waters a lot. And on top of all of this the trend of hiring ppl based on traits that have nothing to do with their job, which makes even supposedly safe bets underperform in the end.

So we the viewers end up with a LotR show that had great potential with great visuals and effects and maybe even good actors if they were given the right lines and direction, but it's just not on a level that it should be. Which is even more weird considering the first ep was written by the same person that wrote some great episodes for some of the best TV shows like the X-files , TNG, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul!
It's kinda baffling but I think the reason is that there is no cohesive vision behind this from the creators. They have a rough outline of what they want to happen, the money men have given them a list of what must be in it to pull at our strings (nostalgia for the movies, name drops from lore, familiar objects...), they have the ideologues to please with hiring ppl based on characteristics that have nothing to do with the job they should perform, and they have a legal department combing every single sentence so it doesn't contain anything they don't own (which is like 90% of the world and lore).
Ofc it's not easy to please everyone, but that's the job they willingly chose. If they had a strong vision of what needs to be on screen, we wouldn't have ended up with something so mediocre.

This is gonna sound extremely nitpicky and silly, but hear me out. How do you know that not enough care and attention went into this show? It was obvious from a 3 second shot at the beginning of ep 1.
There was the scene, some flashback scene, where the elves stand in a semi circle and raise their swords pointing to the center. Half of em couldn't hold em up high enough and held their swords with bent elbows... It didn't come off as a heroes united moment, it looked ridiculous!
It's a very simple shot that has no bearing on the show, but if you care about your movie, you will damn well shout at the extras until they can hold those swords up straight, and take your time to get it right, even if it takes 10 minutes more then it should have! (with a well trained crew you should be able to do like 4-5 takes in those 10 minutes cos there's nothing to reset)
I've been to plenty of movie/show/advert shoots, you could always tell if the director cared or not. The ones with vision usually ended up shooting 2-3 hours longer per day at least, with the hacks we sometimes wrapped sooner than planned. I didn't mind going home at 7pm instead of 2 AM, but those extra hours were clearly visible in the end result.

@Bambooza It's funny you should mention the nostalgia bait. On the one hand it's there in some of the visuals (the elven cities, objects like that broach or pin or whatever it's called and so on), yet somehow apart from the dwarves, everyone else feels out of place. The elves have sporty dude-bro footballer hair instead of the long locks and speak like they are in a Starbucks with the occasional "look at me I'm sophisticated and smart" words dropped in, the legally-not-hobbits wear flip flops and have regular sized legs and are very unfun and come off as miserable which is the opposite of what they are based on (and overall look like they were styled after the homeless ppl outside the studio gates) and so on...
So many opportunities to make them feel more nostalgic, and correct to what we expect to see, wasted cos of... no reason I can tell really. Long haired elves are surely not copyrighted lol And they also have a close-enough-to-sue copy of Aragorn in the boat guy, so I really don't get it why they didn't into it more, it actually could've helped the overall feel of the world and characters.
 

Aramsolari

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Also....House of Dragon is far far far better. Episode 3 of the show...holy shiznnits.

HBO is currently winning the battle of Epic Fantasy TV shows. They're no contest kicking the shit out of Amazon Prime at the moment.
 

Bambooza

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Also....House of Dragon is far far far better. Episode 3 of the show...holy shiznnits.

HBO is currently winning the battle of Epic Fantasy TV shows. They're no contest kicking the shit out of Amazon Prime at the moment.
I'll have to check it out. Was a bit sceptical give how the last season of got was botched.
 

Lorddarthvik

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I'll have to check it out. Was a bit sceptical give how the last season of got was botched.
I didn't watch much got (after like 4 seasons I just couldn't care anymore, felt like a soap with too many discardable characters), but all I'm hearing from the usual suspects I follow is that this spinoff series is surprisingly good. All of em were expecting a show filled with Guyladriels but apperently it has decent writing and plot and stuff. Oh and ofc the last Song of InF book got delayed cos of this show, and there is another spinoff show book in the making.... Fans are never getting that last book lol
 

Aramsolari

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I didn't watch much got (after like 4 seasons I just couldn't care anymore, felt like a soap with too many discardable characters), but all I'm hearing from the usual suspects I follow is that this spinoff series is surprisingly good. All of em were expecting a show filled with Guyladriels but apperently it has decent writing and plot and stuff. Oh and ofc the last Song of InF book got delayed cos of this show, and there is another spinoff show book in the making.... Fans are never getting that last book lol
House of the Dragon has much leaner, tighter storytelling than the original GOT. Due to their decision to follow only a handful of characters, the show for me ‘flowed’ better. GOT on the other ping ponged back and forth between a dozen major characters in half a dozen locations and it felt messy at times. Half the time I find myself asking…”Who the hell is this again?”

Completely different showrunners, executive producers, etc. I’ll give it a shot.
 
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Jolly_Green_Giant

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House of the Dragon is amazing, I'm really enjoying the characters. Season 8 didn't make me hate all of game of thrones, so I really didn't have a bad taste in my mouth before I watched house of the dragon. I also didnt see any articles or trailers on it. It's compelling. Rings of power? Yeah even when i turned my mind off to it being tolkien and tried to force myself to like it, I still couldn't. The only two people that even remotely evoked an emotion out of me was Sophia Nomvete and lenny henry (Princess Disa and Sadoc Burrows respectively). Lenny didn't have much dialogue, but his facial expressions and how he was framed made him seem funny and interesting. Disa was just a big ball of joy and it felt like she was actually passionate about her role. I took notes once i realized i wasnt enjoying it as I didn't want to talk out my ass if I expressed why I disliked it. I also wanted to try to point out my own biases because I really, really, really, really wanted to like this show. I would love nothing more than to be excited about a tolkien adaptation for 5 season, have a ton of awesome discussions with people and have two great shows to watch on the weekend. It's just not happening. I highly highly doubt its going to be better and I'm super jealous of those of you who find it compelling to watch.


EDIT: How far my bias stretches...


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EDIT 2: Now I just want to show off my LoTR stuff.



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BUTUZ

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Very nice collection of books Sir!

How about if I flash some of my 1970s editions? Do you like it sir? Ooh suits you Sir!

1662588477331.png
 

Jolly_Green_Giant

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Very nice collection of books Sir!

How about if I flash some of my 1970s editions? Do you like it sir? Ooh suits you Sir!

View attachment 23390
Absolutely gorgeous. I can appreciate a well-crafted book and those are perdy. It just elevates the experience imo. Turns the reading into something special.

Edit: The best part about a well-crafted book is that they should outlast your great great grandchildren.
 

Aramsolari

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The best thing about this episode (3) was this song and the visual intro of the harfoots.

Yes. The soundtrack is excellent. Bear McCreary had big shoes to fill as Howard Shore isn’t exactly an easy act to follow. Thankfully he knocked it out of the park.

Then again the signs of his talent were always there. The soundtrack for Battlestar Galactica and Outlander absolutely rock.
 

Radegast74

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Well it's typical 'Heroes Journey' stuff.

I think they took a look at the Silmarillion and said...."It's boring, let's do our own shit" to well....mixed results.

I'm willing to watch a couple more episodes because I'm a fan of the franchise and because I have colleagues who worked on it. Gotta support ya know.
I agree. I watched the first episode last night (almost fell asleep, but that's my fault, too late, too much whiskey). The Slmarillion is tough to put to a TV script, I'm sure, although I have no experience in that, just a guess. So, if I look at it as entertainment and good scenery, then go back and watch the original LOTR, I can effectively separate them. LOL. Hopefully the cinematic parts make it worth the look, otherwise I won't last for many episodes.
I'm going to give it a watch, but yeah, it is based on the Silmarillion, which is really tough to dramatize. The Silmarillion reads like a cross between a dry history text and the bible, with some great stories sprinkled in (the only one I can remember is Beren & Luthien).

I'll give it a watch, with low expectations. That's usually the way to go.
 

BUTUZ

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FYI even us English gentleman quite like a bit of roughty toughty.

This Howard Shore soundrack deserves no less than some of the very best muscle America had to offer.

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