Luke is not dead

[Shadow Reaper]

I dunno..

Does any of that fit in with lore?

Yes. Official Lore is that Luke is the purest and strongest Jedi in the history of the order. They cannot leave him all cynical and depressed and fit that into the official lore. The character has to repent and be redeemed to fit that lore. We saw this when he faced the entire First Order by himself with a laser sword. He is now the most powerful Jedi in history, and he will be back.

As a kid I always thought Empire Strikes Back was the weakest of the original trio as it wasn't very satisfying.

Same here. Despite those who say it is the best SW film ever for many technical reasons, it isn't satisfying any more than any other second act of a three part story. The purpose of the second act is to create a terrible problem that is solved in the third act. Pick any trilogy and you'll see the end of the second story is not emotionally satisfying, because it is a tragedy as written in single story, but is actually the low point in a larger, comic curve three part story.

Hence, "I am your father!" at the end of Empire. BTW, Lucas lied to Hamill and fed him a false script right up until the moments when they went to film that scene, and Hamill being so completely unprepared emotionally for what they were doing to his character, played from the heart and it was a magnificent performance that everyone in the audience felt. This chicanery also protected the story from leaks. They did this same thing to Hamill in Last Jedi, by allowing him to believe he was written out of the new story, when in fact he was not. He went on record saying that Luke is dead and gone and will not be back, which is just what they wanted him to say (truthfully, so far as he knew) to the press. Fact is though, the jig is now up. Latest news, just released:

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/mark-hamill-confirmed-returning-luke-star-wars-episode-ix/

This was all planned well in advance.

When they decided to make 3 more films they made the insane choice to not write am outline for the trilogy but allow the director/writers to make them up on the go.

I don't know where you heard that, but that is not what happened. Force Awakens and Last Jedi are both packed full of nuggets waiting for us to unwrap that will all be explained in the third film. You cannot write this way without writing the entire trilogy.

You tell me, what is with the dice? What is with the Jedi texts moved? What is with Yoda appearing solidly for the first time, and wrapping on Luke's head with his walking stick. All these things are precursors that prepare us for what happens in the third film, but we don't understand them yet and the tension thereby created is so much, that it is making fans angry. Once the third film is out and people understand what they missed, they'll understand that Last Jedi is very possibly the greatest SW film ever made.

Think about Benicio del Toro's character, DJ. People want to hate on him for betraying his comrades. He is this magnificent rogue, who plays the gray line so well he scares us. "Let me learn you something big. It's all a machine. You kill them today, they kill you tomorrow. Live free, don't join." Yet he does join. He's arguing just like Luke, that the Jedi are over, and there really is no difference between light and dark, good and evil. However, once he opens the door for his comrades he hands back to Rose the bit of trophy he got to use as a conductor. He's not a bad guy, and he has made his choice to join them. He only pretends to be impartial, just as Han did at the end of episode 4, and yet shows up to clear the path for Luke anyway. DJ is Han Solo's replacement, and he is playing the line so well he makes people angry. But look at this face when the First Order officer reports that DJ's intel about the escaping Rebels is good. He is surprised. He had lied to the First Order to secure his release, but did not know his intel was good. He's not a bad guy, and we'll see him again in the next film. This is all incredible storytelling, most of which has gone unnoticed by the fans, which is why they are so pissed.

The new episodes refuse to take risks.

You just missed the risks. Ray found her mentor and he is now out of reach so she has to get by alone, same as most stories that include mentors. Luke's mentor dies at the end of act 1, just as Ray's mentor disappears. She can't count on help there. Except for the support of friends who really can't help, she is alone.

The real story--the thing that ought to terrify--is in the question created by Luke's very carefully worded rants against the Jedi order, and explanations of why they need to end. Everything he says is true, just like everything DJ says about the fight between good and evil is true. It is only their conclusions that are wrong. Recall the explanation in Force Awakens by Maz Kananta--the fight between good and evil is the only fight, and the Jedi are necessary to that fight. We are meant to know the Jedi are a necessary part of this creative conflict between the light and the dark, and we're supposed to be terrified that the light would give up its champion--the Jedi. If you're not there at the end of Last Jedi, you missed the point of the film.

Will good survive? Will the Jedi survive? Will everyone give up hope, just as Luke had, or will Ray's commitments be enough to carry them into a more balanced future? We'll have to wait and see, but no matter what happens, this is incredible storytelling. If you're pissed about Last Jedi, it's because of things you haven't dug out of the film. Go watch it again, and again.

 

[Wolfy]

You just missed the risks. Ray found her mentor and he is now out of reach so she has to get by alone, same as most stories that include mentors. Luke's mentor dies at the end of act 1, just as Ray's mentor disappears. She can't count on help there. Except for the support of friends who really can't help, she is alone.

The real story--the thing that ought to terrify--is in the question created by Luke's very carefully worded rants against the Jedi order, and explanations of why they need to end. Everything he says is true, just like everything DJ says about the fight between good and evil is true. Yet somehow we are meant to know the Jedi are a necessary part of this creative conflict between light and dark, and we're supposed to be terrified that the light would give up its champion--the Jedi. If you're not there at the end of Last Jedi, you missed the point of the film.

Will good survive? Will the Jedi survive? Will everyone give up hope, just as Luke had, or will Ray's commitments be enough to carry them into a more balanced future? We'll have to wait and see, but no matter what happens, this is incredible storytelling. If you're pissed about Last Jedi, it's because of things you haven't dug out of the film. Go watch it again, and again.

That's not a risk to me, that's a symptom of poor writing with little planning behind it. Instead of ending the movie with a dark cloud over everything like in the Empire Strikes back, they end the movie with little to no character development and everyone happy on a ship like more than half the Resistance was not just wiped out. The characters don't feel like real people, they feel like characters led along on glowing string. Sure, in the original Luke is led by the Force, but it seems like a real struggle for him to comprehend what is happening and introduces plot twists like Vader being revealed as his father and Yoda pushing him to become stronger with the force. None of that appears to happen in the new movies, power is handed out whenever needed, key characters are plucked out of danger and no actual risks are taken to impact them negatively.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

instead of ending the movie with a dark cloud over everything like in the Empire Strikes back, they end the movie with little to no character development. . .

I suggest you watch it again. Flynn has moved from wanting to run away to leading the charge on the battering ram with the intention of sacrificing his life. Poe Dameron has moved from the impulsive rogue pilot who can't follow orders, to the humbled leader of the resistance, who begs off the fight and leads the retreat. Ray has moved from hapless student seeking tutelage to facing Kylo Ren and the Emperor alone. Kylo Ren has moved from puppet of the Master, to the Puppet Master himself. Luke has moved from dejected, depressed failure, to a demigod. In hubris he had marched his students off to start a new Jedi Order, only to have them all murdered, and who then lives in anguish and exile, rejecting all that he has become and cut off by choice from who he is. In the final moments, he is then utterly transformed by Ray's influence ("You didn't fail Kylo Ren. He failed you. I won't!") to manning up, opening himself afresh to the Force, and doing what he knows only he can do--face the entire First Order alone with a laser sword to become the most powerful Jedi in history. All the central characters are completely altered by the events that surround them. Even DJ, who preaches "don't join", has already in a sense joined the Only Fight.

And the resistance is crushed! There's nothing left. No one came to their call to rescue them. All who survived can fit on a single YT light freighter? How much worse can it get?

Just how much more character development and dark times could one possibly expect in two hours film? I think you missed some things.

 

[ElFlacoverde]

Luke is not dead. And neither is Kennedy.

I don't know for Luke but I'm pretty sure Kennedy is dead. Or all the footage from the Dallas shooting are fake and Oswald/commies/mafia/whatsoever did nothing wrong

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Yeah. . .erm. . .okay, that is funny.

I just want to be sure you understand, there is a lynch mob out for Kathleen Kennedy's blood, for wrecking Luke's character. Someone has already raised more than $10M through crowdfunding to redo the entirety of Last Jedi, because there are so many people who don't understand the story.

It's a big deal that the most devoted fans are so screaming angry that Luke was written as a depressed loser. If you don't get that this is necessary to cope with hubris, then you don't get why this was done.

Going all the way back to Attack of the Clones, we have this open discussion of how more and more Jedi have been vulnerable to hubris. This was in precursor to the fall of Anakin Skywalker, and the real cause of the fall of the Jedi Order. It was hubris that made them blind to the machinations of the Sith. Luke mocks that hubris in himself during his rants. Yoda corrects Luke when he tells him he needs to pass on what he has learned, including what he has learned from his failure. His humility is the key to the new Jedi Order, and we can't explain that humility without seeing and feeling the impact of failure. We should expect to see Luke pass on what he has learned about hubris and humility to Ray in the next film, or at least see in Ray that she has learned from Luke this crucial, pivotal lesson.

It's wonderful writing. The fans just need to be more patient and deep dive into what's offered. It has gone way over the heads of folks who expected a less sophisticated and complex story. People are even whining about the sub-story of Rose and Flynn going off to find a rogue. They miss everything about what is being said concerning the nature of good and evil, they miss that Flynn comes back with this unexpected rogue, about whom EVERYTHING is wrapped in perfect mystery. That rogue has a part yet to play. Their failed attempt to infiltrate the First Order command ship is not the end but the beginning of DJ's role. There is at last one other reason he is part of the adventure, and we can have no idea what that is yet.

The level and kinds of complaints clearly demonstrate to me, we have a fan base of impatient people acting as if they wanted a children's story, when that was the biggest and bestest complaint about the last trilogy. Instead of pandering to children, they wrote for sophisticated adults who are not appreciating the depth of what has been offered.

 

[Dethanor]

Hate to disagree with you but I think you are reading far to much into the last Jedi in the hopes that there is some redeeming meaning to the nonsense.
The last film failed to resonate with fans not because they expected/wanted a childish action movie but simply because it wasn't very good.
The script alone shows that there was very little planned continuity between JJ and RJ and this is obvious from the film itself. Why else would they waste valuable screentime setting up characters to just kill them off in the next instalment without them actually doing anything?

Furthmore both of the new saga movies have made world breaking errors with physics that any decent script editor should have spotted a mile out before they even started filming.
I forgave the first film most of these issues (except the ridiculous star killer laser that splits up and destroys an entire solar system which is somehow visible instantly from another planet, in another solar system) because I hoped they touched on the familiar to get the story rolling for the new saga.
By the time the second episode came out it became clear they just went with the rule of cool and said screw any semblance of realism (yeah I know laser swords and magic ninjas but some rules like the speed of light should still apply)
Why waste all the time with the slow chase or the stupid casino planet, what's the point of risking the lives of rebel pilots when you can just hyperspace through star destroyers and blow them up. (Surely one of the rebel pilots could have just done this to the death star in new hope and saved Biggs and co?)

I hope your right and there is some super deep hidden depth I've overlooked but honestly I'm not holding my breath. I think that JJ will have to work damn hard to put the pieces back together of the story he wanted to tell with awakens.

And if there was an actual plan for all three movies with character arcs you would assume they would have shown this to mark hamill before he went online to tell people how much he hated what they had done with his character. You know kinda "Hey Mark, I know luke is kinda down in the 2nd movie but look what he does in the 3rd, it's gonna be cool."

 

[Crymsan]

Seriously episode 1-3 Hayden Christiansen, just how did a tree get cast as a the main character?

 

[Dethanor]

Seriously episode 1-3 Hayden Christiansen, just how did a tree get cast as a the main character?

He had beautiful foliage.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

The script alone shows that there was very little planned continuity between JJ and RJ and this is obvious from the film itself. Why else would they waste valuable screen time setting up characters to just kill them off in the next installment without them actually doing anything?

I'm not following. Which characters are those?

All the SW movies, books, and TV series are based upon impossible physics, just like most space opera.

And if there was an actual plan for all three movies with character arcs you would assume they would have shown this to Mark Hamill before he went online to tell people how much he hated what they had done with his character.

As I said, they did the opposite for a specific purpose. Just as Lucas hid the big reveal from Hammill when they filmed ESB, they had reasons to not tell Hammill his character was continuing. They wanted, expected and needed him to take TV interviews where he would and did lament that his character was not returning, and that he hated what they had done with it. They needed to do this so everyone would feel what they were intended to feel--anguish that his life was in ruin.

Bear in mind the big picture. Luke is a hero of more than one battle, and of the entire defense against the Empire. He turned around his father. He had so many victories you'd be hard pressed to count them, and he has magical powers that everyone envies. Just how is a demi-god like Luke supposed to be humbled? We needed to feel that humbling, and it was painful for us. It had to be painful, or we would have just brushed it off.

Though I am not a Buddhist, I do appreciate and agree with the message here. The only fix for hubris is humility, and what you have without humility is disaster. It's a great story when taken at that level. Sit back with no agenda, and wade through each scene asking why it's there. The casino planet was a brilliant bit of writing. What is it about evil that is so alluring, and how is it revealed to be what it is? Had those scenes been shot in a context where all the lighting was dark and the corners hidden like Jabba's palace, it would have been easier to see what evil is, yet it would have been far less instructive. Instead we have brilliant writing, "look a little closer."

Could easily be the best SW movie to date, and that's from a guy who is old school.

 

[Dethanor]

There is a rule in narrative storytelling that exists for the purpose of building a believable world.
You set the rules of your world and you never break them or else you lose the suspension of disbelief.
In starwars they cross great distances with faster than light travel and they have a group of space wizards who can do cool stuff. But and this bit is really important. The regular rules of our world also apply. So things like gravity for example still apply unless said space wizards are involved. But everyone else has to make do.
Lightspeed travel exists to make the story interesting as it would be bloody boring to wait for them to get around. However the mechanism for this is a ship with a hyperdrive. Everything else (including light) has to get around the old fashioned way.
So when they show planets popping in another solar system in realtime this smashes the rules and kills the story. This is lazy storytelling and simply because they thought it would look cool. They also missed a huge opportunity to tie back to the films (say having leia feel the core worlds be destroyed and communication be suddenly cut off)
Another example is trying to beat the threat of the death star by having an even bigger one that eats suns (seriously what kinda stupid ass plan is that. "Now we have destroyed the rebels we will claim their land and resources for ourselves. Er sorry sir but we ate the sun so now all the non exploded planets are kinda drifting and uninhabitable)

This is the kind of lazy assed film making that you are trying to defend.

I've read interviews that confirm that RJ had full control and no overarching story line to follow. And as for who did they kill? Er how about so called supreme leader Snoke? Build him up to be the big bad (Who we all know should have died in the 3rd film) and kill him like some punk. That's not even to mention all the new super powers that these non trained Jedi have now. Sure Yoda would have liked to use force powered FaceTime would have saved a lot of hassle with holograms.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

This is the kind of lazy assed film making that you are trying to defend.

Yeah well, I think no matter what anyone writes you're going to complain. I am more concerned with addressing the reasonable complaints concerning the destruction of the character Luke Skywalker by portraying him as a cynic instead of a hero. If you're emotionally upset over how one might explain a hyperspace weapon, no amount of arguing is going to convince you. As I said, ALL of the Star Wars movies include pseudo-science fictions that in some degree, make no sense. Regardless, the Starkiller base is explained to be a "hyperspace weapon", which is easily enough explanation for what is portrayed on the screen, and for the fan base. Your complaint is not popularly felt to have merit, and it's not as if you're the big scientist out of the hundreds of millions of fans. It's that you want to complain.

I am fully aware of what goes into creating a story. I am an award winning screenwriter. You don't need to lecture about suspension of disbelief. Fact is the fans do not have the trouble you have. However, they absolutely hate what Kennedy decided was okay to do to Luke's character, and they want her fired because they do not understand the story. That's the issue. Note, you have not even identified the proper person to take the blame. It's got nothing to do with these other people. It has entirely to do with Kathleen Kennedy. It was her call, and she is the one people want to see fired, all because the fans do not understand what they have seen. So I'm just explaining--no need to be angry. Luke is not dead.

 

[Dethanor]

I'm not angry, just disappointed.
And Luke is dead. Even if they somehow write him back in to to the third film in some way (not just a force ghost) the character that fans have followed all these years is gone.
Clearly you have more invested in this than I so it seems pointless to debate this further. It does baffle me the you have taken the time to defend this sorry excuse for a film as you are surely more qualified than I to point out all of the gaping holes in the plot.
By the way I may not be the "big scientist" I'm just an amateur astrophotographer with a keen interest in astrophysics (one of the reasons I like star citizen and good scifi) and I guarantee you that I am not the only one who thinks they jumped the shark with these new films.

But hey as you said, maybe there is some deep amazing story that simple minds like mine haven't yet grasped. Who knows. One thing for Sure, me and countless others like me who grew up with this franchise are disappointed with what has been produced so far. If they are pinning all thier hopes on this amazing double bluff they need to be prepared for the consequences at the box office. Solo has already flopped thanks to fan disappointment. Not sure it's a gamble I would want to play if I ran disney.

 

[Bambooza]

Lol it seems there is a team still wanting to remake the Last Jedi

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-remake-the-last-jedi-crew-are-still-serious-about-fixing-star-wars/

 

[maynard]

maybe it's not a question of good or bad writing, but of whether film is the appropriate medium for the story

I am convinced that the best medium for telling complex, layered stories is not movies but episodic TV

who is confused about what has happened, or its meaning, in Game of Thrones?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

That's true, but you know Lucas did spend a bundle hoping to create a live action SW TV series, and found he just couldn't. I recall reading an interview with him in 2006 in Wired magazine where he was talking about staffing the new ranch that had been The Presidio. He bought the place on super-long lease and was staffing it to man what was at the time the most powerful computer network in the world, all so they could create sets and ships digitally and shoot the entire series on green screen; same as he did with Revenge of the Sith. That was the only way he could find to create live action TV that would not break the bank.

As it turned out, it broke the bank anyway. There is just so much you can spend on TV and he was way over the mark. C'est domage, since you're right, we would have enjoyed these stories in much more detail were they presented in serialized TV fashion.

 

[maynard]

...all so they could create sets and ships digitally and shoot the entire series on green screen...As it turned out, it broke the bank anyway...

alas, he was ahead of his time

what most people don't realise is that CR has used funding from us gamers to build out exactly that digital content creation system and make it available to anyone with a story to tell (for a piece of the action)

the PU we know and the tools it's built with will be the foundation of an intellectual property empire that will dwarf Star Citizen

you heard it here first

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Are the modeling tools used for the ships unique to SC, or are they using commercially available CAD software or some such?

 

[Bambooza]

Are the modeling tools used for the ships unique to SC, or are they using commercially available CAD software or some such?

They look to be using industry standards like ZBrush, Maya and Bender.

 

[maynard]

Are the modeling tools used for the ships unique to SC, or are they using commercially available CAD software or some such?

AFAIK they're using commercial tools to build individual assets but the procedural generation, NPC AI, the physics and persistence engines, and all the glue that binds everything together will make for a compelling package that you would need $300 million and seven or eight years to match