Missile Update

Shadow Reaper

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Vid from 2 years ago shows Thunderbolt III missiles one-shotting Blades on every launch. Is that still true? How are players doing evading S3 missiles?
 

BUTUZ

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No they nerfed larger missiles to heck.
 

Montoya

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Missiles were the meta, but now that we have gimbal assist, we can hit moving targets without using missiles.

Still, I would like to see a missile boat, kinda like the Freenlancer MIS, but double that! :D
 
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ColdDog

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Missiles are a funny thing... think about ammo... 50 cal does more damage than 7.62 does more damage than 5.56 does more damage than 9mm, so on. So, my point is it should be realistic. If a large missile manages to hit a aurora, ie, 50 cal (equiv missile), that aurora should bite the dust or at least be "severely" damaged.

If you get shot in the leg with a .22 then you can fight on. If you get shot in the leg with a .50 cal, you'll be missing a leg.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Okay so are the missiles not one-shotting because of reduced damage, or are the S3s not hitting as often as they used to?

The calculators show missile damage that ought to require most small targets to get hit twice by any S3 missile. So is it a fair bet that 2 S3 missiles will kill most small targets, or do they not usually hit, or is 2 not enough?

I am not interested in S1 and S2 missiles. I am curious if launching 2 S3s at a time ought to remove most threats. I could live with that.
 

ColdDog

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are the S3s not hitting as often as they used to?
Good question. I would think an s5 should have the maneuverability of a C-17... so a s3 should have a maneuverability of a C-130... and finally, a s1 should have the maneuverability of a F-35.

Sometimes, reality does not make it into the game because everyone wants a mini-nuke, not a fight. Its not like we do not have real data on many missiles, not sure why CIG needs to fold to non-realistic views. In some cases a .22 round can do more damage than a 9 mm round when someone is hit in the head, because the .22 round bounces around inside the skull because it can't exit, making a smoothie of that organ.
 

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Man when big ship to ship action becomes a reality, I'll love to see small ships be able to effectively take up a Point Defense role. Imagine you're in an Idris and you've had a couple of big enemy torpedoes launched your way.....your only defense (besides your turrets) are your fighter escorts. It'll be great if the escorts can turn around and throw lead at a torpedo/missile barrage before it hits you.
 

maynard

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Man when big ship to ship action becomes a reality, I'll love to see small ships be able to effectively take up a Point Defense role. Imagine you're in an Idris and you've had a couple of big enemy torpedoes launched your way.....your only defense (besides your turrets) are your fighter escorts. It'll be great if the escorts can turn around and throw lead at a torpedo/missile barrage before it hits you.
I endorse this product or service
 

Cugino83

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Man when big ship to ship action becomes a reality, I'll love to see small ships be able to effectively take up a Point Defense role. Imagine you're in an Idris and you've had a couple of big enemy torpedoes launched your way.....your only defense (besides your turrets) are your fighter escorts. It'll be great if the escorts can turn around and throw lead at a torpedo/missile barrage before it hits you.
I think the main role of the Hammerhead in a fleet is that... we just have the enviroments ot test it out yet...
 

BUTUZ

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I am not interested in S1 and S2 missiles. I am curious if launching 2 S3s at a time ought to remove most threats. I could live with that.
You should be! These are the meta now. Why fit 2xS3 on your mount when you can fit 4xS1 and get more overall firepower?

I was in my van guard the other day and a sabre attacked me - spammed me with what must have been 8 missiles, must have been S1? Almost took my shields down! Luckily my shields regenerated from 10% before he could get much gunfire on me and I was able to pick him off.

Missiles can be dangerous in a dogfight especially lots of smaller ones.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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The larger ones are supposed to be harder to shake, and they fly faster and farther. I like the stats on S3, just I want to know how effective they are. I'm also a Vanguard guy and it is a key advantage that most dogfighters can't carry any S3 missiles. A Vanguard can carry 8, so that's 4 small fighters down if you can depend upon hits.
 

Bambooza

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The larger ones are supposed to be harder to shake, and they fly faster and farther. I like the stats on S3, just I want to know how effective they are. I'm also a Vanguard guy and it is a key advantage that most dogfighters can't carry any S3 missiles. A Vanguard can carry 8, so that's 4 small fighters down if you can depend upon hits.

Right now missiles significantly depend on the health of the server and how long its been up. Even if the target doesn't use countermeasures and flies in a straight line they seem to miss more often then hit the target. Strafing left or right or even flying decoupled seems to foil the missile AI ability to track the target. Then there is countermeasures which sometimes work and other times it's like they had no effect.

With ships like the Freelancer MIS and Constellation Andromeda, I've found it far more effective to just use the gimbaled weapons to take out targets as long as you stay at the correct distance away from the garget due to the weapons convergence distance. I do hope they fix missiles soon but the past few patches it seems like its a low priority much like turrets.
 

Ayeteeone

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The larger ones are supposed to be harder to shake, and they fly faster and farther. I like the stats on S3, just I want to know how effective they are. I'm also a Vanguard guy and it is a key advantage that most dogfighters can't carry any S3 missiles. A Vanguard can carry 8, so that's 4 small fighters down if you can depend upon hits.
No.. the smaller it is, the higher its maneuverability and the shorter it's range. With the existing combination of warhead values and hit rates, the S1 might actually be doing more for you. It definitely gives you more chances to actually do damage. StarcitizenDB seems to be down so I am unable to verify numbers atm.

There was a time in the past when 2 size 3 was the 'secret' for getting through Pirate Swarm as they were a guaranteed kill. For PvP it's less clear but I'm still favoring Size 1 and 2 for the higher hit potential.

CIG is actively working to bring combat closer. One can legit question the wisdom of this from several perspectives including pacing and the actual experience of maneuvering in space. Too slow and it becomes nothing more than a dps fight. Too close and the more agile ship pretty much always wins. Too much of this philosophy, and we lose what little variation there is in ship combat abilities even now.

I already hate the overarching idea that if its not a fighter, it's undergunned so as to intentionally be a target. Two great examples are the Prospector and Mole. The Prospector at least puts up a front, with 2 gimbaled guns and lots of power to overclock. The guns on the Mole look like "Oh shit. We forgot to put weapons on, let's tack them next to the cockpit so the pilot can see the flashes". It SHOULD have imo at least a small remote turret on top for the co-pilot seat.

As @Bambooza pointed out, missiles and countermeasures rely heavily on the server. Tick rates are still not up to the 30fps target, so until that is true it will be impossible for CIG to balance properly, or us to say with any certainty what might work best.

@Shadow Reaper I do want to express appreciation for what you are sharing lately! Evaluating how the concepts and related values work together is my idea of fun.. and I've had a 'leetle bit of professional military experience at it.

If you are not already familiar, an excellent read for you would be Fleet Tactics and Naval Operations 3rd Ed. by Capt. Wayne P Hughes, USN (Ret). He brought an emphasis on quantifiable evaluation into the War College and quite literally changed how the Navy thought about doing it's job.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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@Shadow Reaper I do want to express appreciation for what you are sharing lately! Evaluating how the concepts and related values work together is my idea of fun.. and I've had a 'leetle bit of professional military experience at it.

If you are not already familiar, an excellent read for you would be Fleet Tactics and Naval Operations 3rd Ed. by Capt. Wayne P Hughes, USN (Ret). He brought an emphasis on quantifiable evaluation into the War College and quite literally changed how the Navy thought about doing it's job.
That's very kind of you. I am familiar with Hughes Six Cornerstones for fleet tactics, and the seventh he developed for the Marines. What I am really after are similar principles that apply to SC, given what we already know. They're quite different from what Hughes recommends because of the various game dynamics.

So for instance, we know there will be limits to the number of ships and players allowed into an instance. Victory for TEST might be obtained simply by using superior numbers to fill an instance with replacement ships from a reserve the first moment a ship dies. That's unromantic, but given how the servers operate, could be a deciding factor and if we don't plan for it and an oppnentn does, we could easily lose against far inferior forces.

Just one example of a principle specific to SC tactics. There are many more. I evaluate these regularly and have for years.
 
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DarthMunkee

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Missiles were the meta, but now that we have gimbal assist, we can hit moving targets without using missiles.

Still, I would like to see a missile boat, kinda like the Freenlancer MIS, but double that! :D
I want to see this too. And also a proper gunboat, small and just covered in guns. Actually, you know what would be even better? Just a giant gun you can fly, like a ship version of Megatron.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I want to see this too. And also a proper gunboat, small and just covered in guns. Actually, you know what would be even better? Just a giant gun you can fly. . .
The Polaris has about twice the S3 missile capacity of the MIS, the HH is certainly a bristling gunboat and the Ares is a flying big-ass gun. Seems you're getting what you want.
 
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BUTUZ

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The Polaris has about twice the S3 missile capacity of the MIS, the HH is certainly a bristling gunboat and the Ares is a flying big-ass gun. Seems you're getting what you want.
He was talking about, all three in the same ship!
 
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