New to the whole Joystick thing...

[zeddie]

So I have just recently bought (last week) a Logitech Extreme 3D joystick. I picked this, because it's the cheapest here in Canada... T16000M(?) costs about $60, where the Extreme 3D was "on sale" for $30, and it has pretty decent reviews, so I decided on it. The one big complaint would be that my hand seems to be a bit too small for it... I need to stretch my thumb for the hat switch, and I cant pull the trigger, when I rest my palm on the bottom, and it feels bulky when gripped.

I've been pondering for a while if I should get one or not, and it's been years of flight sims and space sims that I've been playing with mouse + keyboard (flight = mostly keyboard only, where War Thunder is truly where I started using KB + Mouse) and I became quite good at them.

The huge advantage is the ease of the movement, and the fast reflex of it all, as all you need to do is move your finger slightly to change direction. It worked super well for games like HAWX or Ace Combat but it really prevented me from playing more hardcore simulators like Lock-On or DCS series.

In between, I've also tried using my Xbox360 gamepad but with little success. I still found the WSAD + arrow keys the best control method in most flight games.

That is until War Thunder. Its mouse aiming system completely changed the gameplay from keyboard only controls. It is accurate, fast, and to be frank, coming from FPS type controls, quite intuitive. Problem is, it's too easy.

First game I hopped onto with my Extreme 3D Pro was Elite: Dangerous. It's the one I've been playing the most in the past week, and I just thought about flying with it. It did go pretty well. I did switch around the keyboard controls for strafing and the switch took a few crashes to get used to, but it flies pretty well.

That is, until I booted up Arena Commander. OH the HORROR! I've of course tried Vanduul Swarm first, as I don't want to be the flying target who can't hit anything in the actual match, but it didn't go well at all. I don't think I even managed to get past the first wave! (using my Avenger... for the first time, granted)

As soon as I went back to mouse aiming, 5 consecutive waves were cleared without much trouble. (I had an easier time with my Hornet Stealth a few days prior with mouse) It was a LOT more responsive than on Elite, and I was just swaying all over the place. I can't aim, I can't fly, and I can't do anything with it.

Decided to try with Ace Combat later, as that's a traditional "flight" game (without strafing) but same thing pretty much. Controls are too responsive, and is completely unstable.

I've yet to try it in simulation mode on War Thunder, as the game hasn't been booted for a long time, and it refuses to patch. Maybe try it later today to see how it goes.

My conclusion thus far is that I can't for the life of me fly using a Joystick in a game that's just way too jittery and fast paced (like Ace Combat or Arena Commander) but I do pretty well in a slower paced, lower response Elite: Dangerous. I feel like this is me learning mouse aiming in FPS all over again. (I was horrible at Unreal Tournament, but got better as years went by, but am still lagging behind many players with great twitch reflexes, but I can be about average)

What have your experiences been like after switching to a Joystick or HOTAS for the first time? Long learning curve? Where did you practice/learn?

 

[Dorian Grey]

I'll let you know soon. I expect mine to arrive today .....

 

[Dygon]

I'm playing with xbox controller and I find that to be very comfortable. I don't see what possible advantage a joystick could give you over a controller?

 

[Dorian Grey]

IMMERSION !!

 

[Montoya]

@rtmoose has a long write up about this recently.

The bottom line is that keyboard and mouse, as it works right now, is superior in AC.

If you are looking to be accurate, you can't beat mouse and keyboard with a joystick.

For me, dogfighting will probably not be the focus of my game play in SC. While I will indulge in combat, I put more emphasis on enjoying the game than being concerned about my K/D.

If the stats are important to you, then stick with mouse. If you want to have fun, then joystick.

 

[CGPepper]

Welcome to the party. I've even started a "separation of aim and flight" protest on the forums with green banners just before lag pips were introduced.

But basically, yes its hard. And no u'll never master joysticks to the same level as what you get with M/K right now. Its literally impossible by design. Ive been struggling with this since june 1st, when AC 0.01 was released
First of all, flying with a joystick requires a very different mindset. Like, if i need to aim to the right 5m and you yaw, your ship turns 2.5 to the right. Your mouse reflex will tell you to yaw harder, but you cant, because then you'll overshoot. Instead you have to be patient and yaw less so you'll ease out of the other 2.5m
Secondly, you need to develop muscle memory. The absolute best way to develop it is doing racing laps. As there is no lap limit in private matches, you have all the time in the world to practice your skill. You kinda want a fast ship for this (350r, gamma, m50) or at least 300i or avenger.
Free up an hour of your time, boot up the easiest racing map in dronesim, and just do laps. First you'll have trouble fitting through the rights, then you'll only crash every second turn, then you'll manage to only crash once or twice a lap, then you'll be trying to finish multiple laps without crashing at all. Now it will start to feel too easy. You can start chasing after record times, discovering shortcuts, flying upside down/backwards/in3rdPerson. After that you should do at least 10 laps, 2-3 times a week to keep the reflexes. Do it before going to sleep or with the morning coffee
This is how i was learning it a while back (im coupling and dec. while setting the circle in the center that shows ship's directional vector)

Lastly, here is where more expensive joysticks shine. You need to find a way to make small movements. Something like a warthog allows you to do tiny movements with great precision, x55 allow you to place stiffer springs to do the exact same thing. With cheaper sticks you can try setting a higher exponent/factor for the sensitivity (not sensitivity itself!) to get greater control around the center

Edit: you can also add a mouse to your setup/TrackIr/Oculus [for the future]

 

[zeddie]

hmm thanks CGPepper.

Racing did come through my mind when I went for the Joystick as well. (I own both M50 and 350R) as I did find it pretty hard with a mouse and keyboard (as opposed to combat) especially on the 350R. The main difference between combat and racing I think is the way you control your ship. In combat, the main thing is where you're aiming, and in a big open space, where your ship is, or how it's actually moving is of less importance, but in Racing that's what really matters, and slight adjustment in Aim won't change the path you're moving through too much.

Oh and another thing Star Citizen really brings to the table is the couple/decouple (or even in Elite, Assist On/Off modes)... haven't really played with those much.

Great Video btw!

 

[CGPepper]

It doesnt rlly matter what the purpose is, doing 10 laps a day/week will develop muscle memory for controlling your ship that will help you with aiming/landing/asteroiding/docking/formationFlying etc After a while, you'll be feeling the turns before they take place

 

[zeddie]

It doesnt rlly matter what the purpose is, doing 10 laps a day/week will develop muscle memory for controlling your ship that will help you with aiming/landing/asteroiding/docking/formationFlying etc After a while, you'll be feeling the turns before they take place

ah another question... I noticed Star Citizen has the default binding of Yaw to the X-axis on the Joystick... do you fly like that? or did you switch it to the more standard (common) Roll?

 

[CGPepper]

You wont be able to aim as quickly if you roll and pitch all the time like a plane in atmosphere
You could put yaw on the pedals and still fly yaw over roll, but whats the point?

 

[zeddie]

no it's just a habit that when you rotate the stick sideways, your craft rolls. it's been the same for every single flight game there has been in my experience, and it's just an extra thing to get used to whenever I switch from one game to the other.

The Extreme 3D also has the twist axis (Z) for Yaw usually, so if X is yaw, roll would then go to the Twist, which really isn't something I can get the hang of.

Of course, more practice is needed. The problem, again, is how it's the opposite of every other game. Unless I'm going to be spending a long time playing nothing but Star Citizen, I don't see how switching those 2 axis would work.

 

[CGPepper]

Twist wont work for yaw. 90% of the time you'll need to make a small adjustment in the x axis, and its just not accurate enough.
You could always rebind other games or learn two systems. it will always take you 10 minutes to adjust, but i bet that you wont even feel the difference after playing for an hour with either.

 

[zeddie]

I see what you mean. The whole space combat makes the behaviour of your craft completely different. With big thrusters, lateral movements are a lot easier and efficient, as opposed to traditional forward moving aerial vehicles.

In traditional non-space flight sims, it's bound to Yaw because it's the least sensitive of the controls, and when you turn, it's always faster to roll and pitch up. I think it's the most visually obvious with helicopters: the direction you tip your joystick will tip the aircraft in the same direction as well as twist, will rotate it sideways, so basically the motion is the exact same way as you move your stick.

That is how I see the joystick controls mainly.

 

[Shar Treuse]

Yeah, flight joysticks all seem to be made for very large-handed people. There's a raging thread or two about the economic efficiency/viability of joystick companies making three different sizes (as well as left and right handed versions) on the RSI forums.

Fortunately, you can configure a lot of settings to work however you want them to with most sticks, throttles, HOTAS systems and so on. Unfortunately it is often a real PITA (pain in the arse) to do so, though the more pricey systems occasionally come with decent control panel software. The Logi E3DP of course not being one of those.

I do agree though that you are better sticking with configurations appropriate to each game instead of trying to make them all work the same. Your brain and nervous system are far better at adapting than the hardware is.

 

[Overlord]

At the moment Mouse is superior but I am not so sure this will always be the case since SC, I believe, is looking to produce it's own Hotas. If they do it will be kind of hard to sell if the mouse is superior.