Petrolheads, SUV owners, I need your advice (car buying)

[Bambooza]

I have no specific "desire" to purchase a used car, but there are no sensible options for a new one with our income.

Spoiler: rant

Also, buying new is kinda stupid at the moment, most of the cars we would want, will lose over 50-70% of their value waaay sooner then I finish paying for it...

So true. The only downside to a used car is that you do not know how it was treated nor its service records.

I've been hesitant to suggest a minivan, but that is a good idea as well. Also a Toyota Sienna or a Honda Odyssey (both my brother and sister in law had the last one and they felt it was safe enough for their two kids to be driven around in...and they are VERY protective)

Honestly a lot of the new cross overs and SUV's are just minivans in different skins.

2: umm, nope. First of all, it's a minivan!!! You know what that word means for someone who actually likes cars? just nope. never. You're trolling me right now, right? :smile:

I feel the same way. There is a powerful stigma in regards to the minivan but I have to admit the inside creature comforts are pretty nice.

4WD feels good in snow, but it's deception. What you really need is front wheel drive for winter driving. If it snows where you are, take an informal survey of the number of 4WD vehicles in the ditch. You'll find there are proportionally way more than front wheel drive vehicles. There's another thing, unless they're heavy duty, or purpose built, the suspension of most 4WD vehicles is usually not very robust.

It is entertaining to count all the 4WD's of soccer mom's in the ditch after a small snow storm blankets the roads. Of course it doesn't match the brilliance of the pickups with the large mud tires and multiple inches of lift that have not only spun out but are now resting upside down in the ditch.

 

[Vavrik]

I was looking into diesels as that's what's available locally, especially in SUVs. I was convinced to avoid em for a lot of reasons, and non of them are that they are not sporty enough, although that is true as well.
With the relatively short trips we take, it's just not worth it. The only benefit to us, which is better fuel efficiency and slightly cheaper diesel price, is negligible compared to the cost of upkeep. I've done some calculations and it's just not worth it for us with this type of use (see spoiler). Also, dieselgate and EU diesel ban hysteria...

Gotcha. I agree. Actually I think a 2 liter diesel needs to be naturally aspirated and mounted in a boat.

But Dieselgate was a issue of ethics, not of diesel engines themselves. Generally the ethics of Volkswagon executives, but specifically for me it's what that incident says about the ethics of their software developers. It's not that diesel engines could not meet the emission standards. It was just cheaper for them to write program code "get around the problem" than it was to force the re-engineering of production vehicles.

 

[Bambooza]

write program code "get around the problem"

Wait whats wrong with this? I jest as I know your meaning but honestly code writing is all about getting around a problem.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

So true. The only downside to a used car is that you do not know how it was treated nor its service records.



Honestly a lot of the new cross overs and SUV's are just minivans in different skins.



I feel the same way. There is a powerful stigma in regards to the minivan but I have to admit the inside creature comforts are pretty nice.



It is entertaining to count all the 4WD's of soccer mom's in the ditch after a small snow storm blankets the roads. Of course it doesn't match the brilliance of the pickups with the large mud tires and multiple inches of lift that have not only spun out but are now resting upside down in the ditch.

Hahaha, I love watching the videos of all those SUVs and pickups sliding around while a hatchback using actual winter tires just passes the whole mess. Those kinda videos always pop up around the time it starts snowing in the US :D
You are right about the "skins", but in some cases, at least they put some sorta protective bits under the car if it's a SUV/crossover, and might even a few parts that can take a little bit more beating. Not always, ofc...

Gotcha. I agree. Actually I think a 2 liter diesel needs to be naturally aspirated and mounted in a boat.

But Dieselgate was a issue of ethics, not of diesel engines themselves. Generally the ethics of Volkswagon executives, but specifically for me it's what that incident says about the ethics of their software developers. It's not that diesel engines could not meet the emission standards. It was just cheaper for them to write program code "get around the problem" than it was to force the re-engineering of production vehicles.

I dunno about boats, although I quiet enjoyed the few times I've been in one. Few years ago when I first started thinking about getting a newer car, we joked around with getting a small boat instead :D Ofc, that would be really really stupid idea in a landlocked country, with only one decent sized lake around.

Agreed on the dieslgate. Clearly, as the updates to dieselgate cars proved it, they can match emission requirements, but it comes at a cost they didn't want to pay. They didn't just want money, they wanted aaaaall of the money. It was a dirty business decision, that came back to bite them.

 

[Bruce]

Hahaha, I love watching the videos of all those SUVs and pickups sliding around

frankly speaking - sometimes if the road isn't treated properly - it doesn't matter what tires one wear

View: https://youtu.be/L4BuFrruLRs

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Sorry to divert your attention away from all the juicy drama threads, but I have one last thing to ask:

When it comes to buying such old cars, knowing the history and owner of the car is half the battle. So, if you know of someone, whom you know took very good care of their car and wants to sell it, and it fits the specifications, please send me a PM! Thank you!

 

[Vavrik]

Wait whats wrong with this? I jest as I know your meaning but honestly code writing is all about getting around a problem.

Well it's about solving legitimate business problems, not enabling your employer to break the law. Put it in context. Some programmer(s) at Volkswagon were asked to write code that went something like this extremely simplified example:

IF(environment_test_mode) {
make_fake_test_results();
}

And they did. That caused erroneous test data during EPA and state testing of vehicles, and the approval to sell said vehicles. That is unethical, is illegal, and they knew it.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/volkswagen-senior-manager-pleads-guilty-connection-conspiracy-cheat-us-emissions-tests

I believe very strongly that this kind of behavior on the part of programmers, i.e. the lack of ethics, has led to death's in the general public. Not in this instance, and not yet in large numbers, but nevertheless, that may be simply a matter of the right circumstance. When it does happen, there will be hell to pay in the software development industry.

I believe it is only a matter of time before software development in general is a regulated industry. At the moment, we have the opportunity to be self regulating. The alternative is legislated regulation, and we don't want that.

 

[Bambooza]

Well it's about solving legitimate business problems, not enabling your employer to break the law. Put it in context. Some programmer(s) at Volkswagon were asked to write code that went something like this extremely simplified example:

Sorry was attempting at a little bit of dry humor.

I believe it is only a matter of time before software development in general is a regulated industry. At the moment, we have the opportunity to be self regulating. The alternative is legislated regulation, and we don't want that.

Regulation will honestly not solve much as it takes far to long for them to catch up. Take for instance your example of Volkswagon's modifying their car to perform differently when connected to a dynamo vs being out on the street, (Dirty Money on Netflix did a pretty good job of covering this case) and how long it took the regulation agencies to catch on after being told about it. After all developers are human with their own code of morality. Where one may object another will not blink an eye.

 

[Vavrik]

Sorry was attempting at a little bit of dry humor.

Gotcha. Nothing wrong with that.

Regulation will honestly not solve much as it takes far to long for them to catch up. Take for instance your example of Volkswagon's modifying their car to perform differently when connected to a dynamo vs being out on the street, (Dirty Money on Netflix did a pretty good job of covering this case) and how long it took the regulation agencies to catch on after being told about it. After all developers are human with their own code of morality. Where one may object another will not blink an eye.

Well I fully agree with that, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Most regulatory agencies were formed as the result of hindsight, and simply allow the Government to impose regulations, without legislation. "We'll fine you, and we don't even need to take you to court unless you ignore all kinds of notices." Companies often just see it as a risk, and the cost of doing business. That doesn't stop the Government from regulating stuff though.

 

[Bambooza]

Its like all those who say we shouldn't be arming robots and yet we have this.

Companies often just see it as a risk, and the cost of doing business. That doesn't stop the Government from regulating stuff though.

It is an interesting outcome as generally these companies can operate for years if not decades with out the regulations applying to them due to their large lobbyist ability. And even then the fine at the end only puts a small dent in the profits reaped.


I

 

[Bruce]

Its like all those who say we shouldn't be arming robots and yet we have this.

That guy isn't a robot .. it is just remotely controlled birdie :) ... well at least it is not more a robot than this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3724001/Feeling-lucky-Marines-test-machine-gun-wielding-robot-throw-grenades-drag-wounded-soldiers-safety.html

 

[Bambooza]

Yep. Well mostly the remote controlled birdy can still navigate somewhat on its own.

Love following the Darpa challenges.
https://www.darpa.mil/program/darpa-robotics-challenge

Of course you also end up with this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/03/19/uber-halts-autonomous-vehicle-testing-after-a-pedestrian-is-struck/?utm_term=.e8c44959ba84


All crashes are always the robots fault.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Umm...

Credit: https://twitter.com/Jalopnik/status/976182714486394882

 

[Sirus7264]

I didn't notice this thread until today and i wonder why didn't you mension buying from japan? Most japanese drivers throw their cars away after 5-10 years because cars are stupid cheap here. on standard you can get a car here in japan for about 1000-4000 usd in perfect condition. The car i recently bought for my wife has 27,000 KM and is a 2009(maybe 2008) toyota Raum which i got for 2,000 usd. Exporting cars from japan is a very huge thing here in japan so maybe take a look into it just make sure you check your laws to see how old the vehicle needs to be to be imported. Lastly which side is your steering wheel normaly at in your country?

 

[Bambooza]

I had to go look it up. Found this interesting link.

https://jalopnik.com/here-are-the-four-legal-ways-to-import-a-car-to-the-uni-1682067632

 

[Bruce]

Lastly which side is your steering wheel normaly at in your country?

unfortunately they are the same as most of the world :( ... I'm not aware of any other country besides UK and Japan that have steering wheel on the interesting side

 

[Lorddarthvik]

I didn't notice this thread until today and i wonder why didn't you mension buying from japan? Most japanese drivers throw their cars away after 5-10 years because cars are stupid cheap here. on standard you can get a car here in japan for about 1000-4000 usd in perfect condition. The car i recently bought for my wife has 27,000 KM and is a 2009(maybe 2008) toyota Raum which i got for 2,000 usd. Exporting cars from japan is a very huge thing here in japan so maybe take a look into it just make sure you check your laws to see how old the vehicle needs to be to be imported. Lastly which side is your steering wheel normaly at in your country?

Ooooh, believe me, I would love to get something from Japan! I just don't have a "guy" for it, so costs are prohibitive, and we drive on the other side.
As we're in a left hand drive country, neither the wife (main user of the car in question) and parents (partly funding) would never agree to a right hand drive car. I gotta agree with them on this somewhat, as it's a pain in the ass in the city, when you can't see the oncoming lane and gotta go around a bus or a car illegally parked in the middle of the lane, which happens constantly.
I've had the pleasure of driving an imported JDM WRX STi for a couple of weeks, and while I loved it, it was kinda annoying sometimes. The things I imagined would be hard about driving a RHD car were the easy parts. Getting used to changing gears with my left hand took like 10 seconds, while steering with my right hand was really relaxing as I'm right handed, but I kept banging my right elbow on the door as I forgot it was there lol. With the blinkers/wipers not being mirrored, it was kinda strange, sometimes I had to force myself to use the same hands for the same things I always do, and not mirror it lol. Checking mirrors was not an issue, and sitting closer to the side of the road made it feel safer somehow, unless I had to go around the damn buses. (they don't always have bus bays to stop in, so you gotta overtake em by crossing over, and you can't see anything front he front right seat of course)
If I could go for a right hand drive car, I would have done so already, as importing cars from the UK is a non-issue, and it's also cheap. I see several rhd cars with local registration/plates driving around these days, and it is perfectly legal. But I just can't, for the above mentioned reasons.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

unfortunately they are the same as most of the world :( ... I'm not aware of any other country besides UK and Japan that have steering wheel on the interesting side

There are quiet a few big ones, like Australia and New Zealand. Hong Kong maybe? South Africa also I think.
I seem to recall that India is among them, going with the ex-british-colony-theme of rhd countries, but last time I've seen some car show from India, it was mostly Ganesha-hand drive (4 hands), a.k.a. wherever the hell you want / can.
Also some islands like Jamaica and such? I'm not sure about those, and with probably less then 30 cars / island nation and mostly narrow dirt roads, I'm not sure it matters all that much.

 

[Bruce]

Oh well .. I never ever made it to Australia despite of having some good friends in there :( , guess you are right

 

[Sirus7264]

unfortunately they are the same as most of the world :( ... I'm not aware of any other country besides UK and Japan that have steering wheel on the interesting side

Not all cars here in japan are Right hand cars ive seen plenty on the exporting cars industry that are right handed such as explorers and so forth(how they got here in the first place i have no idea). The only exporter i know in person who use to work with me back in the day only sells 15 year old skyline GTRs back to the states. I can try to find some sites for you later when i get some time ive had my hands full trying to get ready for renovation(these chinese companies on alibaba are really aggressive to get sales)