Pirate Swarm - ship toughness

Mastersan

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Mastersan
Hi All,

Was playing Pirate Swarm today and noticed that enemy Gladius ships appear to be super tough and can tank tons of damage. It's much quicker to destroy an enemy Vanguard, than enemy Gladius. A bug?
(Note: used guns only, no missiles).

Also, Super Hornet's ability to survive looks impressive - got half a ship left (cockpit, dorsal turret and engine; no wings, tail, etc.) and still fighting, all systems working fine. Normal Hornet doesn't seem to be able to do this, while they are often considered the same, just an extra seat for Super. Just luck?

In addition, from your experience, are there any other ships that can survive like that?

Thanks!

:beers:
 

DarthMunkee

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Shoot the engines off the Cutlass and Constellation pirates and they spin away until you can deal with the smaller ones. Then you can destroy the big targets at your leisure.
What conversation are you in the middle of?

Back to the original question, were you using ballistic or energy weapons? I've found the Gladius goes down pretty quick to ballistics once you get through the shield.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Super Hornet's ability to survive looks impressive - got half a ship left (cockpit, dorsal turret and engine; no wings, tail, etc.) and still fighting, all systems working fine. Normal Hornet doesn't seem to be able to do this. . .
The Hull tab is gone from the last components spreadsheet, so we can't refer, but IIRC, the only difference between the hull on the Hornets and that of the SH was the extra 100 HP of the turret itself. If you are being hit there you basically can take one extra hit, but you will lose your top weapons. The Hull tab is gone but you can still see the HP count if you look at the turrets tab here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11B81QpGLgc2GeFsfLnVQLxGrqIfhKDKW1BiZ44E2HV8/edit#gid=377495337
 

Takeiteasy

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I lost the wings on my Buccaneer and it looked like a small Herald, it was amusing :)

As long as you got some thrusters on the hull it's possible to fly it, just not in atmosphere I don't think. Would be like a flying bullet into the ground haha.

Kinda like Montoya most days.
 

Mastersan

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Back to the original question, were you using ballistic or energy weapons? I've found the Gladius goes down pretty quick to ballistics once you get through the shield.
I've been using Super Hornet default loadout - all energy weapons: 4 badger repeaters (size 2) and 2 bulldog repeaters (size 1). Interestingly, tried doing the same flying Sabre with 4 Panther repeaters (size 3) - same issue. However, Sabre missiles seem to one-shot Gladius.
 
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Mastersan

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The Hull tab is gone from the last components spreadsheet, so we can't refer, but IIRC, the only difference between the hull on the Hornets and that of the SH was the extra 100 HP of the turret itself. If you are being hit there you basically can take one extra hit, but you will lose your top weapons. The Hull tab is gone but you can still see the HP count if you look at the turrets tab here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11B81QpGLgc2GeFsfLnVQLxGrqIfhKDKW1BiZ44E2HV8/edit#gid=377495337
Thanks for the link, very useful and very interesting.

So, while the hull tab is not there, there is "hp" tab, which says that SH has 1850 HP more (7975 vs 6100), mainly in the nose (1800 vs 1000), body and wings are still stronger than of a Hornet, and the remaining parts are the same.

Also, SH shield appears to play a highly significant role in it's surviveability. Not only SH has a larger shield that also regenerates faster (2400 vs 2000 shield health and 110 vs 100 regen), but it's a different shield type: Quadrant with 4 sides @ 600 per side vs FrontBack with front and back @ 1000 for Hornet. SH shield also has higher absorption rates for energy and physical damage. Also, if my assumption is correct, when you are maximising one shield side, you take 50% off other shield sides and adding those to the front. So, if you are maximising the front shield for head on engagement, it would be 600 + 3 x 600/2 = 600 + 900 = 1500 for SH, and 1000 + 1000/2 = 1500 for Hornet. The same, BUT, if damaged the transfer rate is 48 * 3 (other shields) = 144 per second for SH vs 48 per second for Hornet. Transfer + regen makes it 254 per second vs 148, which is full regen in 5.9 seconds vs 10 and still 3 shield pools ready for trasnsfer. That's likely why I noticed the maxed front shield almost never goes down on SH, and if damaged, regenerates very fast, unlike the Hornet's. AND you've got each of 3 remaining shields regenerating independently if damaged at 110 per second, which is 330 per second if all 3 are damaged vs only 100 for Hornet, if the ship rear is damaged from 3 directions.

Interestingly, Sabre's shield is much like of the SH one, but weaker and emitting less, thus lowering the signature (how could I not compare the percieved direct competitors). :grinning:
 

Shadow Reaper

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So, while the hull tab is not there, there is "hp" tab, which says that SH has 1850 HP more (7975 vs 6100), mainly in the nose (1800 vs 1000), body and wings are still stronger than of a Hornet, and the remaining parts are the same.
Ah, so really it is just I was looking for the wrong thing. Glad you found it.

So there is a large difference! Does anyone know if we will ever be able to apply the Ghost Hornet Void Armor to other ships as once promised? I am still interested in a multi-mission fighter that I can swap out components according to any particular need, and the Hornet really is designed for this. If I can put the Tracker and Ghost gear onto the SH, and replace the reactor with smaller, then I would settle for just the SH. Shields can be switched on after Ghost engagements or replaced with smaller according to the mission.

I had been thinking of doing something similar with the Hurricane, but I am still disappointed they took the pair of S4 mounts off. I can't see why anyone would buy it the way it is.

So with the SH, you can actually load 6X MVSA and 2X Jokers or Bulldogs if you choose? And the reactor is enough to power an all energy loadout? And likewise if you want a low power high hurt loadout you can put 6X Tarantual, 2X Longsword on?
 

Mastersan

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Ah, so really it is just I was looking for the wrong thing. Glad you found it.

So there is a large difference! Does anyone know if we will ever be able to apply the Ghost Hornet Void Armor to other ships as once promised? I am still interested in a multi-mission fighter that I can swap out components according to any particular need, and the Hornet really is designed for this. If I can put the Tracker and Ghost gear onto the SH, and replace the reactor with smaller, then I would settle for just the SH. Shields can be switched on after Ghost engagements or replaced with smaller according to the mission.

I had been thinking of doing something similar with the Hurricane, but I am still disappointed they took the pair of S4 mounts off. I can't see why anyone would buy it the way it is.

So with the SH, you can actually load 6X MVSA and 2X Jokers or Bulldogs if you choose? And the reactor is enough to power an all energy loadout? And likewise if you want a low power high hurt loadout you can put 6X Tarantual, 2X Longsword on?
Yes, the difference is quite significant, plus the shield.

I've heard one of YouTube channels said you will be able to install/swap all components like turrets, armor, etc. between all Hornets. So this may mean that you could potentially apply Void Armor to SH, but I guess we won't know until the release.

For weapons - my understanding is that as long as the mount allows, you can install any weapon. I'm not sure if you can put 6 size 2 weapons and 2 size 1. But you could probably do 5 gimbaled size 2 weapons, like 5 Tarantulas or 5 Tigerstreiks (do more dps than Tarantula, but shorter range and slower projectile speed).
 

Shadow Reaper

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From the vids seems 1400 is too slow. 1700 is much easier to hit targets in flight with. Also I think Marcsand2 has said he doesn't like the slower weapons for the same reasons. The thing you can't get around with S2 weapons is the crappy <3k range, which places you at the mercy of anything sniping with larger weapons.

Hey, this nerf on the S4 weapons speeds is new. . .this is a big deal. And what is with this S5 MXOX Laser Gatling with weapon speeds so much higher than anything else we have seen? Can that even be a real thing?
 

Mastersan

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From the vids seems 1400 is too slow. 1700 is much easier to hit targets in flight with. Also I think Marcsand2 has said he doesn't like the slower weapons for the same reasons. The thing you can't get around with S2 weapons is the crappy <3k range, which places you at the mercy of anything sniping with larger weapons.

Hey, this nerf on the S4 weapons speeds is new. . .this is a big deal. And what is with this S5 MXOX Laser Gatling with weapon speeds so much higher than anything else we have seen? Can that even be a real thing?
Yes, the faster the projectile speed, the easier to hit, especially in a dynamic dogfight. Although I'm not sure if it's a problem with S2 weapons, as you would anyway use them in a short range. Otherwise, the ship you will be flying is likely to be engaging in close quarters battle.

For example, the default loadout for Super Hornet has 2 M4A laser cannons with approx 2.5km range, and Badger+Bulldog repeaters with 1.5-1.7 km range. I'd say the average effective range against a very agile target (which is the most likely engagement you will be in) is about 300-800m. I've recorded a short video of Pirate Swarm. It may be some noob flying/fighting, but you will see that when I try firing M4As from 2.5 km - it's almost no use, but it's 300-800m when you get the most hits.

The situation changes with a different fight type, map and opponents. If it's not an asteroid field, and your enemy is large, like SH vs Vanguard outside of asteroid field - then I find M4A quite useful at a greater distance. However, at the same time I don't want to go that far away, since I will lose my advantage in maneuverability, allowing me to stay in Vanguard's blind zone. If the target is something like M50, then at 1.5km you can't even see it. The target rectangle is there, but the enemy ship is so small, that you almost can't hit it, except by chance.

So, size 2-3 weapons to me is quite adequate for smaller ships.

This is quite different for a larger ship. When I fly a connie and use 4x M6A with 5.6km range, I can hit small targets like Aurora from that distance, but that's likely because I've got 4 beams traveling towards the centre of my aim mark. But these ships are not very effective at short range, so short range weapons may not work very well. For example I tried 4x Apocalypse Arms Revenant Ballistic Gatlings, and while those have great dps, the range is only 1.5km, so these appeared useless on a connie to me. Long range worked much better. But if I had those 4 Gatlings on a SH, it would be perfect, but overpower.

The MXOX Laser Gatling looks odd. The range and damage per projectile is nothing for a weapon if it's size. But the projectile speed and rate of fire is very high. Although, it may not be very useful anyway, as at <2km this Gatling may not be a very effective weapon, like the Apocalypse Arms Revenant Ballistic Gatling above. If you are using M7A with the same dps and 6.3km range on a larger ship, like a connie (fixed mount), and your opponent is using this Gatling with <2km range, then by the time they can hit you, likely they would be gone, since a ship of this size is hard to miss, and it can't evade very well.

And here is my Super Hornet video. I think it would be very difficult to snipe from large distances in this kind of fight. Also ,even if someone tries, a target like a SH will be so tiny from 2+km range, and anything less SH can close in a matter of 5 seconds, when it's already a dynamic dogfight. You can usually see this scenario at about waive 10+ of Pirate Swarm where Vanguards start to appear. They have big guns and try to snipe you, but as soon as you evade and get close, they are almost defenseless (I don't have this in my video).

 
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Shadow Reaper

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. . .it's 300-800m when you get the most hits.
I have noted this for a long time. It doesn't even require jousting to note that most hits do happen pretty close, but that is the nature of dog-fighting as opposed to fighting strategically the way modern fighter aircraft are designed. The new F-35 is a crappy dog-fighter. It's wing loading is so high that it skids though turns like a drunk on a sleigh. Thing is it doesn't need to dogfight. It just needs to get into range to launch missiles and then fly away. So if that's your intention, you can get away with bigger, heavier birds like the Vanguard, and the chin gun just becomes a nice sniping tool, especially against big targets.

The fact most hits happen 300-800m has always impressed me that the Sabre loaded with 4 Pyros is a very potent combo. It basically one-shots everything in swarm, but you have to be at 600m or less. If you would normally be at 800m or less, this is not much accommodation.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYDjVMVL5FI
 
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