For those of you that have had a chance to take the redeemer for a spin, I would love to hear your thoughts on it as a bounty hunter / PVE combat ship?
I know it’s not for a solo player and its for multicrew…
Regardless! Would you recommend this or the warden for a solo pve combat ship? Why that ship over the other?
The redeemer can be summed up in one word, BEAST !!!!!
We tried it yesterday, with the Ares with Terada guys, I just fall in love with that ship. This will be my new daily PVE ship (with the Ares ION).
As a pilot you have access to 4 guns, which size are bigger than the one available on any Vanguard (2 S4 and 2 S3), since you can also control the front S3 turret.
The 2 dual S5 manned turrets are shredding anything really, when they focus fire it is around 8.5k dps !
It is a heavier ship than the Vanguard to control, it is felt in the turn, and the Z axis especially. But there is no ghost inertia like on the Connie.
The HP is great, and also 2 S3 shields ! You do not need to worry too much vs small fighters in a fight, the 2 dual S3 guns are doing their close defense job.
The redeemer can be summed up in one word, BEAST !!!!!
We tried it yesterday, with the Ares with Terada guys, I just fall in love with that ship. This will be my new daily PVE ship (with the Ares ION).
As a pilot you have access to 4 guns, which size are bigger than the one available on any Vanguard (2 S4 and 2 S3), since you can also control the front S3 turret.
The 2 dual S5 manned turrets are shredding anything really, when they focus fire it is around 8.5k dps !
It is a heavier ship than the Vanguard to control, it is felt in the turn, and the Z axis especially. But there is no ghost inertia like on the Connie.
The HP is great, and also 2 S3 shields ! You do not need to worry too much vs small fighters in a fight, the 2 dual S3 guns are doing their close defense job.
One would think but at the moment the Redeemer is hitting everything hard and flys quick. I have a feeling it's going to have its stats adjusted hard in the next few days as it's such a beast with the tankiness of its shields, and while not as maneuverable as a Gladius or Arrow it's still able to keep up with ships like the Hornet, Cutlass, and Vanguard while significantly outclassing them in shields and guns.
@Bambooza@vahadar agreed, this ship is BEASTLY
I don't know how it will be adjusted, but do expect something to change.
@Pippen if you can't grab one for yourself, grab one of us.. the fun meter pegs in this ship! EDIT: To your original question, the Warden, or any Vanguard, with the AD5B Gatling on the nose. The Redeemer is not a solo ship, and it would not be wise to acquire one expecting to use it that way.
@Shadow Reaper while I agree with you completely that 700m/s is too low, the guns shred everything. Just everything. The AD5B's are not precise in any way, the scatter has been set up to (once again) force closer range engagements. But the raw power of the ballistics is overwhelming, and it only takes a few hits to send a fighter pilot on his way to try the new medical gameplay.
Yogi's comments about the projectile velocity of the guns on the Hammerhead not being adequate is a public acknowledgement of an issue that's been understood for a while, and was brought up in testing right at the release of the changes.
I'm not at all sure why 1400 m/s is the ceiling.. maybe there is a server issue that limits ?? Hopefully they will raise velocities across the board, as it's not fun at all to chase a pip which is a significant portion of the screen away from the actual target.
So I JUST flew a borrowed 'Deemer and while I like it, I'll be honest that I liked it less than I was expecting/hoping to. It's REALLY pretty sluggish handling, and just can't turn enough to really keep fighters on target. This is probably OK for balance actually, but it's less solo-friendly than it's size led me to believe, and I really think you need to have at least 2 to make it work in combat. Seems pretty tanky too though: I went to refit at PO while doing some bounties and someone kept shooting at me constantly while I was doing so, but he didn't get much done while I was just landing/refueling/QTing away again pretty leisurely! So yeah, great daily for 2-3 friends, but don't think it's going to replace my Vanguard as my solo-daily. Might just apply that nice juicy MIS upgrade I'm sitting on though. . . :D
No, it's a design constraint. Remember originally, the SINGE-2 Tachyon cannons were instantaneous to target, and were nerfed back to 2,000mps because they always hit. Even at 2,000 they had a huge advantage over everything else--too huge.
I think they removed almost all the vatriety of projectile speed because they want to force combat into a smaller circle, and I have my own reasons to think this a bad choice. Even given that choice, they do eventually need to reintroduce the variety of velocities to the weapons.
No, it's a design constraint. Remember originally, the SINGE-2 Tachyon cannons were instantaneous to target, and were nerfed back to 2,000mps because they always hit. Even at 2,000 they had a huge advantage over everything else--too huge.
I think they removed almost all the vatriety of projectile speed because they want to force combat into a smaller circle, and I have my own reasons to think this a bad choice. Even given that choice, they do eventually need to reintroduce the variety of velocities to the weapons.
Agreed, but the Singe never worked reliably in game, and the server tick rate was the culprit normally pointed to. Some of the laser cannon had velocities that were much higher than current as well.
Right now I think that the overall nerf to everything (shields, guns, and ship agility specifically) was too hard of a hit. The only ship in which I find any joy in ship-to-ship combat is my Hawk.. anything larger than that feels like slogging through bogwater.
IMHO, if you're not going to put players in at least 4 seats on the Redeemer, you're better off with some sort of Vanguard mix--not necessarily the Warden. With 5 players, you can field at least 4 Vanguard. The Redeemer cannot manage 4 Vanguard at once. On the first slavo, 4 Harby's can launch 16 Thunderbolt III's and 4 Stalker V's for >155k points damage. Seconds later they can do it again. The Redeemer is easy to see at great distance and the Sentinel frame makes the Harby module impossible to see until it is way inside missile range. Scratch 1 Redeemer before it even sees its opponents.
The Redeemer is significantly slower than the Vanguard with far less maneuverability, less shielding, cannot be stealthed, presumably has less range but waiting to see on erkul, carries far less missile load, is vastly inferior in atmosphere, does not offer torps, EMP, nor assault teams. Think about the capabilities of 4 Sentinels all carrying the Harbinger module, with only the leader carrying a rear equipment operator in the turret who is locking targets and firing missiles and torps for all 4 Vanguard. No Redeemer can cope with nor compete with that. The Vanguard is still the ruling champion of death in SC, with competition only from the dread Eclipse.
However, if you are flying max firepower off something like the larger Kraken pads, then you're constrained by ship number and should choose 1 Redeemer over 1 Vanguard.
(***The Vanguard also rules in training players for small groups. As noted, Vanguards can be effective with most of their turrets empty, which means they can fly new members of a group without cost to that group. That's the best way for players to gain valuable experience. Conversely, even the smaller turrets on the Redeemer matter, because they protect a slower, less maneuverable ship.)
IMHO, if you're not going to put players in at least 4 seats on the Redeemer, you're better off with some sort of Vanguard mix--not necessarily the Warden. With 5 players, you can field at least 4 Vanguard. The Redeemer cannot manage 4 Vanguard at once. On the first slavo, 4 Harby's can launch 16 Thunderbolt III's and 4 Stalker V's for >155k points damage. Seconds later they can do it again. The Redeemer is easy to see at great distance and the Sentinel frame makes the Harby module impossible to see until it is way inside missile range. Scratch 1 Redeemer before it even sees its opponents.
The Redeemer is significantly slower than the Vanguard with far less maneuverability, less shielding, cannot be stealthed, presumably has less range but waiting to see on erkul, carries far less missile load, is vastly inferior in atmosphere, does not offer torps, EMP, nor assault teams. Think about the capabilities of 4 Sentinels all carrying the Harbinger module, with only the leader carrying a rear equipment operator in the turret who is locking targets and firing missiles and torps for all 4 Vanguard. No Redeemer can cope with nor compete with that. The Vanguard is still the ruling champion of death in SC, with competition only from the dread Eclipse.
S3 missiles are too easy to evade, without even using a single CM, even in a Redeemer as far as I tested on PTU.
S3 missiles and S5 torps can't be used in close range unless dumbfired, this means you have so much time to evade them. You will always know that you are missile locked, even from a stealthed ship.
During our CFT I am never worried with missiles, if you know how to handle them, even if multiple incoming from different direction, they do not usually represent a threat. With training you need no counter measure at all.
The Sentinel frame does not make the ship stealthy (yet). I am still very curious why you state that argument often, tests still show that the Sentinel is no stealth ship at all. Ok it is "stealthy" for its category with the proper components, but still can be seen miles away with the S2 radar from the Redeemer.
You probably made a mistake noting that the Redeemer has less shielding (if I read you right), it has actually S3 shields, compared to the Vanguard S2.
The Vanguard are great solo ships, but they are getting simply shredded right now in PTU in all the tests we have done vs manned Redeemers ;) The survival time is around 5-10seconds in a dogfight with competent turrets gunners.
In a turn battle, the Vanguard is loosing all the time currently Vs a Redeemer, because of the turrets of the Redeemer which can put around 11k DPS with at least 3 of them focused all the time. The Redeemer just need to strafe smartly, no need to fight with the nose unlike the Vanguard.
Also, dread Eclipse?
edit : there are also 4 jump seats on the Redeemer, forgot about that. It is no Hoplite, but with the crew at its station, you can still accomodate 4 marines.
I think that those 2 ships are so much on different scale, that it is not very interesting to try to compare them. Right now the Redeemer is a beast for a multi-crew ship, and I will choose a manned Redeemer 100% over a Vanguard, which was until now one my favorite multi-crew ship. The Vanguard is still one of my favorite solo ship, but the Ares Ion will probably takes its crown if it stays the way it is now in PTU, for my preferred ships solo classification (solo here = solo ship for PVE, not PvP, I would still take a Vanguard in PvP).
IMHO, if you're not going to put players in at least 4 seats on the Redeemer, you're better off with some sort of Vanguard mix--not necessarily the Warden. With 5 players, you can field at least 4 Vanguard. The Redeemer cannot manage 4 Vanguard at once. On the first slavo, 4 Harby's can launch 16 Thunderbolt III's and 4 Stalker V's for >155k points damage. Seconds later they can do it again. The Redeemer is easy to see at great distance and the Sentinel frame makes the Harby module impossible to see until it is way inside missile range. Scratch 1 Redeemer before it even sees its opponents.
The Redeemer is significantly slower than the Vanguard with far less maneuverability, less shielding, cannot be stealthed, presumably has less range but waiting to see on erkul, carries far less missile load, is vastly inferior in atmosphere, does not offer torps, EMP, nor assault teams. Think about the capabilities of 4 Sentinels all carrying the Harbinger module, with only the leader carrying a rear equipment operator in the turret who is locking targets and firing missiles and torps for all 4 Vanguard. No Redeemer can cope with nor compete with that. The Vanguard is still the ruling champion of death in SC, with competition only from the dread Eclipse.
However, if you are flying max firepower off something like the larger Kraken pads, then you're constrained by ship number and should choose 1 Redeemer over 1 Vanguard.
(***The Vanguard also rules in training players for small groups. As noted, Vanguards can be effective with most of their turrets empty, which means they can fly new members of a group without cost to that group. That's the best way for players to gain valuable experience. Conversely, even the smaller turrets on the Redeemer matter, because they protect a slower, less maneuverable ship.)
Spot on I agree with @Shadow Reaper 100%
There is no comparison Vanguard/Redeemer, Vanguard is a totally different type a ship.
Would be better to compare Redeemer with HH even there is a size difference they are more alike as they are both dependent on a full crewed ship to be fully operational.
Where any Vanguard version can be flown solo or with full crew and either way be seriously deadly, tho Sentinel as I seen is the one that is on top tight followed by Harbinger.
And a Vanguard allow you to have the modules from all Vanguard versions so you have several operational option in one ship.
I personally chose the Sentinel over any fighter light or heavy, the Sentinel is a destroyer and only ship I always beat pirate swarm in solo several times since HH was introduced in to the mix...
With patience and smart flying a solo pilot with either a Sentinel or Harbinger can take out a fully crewed HH on his own (very hard but can be done), I don't see that ever happen with the Redeemer.
IMHO, if you're not going to put players in at least 4 seats on the Redeemer, you're better off with some sort of Vanguard mix--not necessarily the Warden. With 5 players, you can field at least 4 Vanguard. The Redeemer cannot manage 4 Vanguard at once.
Ah, the great balancing conundrum of Star Citizen: Squeezing four players into one ship is not as effective as each flying their own ship. As a result of this, my hunch is that NPC gunners may prove to be more useful than we presently might believe, to offset the 'weakness' that multi-seat ships have in being human-resources-inefficient. It will be interesting to see how this balances out.
On Reddit and Facebook, players say the Redeemer cannot evade missiles as it has insufficient maneuverability. It will be interesting to see how this works out. i know the Redeemer does include countermeasures, so it is designed in some sense to evade, whereas most ships sporting large shields are not. However that said, to evade you need to fly with the incoming missiles abeam or "on your wing" and that means you cannot evade missles launched from two directions at about 90* angle. So there's no point saying you can evade when you can only evade missiles from one direction. That is not how an opposing force would attack.
I am still very curious why you state that argument often, tests still show that the Sentinel is no stealth ship at all.
Until 3.14, the Sentinel was easily the stealthiest medium ship. It's EM was raised at both 3.14 and 3.15, but everyone's EM was raised at 3.15. All the component stats are fubar for the moment. However, CIG has been entirely clear that the Sentinel is the stealth frame Vanguard and includes a special EM containment box around the reactor, and stealth armor. That has born out for many patches so I would not take the current crazy as long term. The Sentinel is a stealth ship.
You probably made a mistake noting that the Redeemer has less shielding (if I read you right), it has actually S3 shields, compared to the Vanguard S2.
The Redeemer has far less shielding that 4 Vanguards. It has about as much shielding as 2 Vanguards.
The Vanguard are great solo ships, but they are getting simply shredded right now in PTU in all the tests we have done vs manned Redeemers ;) The survival time is around 5-10seconds in a dogfight with competent turrets gunners.
That is interesting to hear. Is this 1 Redeemer (with 5 players) against 1 Vanguard, or 1 Redeemer against 4 Vanguard?
In a turn battle, the Vanguard is loosing all the time currently Vs a Redeemer, because of the turrets of the Redeemer which can put around 11k DPS with at least 3 of them focused all the time.
Irrelevant. There are no "turn battles when the combat is 4 against 1. You are comparing apples with oranges. If you have 5 players in the Redeemer, you need to compare it against 5 players in Vanguards. I guarantee if the Vanguard pilots know what they are doing, the Redeemer will lose, and lose badly.
On Reddit and Facebook, players say the Redeemer cannot evade missiles as it has insufficient maneuverability. It will be interesting to see how this works out. i know the Redeemer does include countermeasures, so it is designed in some sense to evade, whereas most ships sporting large shields are not. However that said, to evade you need to fly with the incoming missiles abeam or "on your wing" and that means you cannot evade missles launched from two directions at about 90* angle. So there's no point saying you can evade when you can only evade missiles from one direction. That is not how an opposing force would attack.
Not just one direction, you can evade 100% of the time all missiles coming at same time from behind and in front of you. Even in a Redeemer.
Of course if missiles are coming from multiple side directions you will get hit.
You can always safely evade missiles coming on the same vector line as you are, plus one more direction line not on the vector as long as angle is inferior to 45° compared to your vector line (cone). Even in ships as sluggish as the Connie.
That makes safely evading missiles coming from 3 directions at same time possible (front, back and one more angle direction). And considering missiles are generally used when you chase someone or race to confront someone, most of the time it is on the same vector line or in a cone on that line.
Front incoming : you boost full speed forward facing it and strafe opposite side direction, no CM needed at all. On a side note, if missiles are shot from any single direction, just align your ship towards that direction and faces incoming missiles while doing the previous for "front incoming".
Back+front incoming : doing the above is generally enough, if not use CM for missiles that are incoming from the back.
Side incoming+front+back : do as above and rolling putting all missiles on a plane as perpendicular as possible to your strafe + CM if needed. You also need to reposition your ship in that case and put your nose in between the shortest angle formed by 2 incoming missiles directions out of the 3. Checking radar (or head tracking) and boosting in time is key here.
Evading missiles is more tense when they are coming from a conic range of +/-45 degree angle perpendicular from your vector in addition to missiles coming from front and back. In that case you use CM.
This is how I train evading missiles when we do the weekly TEST CFT on Saturday and what I try to teach when people want to train evading missiles during our regular dogfight combat sessions.
You are more than welcomed to come and train with us!
edit : I'll write an illustrated guide sometime, my english level is poor to describe all that :)
No this is wrong info, a single Redeemer has far more shields HP than 4 Vanguards. Even more than 10 Vanguards with the current stats. Redeemer has 2*S3 shields (current 230000 max HP) vs the 2*S2 on any Vanguards (current max HP 17250) . It is a pocket-sized Hammerhead.
Try one in PTU you will see for yourself, I can lend you my Redeemer if you want to test it out.
Remember that 3.14 introduced a new scale for shields. A S3 shield has 10 times more HP than a S2 (which has 4 times more hp than a S1).
Shields
Design Goals:
The goal is to make players feel more in control of their shields via the Power Triangle. It also includes balancing shields by giving fighters faster regeneration and allowing smaller ships to grind through larger ships’ shields rather than battling against instant regeneration.
Outcome:
The changes to shields are not extensive for the initial release. However, we have removed a couple of non-player facing delays and tried to split the generator sizes for certain ship classes.
Specifics:
Size 0 and Size 4 Shields
No changes, as these sizes are only used by vehicle-specific shield generators
Size 1 Shields
Typically used on small fighters and transporters, such as the Gladius
High regen/HP ratio
Low HP overall
Bubble shields only
Size 2 Shields
Typically used on heavy fighters and larger ships, such as the Vanguard and Freelancer
Normal regen/HP ratio
Around 4x more HP than Size 1
Bubble shields only
Size 3 Shields
Typically used on heavy multi-crew ships, such as the Reclaimer
Large multi-crew ship sizes
Around 10x more HP than Size 2
Quad faces or above
Unless you meant hull armor HP? For armor indeed it has a bit less than 2 Vanguard combined.
Personally, I like both the Redeemer as well as all 4 of the Vanguards. As for which is best, I'll say that it will often depend to some degree on the situation, scenario & who / what is available at that time & place. Sorry that I'm not much help with this debate.
(***The Vanguard also rules in training players for small groups. As noted, Vanguards can be effective with most of their turrets empty, which means they can fly new members of a group without cost to that group. That's the best way for players to gain valuable experience. Conversely, even the smaller turrets on the Redeemer matter, because they protect a slower, less maneuverable ship.)
In my humble opinion, if you're wanting to train a group of rookies on how to handle turrets & you're planning on using a Vanguard, then you might as well use a Hoplite as then you can have multiple of them sitting in the jump seats while rotating in & out of the turret position. That being said, you can also do that for teaching them how to pilot a Vanguard as well. All without having to return to a station to switch crew members as often.
