Stealth Carrier

Shadow Reaper

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With the advent of armor, the Wolf has been removed from the position of ultimate “deck fighter” for use in attacking capital ships. The guns proprietary on the Wolf and Alpha Wolf have too low an alpha damage to be useful even against the lightly armored heavy fighters like the Sentinel. They’re useless against all gunships, corvettes, frigates., destroyers and carriers.

Search for a new deck fighter platform has been led to a combination of craft and cannon that leverages speed and snipe: the Murai Fury wearing 4S2 Strife Mass Drivers. This weapon does so much Alpha damage it should function against any future capital ship, including Javelin and Marauder Destroyers, Bengal Carriers and Vanduul Kingships. Unfortunately, the Fury has the frustrating limitation that it does not include a Q drive, so it cannot “make a jump or two” to reach targets in contested space while leaving its base in relatively secure environs. Use of the Fury as a deck fighter would require its carrier to leverage at least limited stealth. It can’t broadcast its position out to twenty kilometers like an Idris, or Liberator.

Even limited stealth requires S2 reactors. It’s a simple observation. There are no S3 and larger stealth reactors and there have never been, by design. S3 reactor equipped ships routinely have signatures from 17-35. This is not something CIG is likely to change.

So, I have spent some hours now reviewing what could possibly carry a wing of Fury yet possesses a seriously reduced signature. The results were surprising. I found only one, and I very nearly missed it. It is not what you might have guessed. If you want to guess, do it now. I’m headed into a lengthy reveal.

What stealthy ship can carry half dozen Fury “Deck Fighters” into theater, launch and retrieve them quickly, support the pilots between missions and provide them with what is essentially a mercenary’s or fleet ops officer’s home? There’s just one I have found.

AI says the MISC Starlancer MAX will fit 6 Fury’s. I checked the signature. In standard “silent running” mode it has a sig that drops to 7.0 with Revenants hot, and essentially 0.0 with just a single Eclipse stealth reactor running. (This is not surprising. Bigger ships tend to hide stealth reactor emissions better than smaller ships.) It can thus sit in empty space hidden, while its strike team lumbers off to do its business. This is a unique ship and thus important to be familiar with.

Suggested Fitout: 2 4S4 remote Centurion turrets +4S4 gimbled, 16S3 Arrester III, FR-86, 1 Eclipse, 1 QuadraCell MT, 2 Nightfall Coolers, 1 Hemera drive

Notes: problems with persistence have removed the ability to bed log in multi-crew ships for the time being, but AI claims CIG’s intention is to allow 2 players to log into each of the 4 double beds on the Starlancer. So it should have full accommodations for a wing of fighter pilots, once the issues with logging persistence are ironed out.

The Starlancer MAX includes complete comfort access, including expansive and beautiful living spaces, bountiful storage and a pool table. This is indeed a “Micro-Carrier”.

The ship is slow, but includes excellent 90/96 armor. It is completely vulnerable to active pinging so when opportunity presents, is best hidden in an asteroid field, on the surface of a celestial body, or inside nebulae, gas giant atmospheres, etc.

In order for Fury to precision target opponents from max range, they will likely need another friendly ship to illuminate the target with high power radar RF. Ideal for this may be a craft with the agility of a medium fighter but with an S2 radar and plenty of power pips available, like the Hornet Tracker. This is a new use case for the Tracker, given CIG keeps their current notion of providing precision targeting range based upon RF power on target. My suspicion is they abandon this for all the troubles it is going to generate.

I’ll add notes as this idea develops. I’m personally happy to revive the notion of deep strike fighter support, especially for use against the Vanduul. The death of the Wolf as premium deck fighter has really pained me. Maybe this can replace it, though I am still uneasy with the idea of fighters with no Q drive. Obviously, like any fighter attack force, these should be accompanied by bombers. This adds beds if CIG doesn’t allow doubling up in double beds.

What do players think about bringing stealth support vessels into the combat theater? What do people think of staying with the Liberator and switching to Anvil Arrows? They would be effective filled with Deadbolts, but they would have a huge disadvantage against fighters. Also, Arrows cost 50% more than Fury, which is not an insignificant issue.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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So, continuing the investigation, I asked whether the TAC isn’t a better ship than the MAX in almost every way, and indeed it is. However, it does not have S2 reactors. It has a single S3 reactor.

I don’t know how long this has been buggy, but there is so little difference between S2 and S3 reactor output that no one in their right mind would prefer S3. I have to think this is bugged. An S2 Eclipse reactor has 18 power and an S3 QuadraCell has just 25 power. This can’t be right. The MAX has 2S2 reactors so you can load one stealth and one military for a total of 39 power. Why would you ever want an S3 with just 25 power?

Further investigation shows if you shut down everything on the TAC except the reactor, it’s sig goes to 0.0. This can’t be right. So no joy on the power situation update.

However, I did make some other discoveries.

The TAC can fit 8 Fury and has 8 beds. Combined with a Retaliator that is 15 beds. Both ships have docking collars. How can we assign 15 players?

Let’s take the TAC into battle. It isn’t built to hide. So that is 5 bridge crew including 1pilot and 4 gunners. 1 engineer. 8 Fury Pilots. 14 total. The Retaliator gets just a pilot and stays out of combat. Everyone stays busy. There isn’t even room for a TAC copilot, though one of the remote gunners should sit the seat outside battle.

Let’s presume you can upgrade the TAC turrets as we’ve discussed recently. That’s 20S4 remote plus 8S5 manned guns. If we simplify and say all are Deadbolts that’s about 27,000 DPS, and you can radar illuminate with the TAC S3 so your Furys can precision attack from any range up to 5km.

The 8 Furys with 32S2 Strife don’t do that much DPS, but each of them can destroy a new hard point with 4k damage every 4 seconds. That’s killing 2 hard points/second.

The TAC has twice as many shields as the MAX. It has almost twice the hull. It has better armor: 99/106 instead of 90/96.

So yeah. I’m inclined to set stealth aside, despite Erkul says we don’t have to, and just say 15 players, the Retaliator, the TAC and 8 Fury—Midget Carrier Strike Group

This is presuming almost double the guns, and 8 Fury, both of which should be a surprise. Bonus is two medical beds in the TAC. Minus is it is slightly slower and about 45% more expensive, but still way cheaper than a Liberator. Also the TAC has no pool table.

This is a much smaller strike team than discussed with the Lib, but it is bringing 27,000 the additional DPS to the fight from the TAC.

One thing I like is, you could focus fire with the Furys and eliminate things like the big Perseus turrets and screening fighters, before you even bring the TAC into range, which would really change the battle. Even if your Tally didn’t have enough torps to kill your opponents, the guns on the TAC could mop up pretty quickly.

All thoughts welcome. And yes, I have thought about playing the same trick and putting 20S5 guns on the Retaliator, but then we need 6 more beds (5 gunners and an engineer) and the Tally does not have the HP or shields to manage a fight like we’re talking about. Maybe you could upgrade the guns and man her with NPCs, but I think you should then plan to lose the entire ship.

Also note, the TAC components room is gigantic, but all the components are in the one room. So you can store crated components here and just a single engineer can reliably service the ship since he never needs to leave the room.

The TAC is an amazing ship. I do wish they’d skipped the ridiculous drop ship seating but note you might fit a pair of NOX here, which could prove useful in non combat situations.

15 players is a nice size group; diverse but easy to manage. A mercenary group like this could handily manage a pair of Void Bombers, a Perseus, maybe even a fully crewed Polaris. There isn’t much in game that can hit a Fury at 4-5 km.
 
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Richard Bong

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Ships without Quantum Drives can't "Quantum Boost" so can't close the distance and can easily be escaped from once that is part of the flight mechanics.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Yes, that’s a serious problem in many roles, but in attacking a cap ship, not so much.

What I am looking for is a system for attacking Vanduul in the Sons of Orion storyline. I don’t think the Vanduul are going to run. I think they’re going to fight to the last.
 

Richard Bong

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Yes, that’s a serious problem in many roles, but in attacking a cap ship, not so much.

What I am looking for is a system for attacking Vanduul in the Sons of Orion storyline. I don’t think the Vanduul are going to run. I think they’re going to fight to the last.
Cap ships quantum boost too.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Yes well, if they’re gonna run away there’s no helping it, but at least in the case of the Vanduul, that’s probably not gonna happen. NPCs seldom run.

I think the biggest problem here is attacking a pair of Void bombers, you have to bring the TAC in range of 6 S10 guns.

According to CIG, without precision targeting, you have to shoot at the barrel of a weapon. With precision the entire weapon/turret lights up. If Fury can target and kill the big Vanduul plasma weapons without the TAC exposing itself, it’s an easy fight. If they can’t I think the Vanduul would kill a TAC. So it really needs to wait on actual battlefield experience to develop a method, IMHO. A lot depends upon the ability to target the Fury weapons.

The obvious solution is to fly one of the Fury so close to target it can illuminate an opponent enough for the others to precision lock at safe distance. That may sound daredevil, but if there is a ship that can do this, it’s the Fury. Requires an extraordinary pilot.

Once the S10 weapons are gone, the Fury can concentrate on the many turrets. Vanduul ships are notorious for poor armor. The Fury might one shot the turrets with 2k hits but certainly I think they would go down with 2 hits. With the TAC bearing on and taking the bulk of the plasma fire, odds are good this group could handily manage a pair of bombers. It would be an exciting fight for everyone.

This is presuming all ballistic because adding so many guns is going to tax the power base, and ballistics don’t get as hot. Vanduul plasma strikes add heat to the target that can cause fires. Happily the TAC comes stock with military A class Blizzard cooler that dumps 60 pips.

Another thing that needs real combat experience is how effective Fury weapons would be against the 4 Vanduul Blades that are carried by the Void Bombers. The Fury is slightly faster and more maneuverable, and half the silhouette to shoot at, and at 5km/s Strifes will hit often punching 4, 525 hp holes clear through the target. If they hit a tender spot then it may just die. None of the Vanduul S1 components have even half enough hp to survive a single hit. The real question is how long you need to shoot before you get lucky. A single Strife can one-shot a blade if it hits the reactor, and the Fury gets 4 shots like that at once.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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So update on the turret HP, it appears there is a standard where remote turrets at 2,000HP and manned turrets are 15,000HP. The S10 spinal mount guns on the Idris are 727k HP. No telling what the Vanduul S10 guns are.
 

Richard Bong

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Yes well, if they’re gonna run away there’s no helping it, but at least in the case of the Vanduul, that’s probably not gonna happen. NPCs seldom run.
Repositioning doesn't mean run. For example, I'm in a Cap Ship, and your Snubs are in range. My guns have a longer range. There is no advantage in staying close.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Only the spinal mount guns have a longer range than the Strife Drivers. The S8 guns on the Perseus are 5km. All other weapons are about 2-3km. The Strife are 5km.

The big difference to leverage between the S8 Perseus cannons and the Strife is the Perseus cannons have a velocity below 1km/s, and the Strifes are at 5km/s. So matched against each other the Perseus would almost never hit, and the Fury would almost never miss.
 

Richard Bong

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Only the spinal mount guns have a longer range than the Strife Drivers. The S8 guns on the Perseus are 5km. All other weapons are about 2-3km. The Strife are 5km.

The big difference to leverage between the S8 Perseus cannons and the Strife is the Perseus cannons have a velocity below 1km/s, and the Strifes are at 5km/s. So matched against each other the Perseus would almost never hit, and the Fury would almost never miss.
"Do not use a canon to kill a mosquito." - Confucius
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Yeah, exactly. And think about the sheer enjoyment of flying something so fast and nimble, and shooting something so fast it never misses. Now add to that all hits on remote turrets one-shot them, and the skeeters are there to kill the PDCs and turrets. It just sounds like great fun to me, despite the missing stealth dynamics I love so much.

The single biggest issue though, is this strategy avoids completely slugfests with opponents like the Vanduul, where their glass cannons could ruin your day.
 
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Richard Bong

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Yeah, exactly. And think about the sheer enjoyment of flying something so fast and nimble, and shooting something so fast it never misses. Now add to that all hits on remote turrets one-shot them, and the skeeters are there to kill the PDCs and turrets. It just sounds like great fun to me, despite the missing stealth dynamics I love so much.

The single biggest issue though, is this strategy avoids completely slugfests with opponents like the Vanduul, where their glass cannons could ruin your day.
You have to get in range, when you don't have the speed to do it. That means you have to launch from your carrier close and the carrier is, therefore under fire, at launch, from the main guns and the torps of the target ship.

You started with cap ships then switched to the Perseus. OK, lets use the Perseus.

The Fury is a flying egg. The size 3 guns, of the Perseus, with the superior sensors, are more than enough to quickly wipe Furies from the sky. More importantly, when you kill the carrier you can just leave and the Furies are dead anyway.

I seriously doubt you are going to be able to carry as many as you think.

And that assumes the Perseus is alone.
 

Shadow Reaper

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You are not hearing what I am saying. The turrets on the Perseus, Void Bomber, Polaris, Idris, Marauder and Javelin are near stationary and hard to miss. The Fury are small and nimble and very hard to hit. The turrets on the Perseus have a range of 3 km. The guns on the Fury have a range of 5 km.

One of very few ways of hitting an evading Fury at 5 km is to use a gun with 5km/s velocity, and there are no mounts for such small weapons on these big ships.

I don’t personally think many Captains would think to run from a handful of Zipcraft until it’s too late. Zipcraft don’t get much respect.
 
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