A little interesting side note.... The Ship hanger screen in the pu list the focus of the sabre as a stealth fighter and the raven as a straight interceptor. That seems to conflict with the description in the brochure, but alpha, so whats new.
Stealth Recon
- Thread starter Shadow Reaper
- Start date
I am always astonished at how many pilots fly Sabres without ever using their stealth capabilities.
I have never seen any ship that came optimized. CIG wants all of us to custom every ship because that is how we spend and they make money. You'll be surprised how much better the ship performs if you custom it. The stats don't lie, yet there are very few pilots really optimizing their ships.
As I said, I think the Raven is the sexiest ship in game, and they are cheap on EBay, but now that I am in love with the Sentinel, I will have to pass on it.
Yes, but I also like this calculator since it shows numbers of a whole class at a glance: https://www.erkul.games/calculator It does not however show some figures,like the EM of a cooler.
I do heartily recommend you swap out all those components. Note that you need lots more power generation to power the EMP, which is why this Sabre has a second reactor. It is therefore even more important to go small primary (Slipstream), large secondary, and the same with the coolers (small: Snowblind, Large: Ultraflow). The shields too. . .unless you really want to leave them on in stealth, need to be beefier. You have three so the FR-66 are an incredible upgrade--from 7,020 to 18,360 total. The refresh is the same, but the time to build from off is 5.6 seconds instead of 12 seconds which means you can and should turn them off in stealth. This will cut about 1/3 your EM signature, which makes it much, much easier to disappear.
I have never seen any ship that came optimized. CIG wants all of us to custom every ship because that is how we spend and they make money. You'll be surprised how much better the ship performs if you custom it. The stats don't lie, yet there are very few pilots really optimizing their ships.
As I said, I think the Raven is the sexiest ship in game, and they are cheap on EBay, but now that I am in love with the Sentinel, I will have to pass on it.
Thanks for that. I don't understand the engine overheat trouble. Were both coolers turned off?
Hardpoint shows a single Snowblind unable to cool at 100% with all engines active, but 2 Snowblinds can do that quite easily.
I'm having this conversation elsewhere, and was asked "why use all the same drive"? Well because this is necessary to move as a group at optimum speed, and because if you don't then any micro-jumping you do across the battlefield will spread your groups all over. I dunno who has observed much micro-jumping, but it is a big deal. A BIG deal! The fact that a wing of pokey Tallies can jump past a cloud of fighters, launch against a target and jump away is a crucial thing to consider. Yeah, it's important to choose the right drive and have entire groups use that same drive. Choosing a drive in common makes spooling time an extremely important feature. Actually, it's spooling plus cooldown time that matters, as you'd like that sum to be about the same or less than the lock time for the torps one fires, so that you can--jump into range, start a lock, cooldown, spool, fire and jump away--in that order. There are only 3 drives that can do this (the rest have a cooldown plus spool in excess of the Torp lock time of 12.2 seconds), so you'd want to pick one of them based upon how far vs how fast you need to go.
If you can do this right, and attack from behind or the beam of your target, it won't matter that it has spinal mounts that can cut you in half in a single shot, since it won't have time to bring those guns to bear.
If you can do this right, and attack from behind or the beam of your target, it won't matter that it has spinal mounts that can cut you in half in a single shot, since it won't have time to bring those guns to bear.
Last edited:
@Shadow Reaper and @Phil What I am reading here is you two are actually discussing apples and oranges. Maybe its a terminology thing, so here's a couple of thoughts.
*Stealth Recon* as Shadow is using it, means getting up close and personal. In MMO terms, this is your rogue, sneaking up for a backstab. In SC, being able to get close may allow for many specific tactical actions such as QT point for an assault, visual identification of targets/topology, and picket/guard elimination. IRL intel work there is NO substitute for boots-on-the-ground, and that seems to be the role he is slotting the EX into. I fully agree with that, btw, as one of the EX's strengths is constant hydrogen refuel generation to support it's boost-focused racing style. It's an endurance machine - make sure your relief tube is clear before liftoff.
As Phil seems to be addressing *Stealth Recon*, the thoughts falls more into line with traditional Early Warning systems such as shipborne radar and AWAC aircraft. This is where the Capitol sized radar components on the Polaris come into play, and the Picket role for smaller ships. Right now I'd fill the picket role with Vanguards for their Medium size components. The Terriblepin or DUR may be better in this role depending on how Scanners come to work in the game. Indeed, the Redeemer may OWN the picket role, as a gunship with those same medium components.
The Tracker concept seems related closest to the Airborne Early Warning System, where an active sensor platform roams within a 'safe range' of the fleet. It's definitely not aimed at stealth. How well this will work.. well, small components. Until there are values to work with this is conceptual. A Ghost fitted with the Trackers radar kit may be a very useful variation.. as long as that radar works passively, not actively.
Which brings us to the elephant in the room, in my opinion. How WILL scanners work? And what ships do they work with? The Terriblepin and the DUR are listed with medium radar and scanners; the 'Pin in specific has been said by CR to be top-of-class for what it can find. It has design characteristics that appear to allow it to be extremely stealthy for a period of time (EM and IR), yet its a fat ole' brick to normal radar (cross-section detection). So I'd not want to bring it within active sensor range of any competent fleet. (Will do, once this system is in game for TESTing purposes of course!).
IF passive sensors allow the detection of active 'radar' as it works in real world Electronic Warfare, then we go all the way back to the top of this thread and Shadow's original concept; just do the math, then fly within it. A generalization to explain: a Fleet is too loud to hide, so it PING's with active sonar, where the Attack Sub slips along listening on passive sonar, seeking an opportunity.
Delving into *speculation* ---- All of this points back to another ship that is definitely NOT stealthy but is expected to have extremely good detection abilities; the Carrack. Where the Polaris may need to rely on a Capitol size radar (think Ping) I have the impression that the Carrack will be more of a passive listening tool. Again, how the mechanic will be implemented, or equipment differ, is a subject that remains unknown. I do remember one of the royalty (might have been Todd Pappy) talking a couple of years ago about working on 'short-range scanning' and defined that as roughly 10,000 to 30,000 km. This was related to scanning not yet being implemented for the SQ42 vertical slice.. not at all sure how that fits together.
I'm enjoying the conversation and everyone's inputs so far.. rare for any thread ;)
*Stealth Recon* as Shadow is using it, means getting up close and personal. In MMO terms, this is your rogue, sneaking up for a backstab. In SC, being able to get close may allow for many specific tactical actions such as QT point for an assault, visual identification of targets/topology, and picket/guard elimination. IRL intel work there is NO substitute for boots-on-the-ground, and that seems to be the role he is slotting the EX into. I fully agree with that, btw, as one of the EX's strengths is constant hydrogen refuel generation to support it's boost-focused racing style. It's an endurance machine - make sure your relief tube is clear before liftoff.
As Phil seems to be addressing *Stealth Recon*, the thoughts falls more into line with traditional Early Warning systems such as shipborne radar and AWAC aircraft. This is where the Capitol sized radar components on the Polaris come into play, and the Picket role for smaller ships. Right now I'd fill the picket role with Vanguards for their Medium size components. The Terriblepin or DUR may be better in this role depending on how Scanners come to work in the game. Indeed, the Redeemer may OWN the picket role, as a gunship with those same medium components.
The Tracker concept seems related closest to the Airborne Early Warning System, where an active sensor platform roams within a 'safe range' of the fleet. It's definitely not aimed at stealth. How well this will work.. well, small components. Until there are values to work with this is conceptual. A Ghost fitted with the Trackers radar kit may be a very useful variation.. as long as that radar works passively, not actively.
Which brings us to the elephant in the room, in my opinion. How WILL scanners work? And what ships do they work with? The Terriblepin and the DUR are listed with medium radar and scanners; the 'Pin in specific has been said by CR to be top-of-class for what it can find. It has design characteristics that appear to allow it to be extremely stealthy for a period of time (EM and IR), yet its a fat ole' brick to normal radar (cross-section detection). So I'd not want to bring it within active sensor range of any competent fleet. (Will do, once this system is in game for TESTing purposes of course!).
IF passive sensors allow the detection of active 'radar' as it works in real world Electronic Warfare, then we go all the way back to the top of this thread and Shadow's original concept; just do the math, then fly within it. A generalization to explain: a Fleet is too loud to hide, so it PING's with active sonar, where the Attack Sub slips along listening on passive sonar, seeking an opportunity.
Delving into *speculation* ---- All of this points back to another ship that is definitely NOT stealthy but is expected to have extremely good detection abilities; the Carrack. Where the Polaris may need to rely on a Capitol size radar (think Ping) I have the impression that the Carrack will be more of a passive listening tool. Again, how the mechanic will be implemented, or equipment differ, is a subject that remains unknown. I do remember one of the royalty (might have been Todd Pappy) talking a couple of years ago about working on 'short-range scanning' and defined that as roughly 10,000 to 30,000 km. This was related to scanning not yet being implemented for the SQ42 vertical slice.. not at all sure how that fits together.
I'm enjoying the conversation and everyone's inputs so far.. rare for any thread ;)
Lots of great stuff here and too much to address directly. Let me just reiterate that the function of recon is to obtain information about the position and strength of an enemy, and the function of stealth recon is to do so without notice. It really is that simple. To keep any fleet safe you have to do constant recon, though this is somewhat less effective given the advent of a Q drive. However, to plan an attack well, you need to obtain detailed info about your opponent under conditions that do not let your opponent know you have his detail.
I don't think we have enough information about SC's game dynamics to answer as many questions as we have, but we can at least identify the questions. I do think though, that it is reasonable to note that in the case of the Polaris, you want to use its mobility to strike across great distances, which means it has to carry its own recon. Likewise, if you want to use the fantastic range of the S10 torp to maximum effect, you need to have spotters that will light the target. Chris has said as much several times while explaining how team radar and sensor functions are all shared. He specifically mentioned using spotters for long range weapons, so my fixation on finding the best spotters is in response to this.
Fact is, you will be able to fit just one Tracker, etc. in the Polaris hangar, or maybe two Turtles, but it's possible you'll be able to fit 4-6 times that of EX. As I showed some months ago, no matter the platform, scan area over time is linear with the cruise or drift speed of the scout. Using fast scouts therefore makes good sense. Until we know better, my money is on the EX for best tenders to the Polaris, mostly because they are FAST and hard to detect. If your scout detects the enemy fleet, and is able to shadow them without notice, you can then attack them. If you bring your Polaris across a system to attack from optimal range, about 22 km; and the scout lites the target for you, you can launch with some impunity. If however that scout is detected, and is attacked by enemy scouts (expected), the only way to continue to lite the primary target while under assault is to use blinding speed to thwart enemy scouts. Hence, in this important and one expects representative instance against the Vanduul, you really need scouts that are faster than the Blade.
Think about what missions we'll have in the Sons of Orion storyline. We're going to be hunting larger and larger prey over time. Eventually it won't just be Void Bombers (Vanduul Idris) and Harvesters (Vanduul Pioneer), it will be Marauders (Vanduul Javeline) with lots of scouts flying recon. That is the scenario one expects one needs to plan for.
I don't think we have enough information about SC's game dynamics to answer as many questions as we have, but we can at least identify the questions. I do think though, that it is reasonable to note that in the case of the Polaris, you want to use its mobility to strike across great distances, which means it has to carry its own recon. Likewise, if you want to use the fantastic range of the S10 torp to maximum effect, you need to have spotters that will light the target. Chris has said as much several times while explaining how team radar and sensor functions are all shared. He specifically mentioned using spotters for long range weapons, so my fixation on finding the best spotters is in response to this.
Fact is, you will be able to fit just one Tracker, etc. in the Polaris hangar, or maybe two Turtles, but it's possible you'll be able to fit 4-6 times that of EX. As I showed some months ago, no matter the platform, scan area over time is linear with the cruise or drift speed of the scout. Using fast scouts therefore makes good sense. Until we know better, my money is on the EX for best tenders to the Polaris, mostly because they are FAST and hard to detect. If your scout detects the enemy fleet, and is able to shadow them without notice, you can then attack them. If you bring your Polaris across a system to attack from optimal range, about 22 km; and the scout lites the target for you, you can launch with some impunity. If however that scout is detected, and is attacked by enemy scouts (expected), the only way to continue to lite the primary target while under assault is to use blinding speed to thwart enemy scouts. Hence, in this important and one expects representative instance against the Vanduul, you really need scouts that are faster than the Blade.
Think about what missions we'll have in the Sons of Orion storyline. We're going to be hunting larger and larger prey over time. Eventually it won't just be Void Bombers (Vanduul Idris) and Harvesters (Vanduul Pioneer), it will be Marauders (Vanduul Javeline) with lots of scouts flying recon. That is the scenario one expects one needs to plan for.
Last edited:
Yes, you nailed it. Stealth cannot use its own ping and instead has to search for EM, IR and an opponent fleet's active ping, while avoiding that piing through low RCS. (We don't yet have RCS figures for any ship, but the EX is likely to be among the lowest because of its tiny size.) One important thing to note here is that most fleets will ping as a standard practice. Especially Vanduul do not use stealth, so you can use their lack of interest in stealth against them.
We do know that small ships with no unusual sensors can spot Medium and Large ships at tens of km, just by their EM and IR. Without stealth all ships are prone to be seen before they can see, and that is what the stealth game is all about.
Last edited:
This is the kind of theorycrafting I love despite how we get chided for it! If you have a love for the Medium ships, take an interest in the Apollo. Yes, it is named a Large ship, but it uses almost all Medium components including the Q drive, which really suits it as a companion for the Vanguard, MIS, and Ares; and it really is the size of a Medium ship. It does however boast a Large radar array, which makes it cuddly and special, IMHO. My beef with it is the Large reactor, which is probably going to be hell to stealth. Worse is the Cap class reactor in the Polaris.
It will be interetsing to see if the M50 can be fit with void armor and be just as stealthy as the EX. Because it has such a small beam nose, could be though it is bigger more of them will fit in a Polaris bay. There are two advantages the M50 has. The dash is far lower so it gives a much better site picture of a conflict. The EX cockpit is troublesome. Second, the M50 has two small fuel tanks, so one supposes twice the range. Range is key for recon.
Theres so many good ideas in here. Definitely enjoyed reading all of it! I LOVE theorycrafting ;) . Im not in any position to write a wall of text this morning but ill try, and put my 2 cents in. I'd like to look at this like you would the US Air Force. You want recon? You send out a J-star, RC-135, SR-71, U-2, or drones among others. What do they all have in common? Eyes at a distance, which someone already mentioned. You want to stay as far away as possible, while still being able to gather the intel you need. Its not just a one step process however. If you can't get what you need out of your stand off recon, you use that info to help you get closer.
What would you do if you needed to get closer? You use scout aircraft. Looking through wikipedia, during WW2 they would re-purpose racing aircraft to do this job, which would be similar to bringing the m-50 or razor into play.
When we talk about "stealth" right now, like it's been said, its hard to determine how we can utilize the mechanic at this time. However, we understand Chris's vision is based around WW2, some modern aircraft, and Rome if im not mistaken so that gives us some idea of where were headed. When you want to think about stealth in this game, I would assume it would be for a strike force AFTER you used your recon craft to get the intel you need to maximize impact in the mission.
If you need stealth, its most likely you're either running an infiltration / exfiltration op, or you're bringing a sneak attack right up the enemies ass. I'm not too familiar with the prowler, but from what I understand, it can or will be pretty stealthy. That's your insertion craft. I would try some tactics with the raven if it ever becomes stealthy enough to fly escort. That EMP will be pretty nice if you're ever caught.
The up the ass attack will be the eclipse, with your choice of stealth escort if you feel you need it, mission requirements can and will vary.
IRL, you have the hercules gunship with a whole suite of electronic warfare avionics on it that can either jam or manipulate a radars signal. I doub't they would add stuff like this in, but you never know down the line. It just makes me wonder if the A2 would ever be a viable "stealth-ish" spacecraft.
Someone brought up the herald. Great idea to use the sensor suite for long range recon, but we'll have to see how that plays out.
If you are actually taking recon seriously, you want a polaris to start. Would be nice if you could also fit an eclipse in there. You stand off, get the intel you need, then stealth in. Lots of scenarios, but the polaris is definitely the ship to have for these missions. You might be spotted in the polaris, but your stealth strike group you're pulling the recon for probably won't if you know what you're doing with the intel you gathered.
What would you do if you needed to get closer? You use scout aircraft. Looking through wikipedia, during WW2 they would re-purpose racing aircraft to do this job, which would be similar to bringing the m-50 or razor into play.
When we talk about "stealth" right now, like it's been said, its hard to determine how we can utilize the mechanic at this time. However, we understand Chris's vision is based around WW2, some modern aircraft, and Rome if im not mistaken so that gives us some idea of where were headed. When you want to think about stealth in this game, I would assume it would be for a strike force AFTER you used your recon craft to get the intel you need to maximize impact in the mission.
If you need stealth, its most likely you're either running an infiltration / exfiltration op, or you're bringing a sneak attack right up the enemies ass. I'm not too familiar with the prowler, but from what I understand, it can or will be pretty stealthy. That's your insertion craft. I would try some tactics with the raven if it ever becomes stealthy enough to fly escort. That EMP will be pretty nice if you're ever caught.
The up the ass attack will be the eclipse, with your choice of stealth escort if you feel you need it, mission requirements can and will vary.
IRL, you have the hercules gunship with a whole suite of electronic warfare avionics on it that can either jam or manipulate a radars signal. I doub't they would add stuff like this in, but you never know down the line. It just makes me wonder if the A2 would ever be a viable "stealth-ish" spacecraft.
Someone brought up the herald. Great idea to use the sensor suite for long range recon, but we'll have to see how that plays out.
If you are actually taking recon seriously, you want a polaris to start. Would be nice if you could also fit an eclipse in there. You stand off, get the intel you need, then stealth in. Lots of scenarios, but the polaris is definitely the ship to have for these missions. You might be spotted in the polaris, but your stealth strike group you're pulling the recon for probably won't if you know what you're doing with the intel you gathered.
I'm most interested in how to spot for the Polaris torps while hunting Vanduul. Several little craft like the EX and M50 should fit in the Polaris bay, which removes the troubles getting small ships with small Q drives in theater. But to the two points people seem to have neglected here: if you are found spotting for a Polaris, but need to keep eyes on your quarry, the only thing that can keep you safe is blinding speed and maneuverability. These birds can turn circles around a fleet with relative impunity, all the while feeding targeting data to the Polaris. Chris actually mentioned during the discussion of shared sensors about using spotting ships for long range torps, so this is an important consideration.
The Prowler is a medium ship with small sensors--bad choice. If anything you want the other mismatch. The Tracker's Long Look radar on a Ghost Hornet, or the Large radar on the medium size Apollo. Neither of these can stay on task if they're found however, as the Vanduul fighters would kill them if they didn't leave.
The big added bonus however, is the cruise speed of the M50 and EX. Scan volume per unit time is a linear function of cruise speed, and these two little birds have the best cruise by far. People who think only on the larger area scanned by a larger ship don't take scan volume per until time into careful consideration, and that's the value that matters when you're searching for something, not instantaneous scan.
The Prowler is a medium ship with small sensors--bad choice. If anything you want the other mismatch. The Tracker's Long Look radar on a Ghost Hornet, or the Large radar on the medium size Apollo. Neither of these can stay on task if they're found however, as the Vanduul fighters would kill them if they didn't leave.
The big added bonus however, is the cruise speed of the M50 and EX. Scan volume per unit time is a linear function of cruise speed, and these two little birds have the best cruise by far. People who think only on the larger area scanned by a larger ship don't take scan volume per until time into careful consideration, and that's the value that matters when you're searching for something, not instantaneous scan.
I think i remember this discussion lumped in with others about beyond line of sight warfare. I was really stoked about it, and I hope long range torps do become a thing.
Well the thing about the prowler is that its not meant for recon, I put it in the stealth class. Your recon ships are there FOR the prowler to give it an idea of how it can stay hidden when you're going into the danger zone. I'd want a prowler over a valk or hoplite if im trying to go unnoticed.
Never heard this before, its good info to know!
[QUOTE="Jolly_Green_Giant, post: 333974, member: 3839"I'd want a prowler over a valk or hoplite if im trying to go unnoticed.[/QUOTE]It will be instructive to see how stealthy the Sentinel frame is compared to the Prowler. The Sentinel with a Hoplite package has the advantage of 1 PC turret gunner and marine sargent per 6 NPCs. You need three pilots for the Sentinels to replace the Prowler, but you get way more guns, missiles galore, more speed and maybe more stealth. The Sentinel has a special box around the reactor to thwart EM, and radar absorbent coating; so it is a real stealth ship.
One thing that concerns me with SC, is there doesn't appear to be the same Cartisian Coordinate system that would enable you to set out specific positions, and directions for each individual craft in a search so you know an entire sector, area, etc. has been searched completely. I don't see the basis for a working search dynamic yet. I'm not sure how recon will work but I suspect CIG knows they need to provide us with a useable coordinate system, and eventually we ought to be able to set any coordinates as a jump destination.
In SWC, I was a Squadron Commander for the Ailon Nova Guard, and a Battle Group Commander for the Wraiths. For both groups I organized searches for planets, as they're the big money in SWC, but hard to find. That gave me a lot of experience with search ops using google docs to make everyone's progress available to every player, which is more important when you're searching for three weeks at a time.
One thing that concerns me with SC, is there doesn't appear to be the same Cartisian Coordinate system that would enable you to set out specific positions, and directions for each individual craft in a search so you know an entire sector, area, etc. has been searched completely. I don't see the basis for a working search dynamic yet. I'm not sure how recon will work but I suspect CIG knows they need to provide us with a useable coordinate system, and eventually we ought to be able to set any coordinates as a jump destination.
Implementing such a system may be quite complicated. Everything is in motion and you are usually measuring objects relative to each other. Coordinate systems do exist, so they may be able to implement something, but IDK how well our current or alternative systems can be implemented in SC.
International Celestial Reference System - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Celestial coordinate system - Wikipedia
Things would be easier if the earth wasn't flat. A lot of this space shit is just made up by NASA.Barycentric celestial reference system - Wikipedia
Actually all the celestial bodies are fixed. Vehicles, weapons and asteroids are the only things moving. Stars, planets etc. do not move. This should not be hard.
For the moment, but that is not the long term intent. Planets are intended to orbit their respective suns and so forth. Each trip across a solar system, even between the same destinations, will work out slightly differently.
As to charting what has been found - The Carrack specifically has been stated as being able to display sensor results from other ships within it's group. This may and almost certainly will be extended to other ships, particularly capitols. We are a long way from anything more than rudimentary mechanics however, so number crunching at this time is not a thing. How detailed, what range, how persistent the results are, what information is actually obtainable.. many questions. Todd Papy has described his view of long range scanning as "opening an aperture, and letting the results collect". This doesn't sound like a fast process at all, but there is also short range scanning as a separate beast. This part of the system should be the one that has been reported as working for SQ42. ("The Space/Dogfight Team continued ‘space scaping’ various locations in the game, crafting them into believable places with function and identity. They also implemented work from the Vehicle Feature Team on the updated scanning mechanics, making sure they function correctly within SQ42. ")
From game technology perspective, long range scanning isn't going to be a fully working system until server meshing is properly in place. Because of the boxed nature of the object containers and server content, a 'long-range' scan in this game will need to be able to query all the servers/containers within range of the sensor package for appropriate responses. While Tony Z's Quantum system will determine what's out there in the environment, the game requires a tool to manage player inquiries and results returned. And I've not heard a word about what the UI would look like, although the Cartography Room in the Carrack gives some hints.
CIG has made the reason for the lack of a player visible co-ordinate system clear - they want to avoid botting. So resources will deplete, celestial bodies will move, encounters locations will randomize, location data will be handled with in-game systems. I suspect there is much more on this topic that they have not shared, or I've missed.
The Razor EX has the advantage of much faster hydrogen regen than the M50, by design. I can cruise all day long in atmo with it. The boost-oriented race style of the Razor lends itself well to eyeball recon. It does qualify as bringing a knife to a gun fight, but hey...
So will there be a way to at least set an arbitrary direction so we can fly loose formations attached by scan radius?
This thread had been an absolute joy to read. Thank you all. I was totally sold on the Ex until I came here. So much good back and forth. Now I want to look into both stealth ships and recon ships.
Don't think it was even in concept. Only available if you bought the optane drive back in...ummm....2017 maybe? Regardless, check eBay, there are usually plenty there for fairly cheap. Only comes with 2 month insurance, but that doesn't really matter.
