TEST FPS Weapons

[Deroth]

Handguns always do more damage than rifles, because of the larger diameter bullet. If you're designing a round for close use, the handgun or shotgun are better than the rifle.

The difference in effectiveness in combat between rifle and pistol is not in the round. It's in the fact that you tuck a rifle into your shoulder so it creates a much more stable firing platform. The best closest quarters weapons are sub-machine guns, which fire pistol rounds full auto from a platform tucked into the shoulder, and often with so little power you'd be astonished, in order to make them subsonic and therefore quiet. The power is primarily in the platform, not the ballistics. SMGs recoil less in game and are a great choice for the multi-tool guy.

If you're referring to games, yes that is true as very few developers are actually knowledgeable about how firearms and bullets actually work.

Example, an AR-15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel; this round has a slightly larger diameter than the .223 but with 2-3 times the mass and comparable velocity, causing it to have noticeably greater energy at the muzzle than a .454.
However, it is unlikely any military will use 6.5 Grendel in an M-4 type weapon as it'd be too problematic to control in burst or auto for most people.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

However, it is unlikely any military will use 6.5 Grendel in an M-4 type weapon as it'd be too problematic to control in burst or auto for most people.

Exactly. I think the game does mimick real life very well. In FPS they are giving an advantage again to ballistics, that they will penetrate shields, but they're also giving the disadvantage that they recoil more severely. The ballistic LMG recoils too much to keep it on target even for short bursts. It looks useless to me. The Demeco only recoils a little and you can put bursts on target long enough that the target will go down in one burst. SMGs seem to need more than one burst.

Again I recommend to everyone, watch the vids. Pick this up at time index 7M, and ignore what he says about carrying more than one weapon. He completes this misison with just the Demeco and there is no reason to carry a second weapon.

He misunderstands a couple things. He thinks the Demeco is a long range weapon, when in fact it has less range than a rifle--40 instead of 50 yards. It happens though, that 40 yards is sufficient for this theater. If you watch the bonus stuff at the end you can compare the shotgun to the Demeco and see how badly he gets chewed up using the shotgun. You won't be able to play this way when we start getting punished for dying.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsbbchVRjts&t=480s


There is a lot to be learned from watching missions gone sour, where everyone dies or comes close, and almost all those vids I've seen were the result of overweight players, moving slowly and running out of stamina.

 

[Mastersan]

Exactly. I think the game does mimick real life very well. In FPS they are giving an advantage again to ballistics, that they will penetrate shields, but they're also giving the disadvantage that they recoil more severely. The ballistic LMG recoils too much to keep it on target even for short bursts. It looks useless to me. The Demeco only recoils a little and you can put bursts on target long enough that the target will go down in one burst. SMGs seem to need more than one burst.

Again I recommend to everyone, watch the vids. Pick this up at time index 7M, and ignore what he says about carrying more than one weapon. He completes this misison with just the Demeco and there is no reason to carry a second weapon.

He misunderstands a couple things. He thinks the Demeco is a long range weapon, when in fact it has less range than a rifle--40 instead of 50 yards. It happens though, that 40 yards is sufficient for this theater. If you watch the bonus stuff at the end you can compare the shotgun to the Demeco and see how badly he gets chewed up using the shotgun. You won't be able to play this way when we start getting punished for dying.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsbbchVRjts&t=480s


There is a lot to be learned from watching missions gone sour, where everyone dies or comes close, and almost all those vids I've seen were the result of overweight players, moving slowly and running out of stamina.

This guy is not using the proper fighting and tactics. There is one that is properly TESTed:

Properly TESTed Evict Illegal Occupants Mission

I intend to do some more TESTing for FPS and I will share the results.

 

[Mastersan]

There is a lot to be learned from watching missions gone sour, where everyone dies or comes close, and almost all those vids I've seen were the result of overweight players, moving slowly and running out of stamina.

While I've been testing and recording some other weapons I came across an interesting observation on stamina, which behaves oddly. In one instance I've been strafing, running and jumping for about 30 seconds in heavy armor set, 2 primary weapons, a handgun, 4 grenades, 8 magazines, 2 medipens, and 2 oxypens and the pulse was reasonably low. In another instance the character blacked out in combat from high pulse while crouching behind cover. I will also try playing with armor, as you've suggested (heavy helmet, heavy torso, med hands, light legs) and check the difference.

With heavy armor, I've got at least 3 Hurston security at Lorville shooting at me with Gallant Energy Rifles (that's where I've been strafing and jumping for about 30 seconds, as I've mentioned above) and got hit 5-6 times from the front, back and sides before the character was killed. The first 3 hits to the front did no damage at all, so I would guess the shots to the back did most damage.

 

[Deroth]

Exactly. I think the game does mimick real life very well. In FPS they are giving an advantage again to ballistics, that they will penetrate shields, but they're also giving the disadvantage that they recoil more severely. The ballistic LMG recoils too much to keep it on target even for short bursts. It looks useless to me. The Demeco only recoils a little and you can put bursts on target long enough that the target will go down in one burst. SMGs seem to need more than one burst.

Again I recommend to everyone, watch the vids. Pick this up at time index 7M, and ignore what he says about carrying more than one weapon. He completes this misison with just the Demeco and there is no reason to carry a second weapon.

He misunderstands a couple things. He thinks the Demeco is a long range weapon, when in fact it has less range than a rifle--40 instead of 50 yards. It happens though, that 40 yards is sufficient for this theater. If you watch the bonus stuff at the end you can compare the shotgun to the Demeco and see how badly he gets chewed up using the shotgun. You won't be able to play this way when we start getting punished for dying.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsbbchVRjts&t=480s


There is a lot to be learned from watching missions gone sour, where everyone dies or comes close, and almost all those vids I've seen were the result of overweight players, moving slowly and running out of stamina.

That is because with the current game mechanics people are trying to use machine guns as a direct attack weapon but the reality of machine guns is too be used for suppressive fire in large scale battles.
Whenever large scale Org battles become viable an Org opting to not having people using machine guns for suppressive fire agaisnt an Org that is will likely get dominated.

 

[Mastersan]

If talking about ballistics, then it depends on the rounds being fired (Coda fires .50 caliber rounds.)

So it'd be like comparing a .454 Casull revolver to an AR-15 firing a .223 Rem.
While the the slowest .223 is over twice the velocity of the fastest .454, the lightest .454 is over three times the mass of the heaviest .223, which leads to the .454 having far more energy at muzzle.
This is why the .454 has a loyal following in parts of Alaska where bear encounters are not uncommon.

I think I may need to clarify my point. What I mean by "powerful" is the effectiveness in game against armored opponents.

While looking purely at the energy of pistol/revolver cartridges in the likes of .454 Casull or S&W .500 Magnum (even more powerful than .454 Casull), these may indeed have more energy (power) than a "rifle" (well, .223 Rem isn't really a true "rifle" round, which would really start from .308). However, these handgun rounds are not very effective against solid armor plates, unlike .223 Rem. Reason - speed defeats armor. You can find proof in tests against solid steel armor like Demolition Ranch and some others. The reason for these calibers to be used against big game like bear, is because it works well on an unarmored target and because a rifle is not available or jammed (unless the person choses to only use the revolver).

Of cause, there are some odd pistols, like .600 nitro express revolver, but still, these won't be very combat effective.

The caliber itself doesn't define the weapon power. Desert Eagle and Barrett M82 are both firing .50 caliber rounds, it's just .50 Action Express versus .50 BMG.

Handguns always do more damage than rifles, because of the larger diameter bullet. If you're designing a round for close use, the handgun or shotgun are better than the rifle.

The difference in effectiveness in combat between rifle and pistol is not in the round. It's in the fact that you tuck a rifle into your shoulder so it creates a much more stable firing platform. The best closest quarters weapons are sub-machine guns, which fire pistol rounds full auto from a platform tucked into the shoulder, and often with so little power you'd be astonished, in order to make them subsonic and therefore quiet. The power is primarily in the platform, not the ballistics. SMGs recoil less in game and are a great choice for the multi-tool guy.

I would tend to disagree with the damage part. The bullet diameter isn't the only factor that drives damage. The bullet of a larger diameter may transfer the energy into the target better, as it is slowed more effectively. However, there are some other elements, like penetration (the round needs to go deep enough), and something called "hydrostatic shock", which in simple terms is a shockwave created by the projectile entering the living tissue, the higher the speed, the greater the shockwave, which literally explodes targets from inside with fast rifle rounds.

The SMG stability makes sense, no issues there. However, again, when talking about enemies wearing full suite of hard steel body armor and helmets, SMG may not have enough penetrating ability comparable to rifles/carbines.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

That is because with the current game mechanics people are trying to use machine guns as a direct attack weapon but the reality of machine guns is too be used for suppressive fire in large scale battles.
Whenever large scale Org battles become viable an Org opting to not having people using machine guns for suppressive fire against an Org that is will likely get dominated.

The obvious and important difference between gaming and real life is gaming only seldom offers one shot kills. (Exceptions are shotguns, snipers and headshots.) It's not realistic that a fighter can take several missiles and continue to fight, or a soldier can take multiple hits to the torso and continue on. We have this difference so the game will be fun, but recognizing that serious damage has to be offered for an opponent to go down and stay down, is what I think drives the use of the LMG.

Watch the vids. The Demeco is called an LMG, but it has no tripod and it is not expected to be used as a true LMG. It's just a very heavy rifle. It has almost no recoil, and one can carry an absurd amount of ammo for it. (The loadout I offered carries 600 rounds--twice what a combat soldier carries for extended engagements.) Except for the sniper rifle, and the shotgun under 7 meters, nothing kills like the Demeco.

BTW, hydrostatic shock is the reason pistol rounds are so effective. Rifle rounds do not shock. They penetrate, tumble and tear. It is because pistol rounds shock that they're so effective, and that requires a large cross section for the projectile. The greatest shock comes from very large diameter, prefragmented rounds like what the Inuit peoples invented for shocking polar bears. They poured fat into 12 gauge birdshot shells and the fat keeps the tiny pellets together long enough to penetrate the hide, and then they fragment and shock the insides of the bear. That is what gave rise to all prefragmented ammo.

None of that matters when your opponent is wearing armor. What matters is delivering lots of hit in short bursts, and nothing beats the Demeco, IMHO; unless you need to shoot longer range. The Demeco is medium-short range only.

BTW2: the American and NATO doctrine of using machine guns for suppressing fire while the soldiers attack is based upon the notion that the LMG is not mobile, and the LMGs in SC are completely mobile. Even that doctrine has exceptions. The Germans used LMGs to devastating effect in WWII and their doctrine was to herd opponents into LMG fire arcs where the main assault was done with the LMG. So even an immobile LMG can be used for primary assault. The problem with the German doctrine was that the primary assault really needs to be mobile unless you can coax your opponents into stupidity--which was a thing during WWII. Real solders are not really that stupid anymore.

 

[Deroth]

The M249 is a real life LMG, I've carried them, they're very mobile and with sufficient strength and training can be shoulder fired (still not smart to plan to use it for direct engagement instead of suppressive fire), but since they fire an intermediate rifle caliber they require multiple hits to defeat Type III body armor.
The M240 is a real life MMG, I've carried them, they're also mobile but trying to hip-fire them is a good way to achieve fratricide, but since they fire 7.62x51mm NATO rounds there are versions that can defeat Type III armor with a single shot...but usually requires two in close proximity or more than six over the entire surface area.

Defeating armor is about more than just velocity, it is about force per unit area. That is why a .223 REM with greater velocity than a .50 BMG cannot defeat Type III body armor plates but the .50 BMG can defeat Type IV (and engine blocks.) This is part of the reason for modern ammos being developed with better cross-sectional density.

During WW2 the type of machine gun the Germans initially used was an HMG, frequently mounted to a vehicle so they could maintain mobility. Later they induced the StG 44 so their...less effective...troops could provide suppressive fire while their proven fighters moved into better positions.

Hydrostatic shock isn't as simple as handgun vs rifle, it is about energy transfer, shot placement, penetration, and luck. Many handgun and intermediate rifle calibers lack sufficient energy to create hydrostatic shock except at point blank range directly to the brain or spine at the neck.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Hydrostatic shock. . .is about energy transfer, shot placement, penetration, and luck.

I think we're agreed on everything you wrote, but to be more clear, shock is about impulse. All rounds do complete energy transfer unless the round exits the target. Shock is about transferring that energy across as little time period as possible--meaning the round does not go far but delivers all its kinetic energy over as short a distance and time as possible. This actually sends an acoustic wave that disables neural systems, and causes shock. You can actually deliver some shock without penetrating armor, but I don't think SC is much concerned with this.

My point really is this: the Demeco delivers the most dps on target of any weapon save special use (sniper and shotgun) and if you watch the vids, you won't easily choose another weapon for general use. The ballistic LMG's recoil too much for general use. The Demeco's limitiation is that it's only good for 40 yards. If they had made it good to 50 yards and put a scope on it, no one would use the other weapons. It kills that fast.

 

[Deroth]

I think we're agreed on everything you wrote, but to be more clear, shock is about impulse. All rounds do complete energy transfer unless the round exits the target. Shock is about transferring that energy across as little time period as possible--meaning the round does not go far but delivers all its kinetic energy over as short a distance and time as possible. This actually sends an acoustic wave that disables neural systems, and causes shock. You can actually deliver some shock without penetrating armor, but I don't think SC is much concerned with this.

My point really is this: the Demeco delivers the most dps on target of any weapon save special use (sniper and shotgun) and if you watch the vids, you won't easily choose another weapon for general use. The ballistic LMG's recoil too much for general use. The Demeco's limitiation is that it's only good for 40 yards. If they had made it good to 50 yards and put a scope on it, no one would use the other weapons. It kills that fast.

The compensator (muzzle break) barrel attachment in 3.7 should help address the muzzle flip in the ballistic SMGs.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

BTW, while we're on the subject; carrying only one weapon has another benefit. You can carry off more loot at the end of any given struggle. Picking up various firearms is going to be worthwhile once we hit Beta.

 

[Bambooza]

BTW, while we're on the subject; carrying only one weapon has another benefit. You can carry off more loot at the end of any given struggle. Picking up various firearms is going to be worthwhile once we hit Beta.

Will it be worth it? So far all of the weapons are relatively cheap and given how other things wear out I'd expect to see the same sort of wear on weapons.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I dunno how to answer that. What is cheap to one person is half hour's work to another. Perosnlly I'd love to pick up 2-3 weapons on every mission I run. Keep some and sell some. If it keeps me in tequila I'm happy. I am however planning to run several NPC marines, so I expect I need to have extra arms, armor, med sticks, oxy pens, etc. around.

 

[Mastersan]

On the subject of loot, I guess when the mission is done, you could get much more than just weapons - the armor, the ammo, pretty much anything of value. Maybe you could bring a trolley with you to carry the loot.

 

[Mastersan]

Wanted to check something.

I'm recording some videos and TESTing the weapons in the same mission (to keep all things more or less equal) to see the practical implementation and how these weapons perform. As part of my testing, I'm comparing the full heavy armor versus a combination of heavy/med/light, as well as 2 primary weapons vs only 1, all of which impacts tactics. This, however, is not the main point of my TESTs, but it is definitely a significant factor. The main point is still the weapons performance.

I'm thinking now whether these videos and some analysis/thought should be posted in this thread, which makes sense, as this thread is about FPS weapons. Otherwise I might create a new thread, just to keep the videos and analysis in the first post, so that we can discuss. I'm also thinking to create a number of videos, rather than a single long video.

What do you think?

 

[Vavrik]

What do you think?

The only part I have any opinion about is to keep video content short, and focused on one or two things. I want to be able to choose to watch a video that has information that is relevant to me at that moment. Turns out I'll also remember the content you present that way.... This is just my 2 cents.

 

[Bambooza]

The only part I have any opinion about is to keep video content short, and focused on one or two things. I want to be able to choose to watch a video that has information that is relevant to me at that moment. Turns out I'll also remember the content you present that way.... This is just my 2 cents.

I agree it needs to be short and on the topic all too often these sorts of analysis videos spend so much time describing the test setup the testing itself details about each shot. When it should just be here are the weapons I tested, this is a quick overview of the testing procedure and then the results.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Agreed. if you want people to watch them, vids are always best less than 3 minutes. Just fly through the topic and don't waste the audience's time.

 

[Deroth]

Wanted to check something.

I'm recording some videos and TESTing the weapons in the same mission (to keep all things more or less equal) to see the practical implementation and how these weapons perform. As part of my testing, I'm comparing the full heavy armor versus a combination of heavy/med/light, as well as 2 primary weapons vs only 1, all of which impacts tactics. This, however, is not the main point of my TESTs, but it is definitely a significant factor. The main point is still the weapons performance.

I'm thinking now whether these videos and some analysis/thought should be posted in this thread, which makes sense, as this thread is about FPS weapons. Otherwise I might create a new thread, just to keep the videos and analysis in the first post, so that we can discuss. I'm also thinking to create a number of videos, rather than a single long video.

What do you think?

Ask and video all the things, just keep them short, your target audience has a short attention span and are frequently too drunk to understand technobabble.

 

[Mastersan]

How about this kind of format: