Theorycrafting: Vanguard VS Banu Defender

[Kaz]

I know we have very little info on the Defender's special shields and weapons as of today, but how do you guys think it stands up to the Vanguard? They are both suposed to do the same job, but have different stats, weapons, prize.. well almost evrything is different!

Thoughts?

 

[I_MIKE_I]

Unless they re-do the Vanguard or turn the Defender into a unmaneuverable brick, I'm fairly sure the Defender would be the better Fighter by quite a margin.

 

[Printimus]

One is alien, the other is not.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

According to the report of others here, the stats page on the Banu is completely wrong. Apparently two of the S3 mounts are not guns but pylons, which means good missiles. Some of the Vanguard carry S3 missiles, others do not, so you need to specify which Vanguard when comparing.

Also the ships page makes it appear the Defender has crappy shields, but someone reported it has good shields. The Vanguard has excellent shields with a very high refresh rate.

In any case, the Defender cannot mount S4 and S5 guns. I happen to like the bigger guns, because I like the advantage of striking from out of range. That is one of very few advantages you can plan ahead on. Same with carrying S3 missiles--if you opponents are limited to S2, you can hit them before they can hit you, which is BTW the primary combat strategy of all Fifth Generation fighters--fly into range of your missiles, lock, fire, fly away before you can be locked. Its a good strategy in general. Though we do not know what the missile lock system will be like on the Defender, it probably does not lock as quickly as the Vanguard, as CIG planned the Vanguard missile lock system to be a superior item to others.

If I were flying S3 guns in a fighter, I would be strongly tempted to fight from extreme close range and mount all Pyros. That strategy may work well for the Defender. If so, it may be the Vanguards and Defender develop this distinction, that the former habitually fight from great distance where their guns are effective and the later habitually closes on an enemy. Both strategies have great merit. Once a close distance brawler closes on you, generally the only way to get away is run, which ends in the brawler chasing his opponent from behind. If the Defender can keep pace with his opponent he will have the tactical advantage once he closes the distance.

OTOH, the Vanguard would get free shots. If you hit with your first shots from outside your opponent's range, you can end a conflict before you are in danger. If however you miss, then they can be on you and the Vanguard does not dogfight well.

So this is my best guess, if you like scraping at close quarters, you may like the Defender better. If you like hitting when you can't be hit back, choose one of the Vanguard.

 

[Kaz]

I guess it all comes down to the range of those fancy tachyon weapons. If the Defender can have 4 of those AND S3 missiles it can be a serious long range sniper. Unless the Vanguard counter this with a S5 tachyon if available ofc :p

 

[Shadow Reaper]

There is a lot we don't know about weapons in general, even those we use every day. It is a trivial thing to mount an M7A laser on the nose of any Vanguard and see if you can hit stuff at 7km. If you don't have enough control to hit an opponent at that range, there is very little point in mounting the weapon. I would try a pair of S4 Ballistic Cannon and see if I can hit at 4 km. There is so much to test with the Vanguard it makes the head spin. One thing is sure--you can fly the Vanguard now, whereas you won't see the defender for quite some time.

 

[Kaz]

There is so much to test with the Vanguard it makes the head spin. One thing is sure--you can fly the Vanguard now, whereas you won't see the defender for quite some time.

Indeed. But as of right now, whatever i put on the Vanguard, i cant fly it well. its just too slow. Thats where im hoping the Defender to shine. Time will tell :) Then again, i have never flown the Vanguard with a turret gunner yet, so that might change things.

 

[Knucklesdeep]

The best answer for right now is, it depends. I would look at it from an aspect of cost vs reward. If a can hair an escort with longer range that i don't have to refuel or stop at a station, I would go with that one to save money if the cost of the escort allowed for profit. So, which has more range? we don't know. It depends.

 

[Stevetank]

I have yet to fly the Defender, so I don't know. Neither ship is finished. Also, the ship systems are not done either, especially the Vanguard scanner systems. So ... yeah... not enough info / tests to make a solid choice.

Just get the ship you think is cool

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Indeed. But as of right now, whatever i put on the Vanguard, i cant fly it well. its just too slow. Thats where im hoping the Defender to shine. Time will tell :slight_smile: Then again, i have never flown the Vanguard with a turret gunner yet, so that might change things.

And if you haven't fl;own the main gun on swivel you may like to do that. Even though she rotates slower than short range fighters, the swivel does not. The best way though to cope with the slower rotation seems to be to keep distance.

 

[Blind Owl]

I bought both. I have a thing for long range fighters, schmuck that I am.

 

[CrudeSasquatch]

The Drake Cutlass.
That is all

 

[Stevetank]

The Drake Cutlass.
That is all

Wise words spoken.

 

[AntiSqueaker]

With the Defender remember you are paying a premium for the "alien tax".

But judging from the role, dev quotes, and Q/A (which are never ever ever wrong, as we all know cough cutlass "2 person dogfighter with unparalleled maneuverability" cough cough) the Defender should have:

-Noticeably superior mobility. Is stated to be more agile than the Sabre and Super Hornet, which already run circles around the Vanguard.
- Superior speed. Stated to be faster than the Sabre.

Vanguard should have:
- Superior firepower. S4 gimbal, 4 S2 fixed (that do the damage of S3 cannons in game :ok_hand:), 2xS2 manned turret, and the missile pylons. Handily beats the 4 S3 hardpoints on the Defender.
- Superior durability. Bigger shields, bigger powerplants to feed em, and thicker armor. Winner winner chicken dinner.
- Cool variants/BUKs. If you're running a pure escort then no reason you couldn't run it in a Sentinel or Harbinger. Only thing better than a Vanguard escort is a Vanguard escort with torpedoes or EWAR capabilities. Plus you can get that kickass rocket turret from the Harbinger, fucking awesome.


They're both being specified as "long range" so I guess it's a toss up, buuuuut if I had to guess I would say the Vanguard would be longer range if they weren't tied.

Now that's in a perfect world where the Vanguard isn't a hot mess.

And in a perfect world you could always get a Cutlass anyway :heart_eyes_cat:

 

[I_MIKE_I]

With the Defender remember you are paying a premium for the "alien tax".

I wonder... do we pay Alien Tax with Banu Ships?

Even at 350$, I'd say the BMM is a fairly decent deal in comparsion.

 

[Beerjerker]

I wonder... do we pay Alien Tax with Banu Ships?

Even at 350$, I'd say the BMM is a fairly decent deal in comparsion.

Expect the BMM to increase in price again, after $0 CCUs are a thing of the past. With the last price bump, those little gremlins kind of turned into pseudo-free $100 coupons. I'd bet they'd like the BMM to be $450+ (wasn't the Prowler $400+?), but they didn't want the $0 CCUs floating around to have an effective value of $200 or possibly more.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

Expect the BMM to increase in price again, after $0 CCUs are a thing of the past. With the last price bump, those little gremlins kind of turned into pseudo-free $100 coupons. I'd bet they'd like the BMM to be $450+ (wasn't the Prowler $400+?), but they didn't want the $0 CCUs floating around to have an effective value of $200 or possibly more.

Yeah... I'd actually be tempted to go for 2 big Ships if they increase prices on Cutlass+Prospector by quite a bit or if I should win a Giveaway (in which I have no luck).

I'd hope that at least the prospector gets a 20$ price bump.

Regarding the Cutlass, I'd kinda expect them to nerf it down a bit from those awesome pictures with 4x S3 Guns and 2x S3 Guns in the Turret rather than bumping up the price... altough it would be a mean move considering what Cutlass owners had to go trough already.

 

[Pander]

While both do the same thing you may get a bit more mileage out of the vanguard on a versatility front with a few different load outs, ewar and drop ship etc

In the Banu defender atv they said that the banu are set on a path and are trained to do that one no versatility they specialize so that same principal may be in there ships as well the defender is just that it defends BMM not a dedicated fighter or a makeshift drop ship etc.

This is of course all a waste of time and you should get a cutlass :P

 

[Grimm_Reaper]

Instead of 4 xS3 if 2 are pylons for the BD I would go hands down Vanguard. While missiles are nice they can be easily countered and every fighter carries more flare and chaff than missiles. That leaves 2x S3 on the BD which in my opinion makes it weaker at about the same as a gladius light fighter.

Vanguards generally can destroy light fighters and only need to worry about mediums. BD seems to fall in the light fighter tanky category. Alone its just generally weak 1 vs 1. They are generally stronger in a swarm but at that selling price point and hideous line of sight I won't expect them to swarm much.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Instead of 4 xS3 if 2 are pylons for the BD I would go hands down Vanguard.

4XS3 plus missiles reminds of the Sabre's offering and no one would think that flimsy, but I have to agree--the S5 on the Vanguard nose is something special, whether 2XS3 on gimbal, or 2XS4 fixed, or 1XS5 fixed, there is nothing else like it.

If the BD really is super-maneuverable, and tanky, and carries something akin to the Sabre, it sounds like a two-person, long-range, non-stealth Sabre.