They fixed the Vanguard?

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
Looks like 3.18 reversed the 3.14 decision about stealth in the Sentinel.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Vavrik

Raven_King

Grand Admiral
Donor
Jan 17, 2021
697
2,585
1,000
RSI Handle
Raven_King
I don't have access to values for 3.14, and I don't spend much time looking at this so may be getting the wrong end of the stick, but if anything it looks like stealth in the Sentinel is getting worse between 3.17.4 and 3.18, assuming erkul.games is correct (presumably not a safe assumption, since 3.18 is not live yet):

Tables of all Vanguard variant EM and IR signatures. I believe the current mechanic (which won't be final) is that ALL radars regardless of size can passively detect targets at a range of either their current EM or IR signature whichever is larger i.e. detection range in meters = MAX( IR , EM ), and can actively ping to detect at exactly twice that range. (But I believe radar cone angle impacts that too, so surely that's not the whole story).

v3.17.4-LIVE.8288900:
HarbingerHopliteSentinelWarden
EM44 23038 6237 63740 160
IR6 5506 6476 4877 025

So if those numbers are right, in 3.17.4, the Sentinel is by FAR the stealthiest Vanguard, with a base detection range of 7.637 km with stock loadout. There are surely some complex details I've missed, like the effect of doing stuff in the ship - flying, shooting, pinging etc. which will tend to increase the signatures, turning stuff off which may reduce EM, changing coolers, overclocking etc. I will ignore that for this purpose because frankly I haven't bothered to spend much time worrying about how it works while we're running with such provisional numbers and a provisional detection/stealth mechanic.

v3.18.0-PTU.8323027:
HarbingerHopliteSentinelWarden
EM23 23017 62324 57119 160
IR6 8006 8977 2957 275
In 3.18, if correct, the Hoplite is stealthiest, detectable at 17.623 km, significantly more stealthy than it was in 3.17 (38.623 km), and the four variants were brought much closer together, but the Sentinel is now the worst of the four (detectable at 24.571 km).

I know you pay a lot more attention to this stuff than I do, @Shadow Reaper . What do you make of this? Is this short video explaining it for 3.14 still correct? Happy to learn.
 
Last edited:

Vavrik

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 19, 2017
5,476
21,988
3,025
RSI Handle
Vavrik
I don't know where this went sideways, but I also thought it was supposed to be stealthy.

However, the Sentinel is sold in a Wild Weasel role. That is not a stealth role. The idea is to attract radar and missel fire away from bombers, and to attack the threats to the bombers.
Think F4. If you ever heard one, you would know that even a rock would say that is not stealthy.
 

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
IIRC, the Sentinel was indeed sold as a stealth ship, capable of wild weasel. It's the only Vanguard with radar absorbing armor and an EM box around the reactors. It did produce a much lower EM signature than the others until the weapons nerf at 3.14, and I hadn't noticed it was put back until yesterday. So two things: first, to get numbers that compare to the other ship variants you have to shut the EMP off. It has never generated stealth numbers with the EMP or shields active. When 3.14 hit was the first time small ships had shields that could be left on and still have a stealthy signature. I think that's still true and for this reason I only compare numbers with all weapons and shields off. This is more useful anyway. I think they want to force you to choose between roles, and whether to leave your weapons, engines and shields on, since shields and EMPs take time to charge. (To unpower a component in erkul, click the green vertical bar on the right side of the component in the layout. It should turn grey to power off. Powering and unpowering components is a huge part of stealth gameplay.)

Second, I believe detection range is EM or IR, whichever is higher, multiplied by 0.5 for a small radar/sensor suit, 0.75 for medium (S2), 1.0 for large and 1.5 for cap class. Also the stealth switch moves about 25% of your IR to EM, so you'll use it if you have a much lower EM than IR. In general, stealth ships have an EM signature that is lower than their IR, so when they flip the stealth switch it actually improves their signature. This is NOT true of many ships. I have never found the toggle representing the stealth switch in erkul, so I think you have to do this calculation yourself. In the instance where the Sentinel has everything off, its IR is 6,487 and its EM is just 543, so with full sneak enabled the larger sig should be IR at 4865 and its detection range should be S1=2.4km, S2=3.6km, S3=4.9km, and S4 =7.3km. That is a tiny sig, and recall the ship has 4x4S2 missiles available so can strike from outside its detection range. This is a big deal, and affects all ships capable of small signatures that carry significant missile loads. If you carry 4 S4 launchers, in practical terms this is huge, and so far as I'm aware, was not true from 3.14 until recently--I thought 3.18. Additionally, the tiny 2.4 km detection range of small ships is less than the range of most S5 weapons, so the Sentinel would actually have guns in range for a first shot when emerging from stealth. Probably, this is one reason why we're not allowed to equip the Slayer cannon with it's 18,500 point alpha strike to the Vanguard chin. It would be way OP and able to one shot all small ships from stealth.

As to "emerging from stealth", it seems clear to me CIG intends stealth gameplay to concern mostly first strike scenarios, and that once you power things like thrusters, shields and weapons, your stealth is gone. The Sentinel emits 6k EM just from turning on its thrusters, and you can't aim your guns without them. Whether you have your thrusters on or off is literally ten times as much difference in EM as whether you are using them or they're on standby. This is certainly by design. CIG wants stealth seekers to turn components off. So you really do need to think in terms of missile and weapons first strikes being very different, and you probably want to set up Voiceattack with multiple keys like "battle stations", "stealth", "superstealth", etc. There are way too many components to be switched on and off in an instant to do this manually when attacking from stealth.

Sometime in the last year, I don't recall exactly; SC Unpacked began reporting the Vanguards have a real difference between their radar and sensor suits (scroll to bottom). So far as I'm aware, CIG has never reported they would do this, so I don't know what to make of it since sensors are not in game yet. Just FYI though, SC Unpacked says the Sentinel has S1 Ping, S2 Radar (which is cross section return sensitivity) and S1 Sensors. So far as I know this is not accurate, but the fact it's different makes me wonder if CIG isn't trying to get ready for the full EW rework we're waiting on. As of this time I don't think there has ever been a difference between ping, radar and sensors sizes on any ship. So who knows where SCUnpacked gets its data.

Hardpoint still carries no sensor data since they don't consider it something that is in game yet.

Final BTW, I had this discussion online in another forum a year or more ago, so wanted to note--the whole notion that the Sentinel frame with the Harby torp package should make a great stealth fighter-bomber package is a complex issue. One thing to note when considering: the Harby has its beds on the port side and the Sentinel on the starboard. If the sides swap individually, you could build a stealth, EW fighter-bomber without beds. What the modularity means in the Vanguard is unresolved, but with stealth restored to the Sentinel, stealth fighter-bombers are a thing again. Even if you can't swap sides separately, putting the Harby torp package into the Sentinel frame should yield a stealth fighter-bomber with beds. It looks like CIG planned this, because the Harby is the only variant with the beds on the port side. They did extra work just for this result. If you look at the hull of the four Vanguards from outside, it appears the modules swap each side, so. . .who knows what CIG plans. A stealth fighter-bomber with 2 beds, advanced EW and no EMP sounds like what I want. Just to do Electronic Warfare right, that Rear Equipment Operator (REO) needs that ultra cool standing display to actually do something.

1672867387159.png


And speaking of doing something--easter egg for those who read all that: were you aware that the Vanguards all have an empty component bay starboard of the steps up into the cockpit? Empty, meaning there is nothing yet planned for that space, yet there is a space. Even life support has a bay on the Vanguard. There is an EMPTY equipment bay on all Vanguards. So. . .
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Vavrik

Vavrik

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 19, 2017
5,476
21,988
3,025
RSI Handle
Vavrik
I got my description using Erkul, but I noted a discrepancy between Erkul and SCunpacked compared with CIG. I think these sources have something mixed up somehow- their descriptions of the Sentinel's basic role doesn't match CIG's.. So when you look at Erkul, you see Heavy Fighter, not Interdiction. A long time ago, I used to extract the data from the Data.p4F file, but I don't have the time nor inclination these days so I can't double check. It could be the Data.p4f file still contains the wrong definition.

The description for The Vanguard line as of a little over a month ago:
heavy fighter is the Warden,
bomber is the Harbinger,
drop ship is the Hoplite,
interdiction is the Sentinel. Not heavy fighter, that wouldn't make sense given the role of the Warden.

It's description is
Focus
Interdiction

Description
The Vanguard Sentinel is a ship that’s designed to fight smart instead of taking enemies head on. The conversion features an AR cockpit, an external e-War pod, decoy missiles and a set of EMP charges. Vanguard Sentinels often provide necessary combat support for combined operations. A lone Sentinel assigned wild weasel tasks is frequently paired with Harbinger bombers and Warden escorts for large attack missions.
 

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
Yes, I recall the original sales pitch, but we know they never delivered on the cockpit, e-war pod, decoy missiles and EMP charges. Instead they gave us an EMP and never said what the long term intention is going to be. They never developed an anti-radiation missile (wild weasel), which is basically a weapon that seeks out radar projectors to remove AA installations before a strike. Basically they just stuck an EMP in and said "we'll come back to it later--lets just get it out". Could be a very long time before they fix it since they don't make more money by fixing stuff. OTOH, one supposes the real role of the Sentinel is necessary to SQ42, so who knows what will happen.

BTW, there is a common misconception that stealth and wild weasel tasks are mutually exclusive. That is totally in error. The best wild weasel birds are stealth and emit a false sig they can use to get AA installations to emit, then quickly switch off their false sig and launch on the emitter. Stealth enables wild weasels to survive to accomplish their tasks. There is no reason to believe the US Navy Growler has stealth, and that's the primary WW platform, but rumors persist that the F-117 had this capability, that the F-22 has WW capability (the F-117 would never have been retired if the F-22 didn't have this capability, is the argument), and they are both certainly stealth. Likewise the F-35 is now replacing the F-18 Growler, and it is certainly stealth. If you'll recall, we were originally told the Sentinel would be able to project the signature of other ships in order to deceive the enemy. To do this, you need to hide your own signature, so stealth is intrinsic to what CIG said the Sentinel is all about.

EW is actually a very different task--it's about jamming existing radars rather than killing them like a WW would. In theory, a Sentinel could attack an AA installation with a radiation seeking missile and destroy it--Wild Weasel, and could also use its Electronic Warfare package to jam the sensors of an enemy cap ship and render all its computer aided gunnery useless. But see here's the thing--CIG said the Sentinel would do all these things and then gave us something very different with no promises about the future. All we have is the explanation that they don't want to ruin the surprise. This actually makes sense since we know the Vanguard has a very special place in Chris' heart, and in SQ42.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Vavrik

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
I don't know where this went sideways, but I also thought it was supposed to be stealthy.

However, the Sentinel is sold in a Wild Weasel role. That is not a stealth role. The idea is to attract radar and missel fire away from bombers, and to attack the threats to the bombers.
Think F4. If you ever heard one, you would know that even a rock would say that is not stealthy.
That is the same way I read the marketing material.
I started with a Sentinel with a Warden BUK, but when they put the stealth components on it, I swapped. (Thanks to @Blind Owl the Sentinel BUK has LTI.)
 

Vavrik

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 19, 2017
5,476
21,988
3,025
RSI Handle
Vavrik
Yes, I recall the original sales pitch, but we know they never delivered on the cockpit, e-war pod, decoy missiles and EMP charges. Instead they gave us an EMP and never said what the long term intention is going to be.
That isn't just what the sales pitch was. It is what the current sales pitch still is, on CIG's website today. The stuff in italics in my post was text that I cut and pasted from the RSI website today.

Here.
Sentinel.png
 
Last edited:

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
Yeah. This is why I still expect large changes to the Sentinel's capabilities. I don't recall CIG ever making a declarative statement about what to expect in the long term. IIRC, they were pretty hushed on what they gave us as compared to what they had said, so I really think the EMP is a place holder for when they introduce more elaborate gameplay. I'm pretty sure the claim that it would mimic other ships' signatures is still official too, so there is a lot to expect in the future.

If I wasn't clear above, one of the things that intrigues me most about the modules perhaps being port and starboard (as appears on the outside) is as I noted, the Sentinel has the bunks on port, and the Harby has them starboard. This means if you can swap just one side, you can create a ship with 4 bunks, OR, you can create a ship with no bunks, the EW suite and the torp suite. The EW suite has a head, and the torp suite has a galley, so you really would have everything but bunks. The torps bring a lot to the table, and since the Sentinel handles appreciably better than the Harby, I would not be surprised to find the Sentinel become the preferred Vanguard bomber. Better still is that the EW and torp packs each have their own gun racks, so you'd have the ability to store 8 instead of 4 guns, which seems to me much needed. Bigger deal though is to be able to select bunks or torps on a daily basis. That makes modularity really sweet.

Given what we have been told, I can imagine 3-4 players in a Sentinel regularly: pilot, missileer, turret gunner and EW expert, all flying in stealth with torps. Recall, we were also told the Vanguards have a special missile targeting computer, and we haven't seen that yet either. If they ever give it the ability to lock more than one target at a time, you'll want a player doing nothing but. I have this vision in mind with a Vanguard surrounded by Vanduul, launching again and again and again as a team of pros struggles against horrific odds. Turret and nose ablaze. . .Just sounds fun. I recall when Missile Operator Mode was introduced, I saw huge advantage to having a player dedicated to this. I seem to recall something about "tagging" targets, but it's been too long to recall. It's all gameplay waiting for completion.

So I'm talking myself back into loving the Sentinel the way I did when it had stealth. Pro Tip for Vanguard drivers when we get the ballistics update: CIG says they're gonna make ballistics hurt more. The only thing that makes them hurt less is the S2 Sukoran shield, and it fits in the Vanguard.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Vavrik

Vavrik

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 19, 2017
5,476
21,988
3,025
RSI Handle
Vavrik
You're touching on another issue I have with the way CIG is implementing these ships. Hopefully (but not probably) they'll work out how modularity will work in the next couple of years. They should have done this with a group of say 10 developers when the project was a lot smaller than it is now. Now, because they didn't do that even when they knew they should, it's going to cost a lot more and take way more resources to get it all done than it would have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Reaper

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
Yeah. This is why I still expect large changes to the Sentinel's capabilities. I don't recall CIG ever making a declarative statement about what to expect in the long term. IIRC, they were pretty hushed on what they gave us as compared to what they had said, so I really think the EMP is a place holder for when they introduce more elaborate gameplay. I'm pretty sure the claim that it would mimic other ships' signatures is still official too, so there is a lot to expect in the future.

If I wasn't clear above, one of the things that intrigues me most about the modules perhaps being port and starboard (as appears on the outside) is as I noted, the Sentinel has the bunks on port, and the Harby has them starboard. This means if you can swap just one side, you can create a ship with 4 bunks, OR, you can create a ship with no bunks, the EW suite and the torp suite. The EW suite has a head, and the torp suite has a galley, so you really would have everything but bunks. The torps bring a lot to the table, and since the Sentinel handles appreciably better than the Harby, I would not be surprised to find the Sentinel become the preferred Vanguard bomber. Better still is that the EW and torp packs each have their own gun racks, so you'd have the ability to store 8 instead of 4 guns, which seems to me much needed. Bigger deal though is to be able to select bunks or torps on a daily basis. That makes modularity really sweet.

Given what we have been told, I can imagine 3-4 players in a Sentinel regularly: pilot, missileer, turret gunner and EW expert, all flying in stealth with torps. Recall, we were also told the Vanguards have a special missile targeting computer, and we haven't seen that yet either. If they ever give it the ability to lock more than one target at a time, you'll want a player doing nothing but. I have this vision in mind with a Vanguard surrounded by Vanduul, launching again and again and again as a team of pros struggles against horrific odds. Turret and nose ablaze. . .Just sounds fun. I recall when Missile Operator Mode was introduced, I saw huge advantage to having a player dedicated to this. I seem to recall something about "tagging" targets, but it's been too long to recall. It's all gameplay waiting for completion.

So I'm talking myself back into loving the Sentinel the way I did when it had stealth. Pro Tip for Vanguard drivers when we get the ballistics update: CIG says they're gonna make ballistics hurt more. The only thing that makes them hurt less is the S2 Sukoran shield, and it fits in the Vanguard.
SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense) consists of 4 roles.
  • Intelligence, which locates probable Air Defense facilities and equipment.
  • Wild Weasel, which acts as a target to get the Air Defenses to use their Radars so they can be attacked and destroyed using anti-radiation missiles.
  • Iron Hand, which is the strike element that strikes enemy air defenses and C3 sites after they've been Identified.
  • Extensive jamming.
The F-117 was used in the Iron Hand role, to strike identified targets, but is ineffective in the Wild Weasel role because their entire purpose is to avoid radar in the first place.

I can find no reference to a stealth wild weasel craft ever being produced by any nation. It is generally a US concept, using specialized aircraft. Initially the F100 (unmodified aircraft, not successful) the F-105G (semi-successful), the F-4G (very effective). Currently the F-16CJ and EA-18G (Growler) plus the Tornado ECR are the only dedicated Wild Weasel aircraft I can find in use anywhere.

Jamming is another very noisy role. Initially carried out by bombers dropping entire payloads of "window." Later dedicated craft for jamming, most famously the EA-6B and the EF-111 were used for the role. I can find no reference of stealth craft used in that role either.

Can you please post your reference that Wild Weasel or Jamming missions are being conducted by Stealth Air Craft?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Reaper

RoosterRage

Vice Admiral
Donor
Jul 16, 2022
111
330
400
RSI Handle
RoosterRage
I don't know where this went sideways, but I also thought it was supposed to be stealthy.

However, the Sentinel is sold in a Wild Weasel role. That is not a stealth role. The idea is to attract radar and missel fire away from bombers, and to attack the threats to the bombers.
Think F4. If you ever heard one, you would know that even a rock would say that is not stealthy.
You are correct that wild weasels do/did (modern stealth changes this) attract missiles but they do it at will by lighting up their radar systems to attract attention and then using anti-radiation missiles to destroy the sam sites prior to the bombers coming in, in SC the Sentinel came with stealth components originally maybe these emissions are with the EMP turned on and charged?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vavrik

RoosterRage

Vice Admiral
Donor
Jul 16, 2022
111
330
400
RSI Handle
RoosterRage
SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense) consists of 4 roles.
  • Intelligence, which locates probable Air Defense facilities and equipment.
  • Wild Weasel, which acts as a target to get the Air Defenses to use their Radars so they can be attacked and destroyed using anti-radiation missiles.
  • Iron Hand, which is the strike element that strikes enemy air defenses and C3 sites after they've been Identified.
  • Extensive jamming.
The F-117 was used in the Iron Hand role, to strike identified targets, but is ineffective in the Wild Weasel role because their entire purpose is to avoid radar in the first place.

I can find no reference to a stealth wild weasel craft ever being produced by any nation. It is generally a US concept, using specialized aircraft. Initially the F100 (unmodified aircraft, not successful) the F-105G (semi-successful), the F-4G (very effective). Currently the F-16CJ and EA-18G (Growler) plus the Tornado ECR are the only dedicated Wild Weasel aircraft I can find in use anywhere.

Jamming is another very noisy role. Initially carried out by bombers dropping entire payloads of "window." Later dedicated craft for jamming, most famously the EA-6B and the EF-111 were used for the role. I can find no reference of stealth craft used in that role either.

Can you please post your reference that Wild Weasel or Jamming missions are being conducted by Stealth Air Craft?
The F-35 Lightning II is slated to gradually replace these aircraft for various air-to-ground roles, including SEAD, beginning with its introduction in 2016. Its stealth capabilities promise a significant increase in effectiveness against air-defence radars, though to maintain its lowest radar signature, its payload capacity would be limited to the internal weapons bays, reducing the number of missile site attacks per sortie. However, it can carry more or larger air to ground weapons internally than even the F-22 and is more advanced in a ground attack capacity, potentially making it the best manned aircraft for destroying sophisticated enemy air defenses. Additionally, the AARGM-ER, itself an evolution of the AGM-88 HARM, is being integrated into all three variants of the F-35.[11][12] The F-35A and F-35C will have the ability to carry the AARGM-ER internally, while the F-35B will only be able to carry the missile externally owing to its smaller internal weapons bays. [13]
Straight from wiki.
 

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
Can you please post your reference that Wild Weasel or Jamming missions are being conducted by Stealth Air Craft?
So there are two issues here. First, there is the rhetorical confusion that SEAD ops are often called "Wild Weasel" ops when the WW portion is only one part. It's easy to cite sources that speak of the F-117 operating in WW ops, but that does not mean it operated in the WW role within the op. In this case, we're agreed that the Iron Fist provided by the F-117 is not actually the target that activates the radar, but the fist that kills it. So it both is and is not the "Wild Weasel". This same thing happens with F-22. The hammer can be dropped by any aircraft capable to carry the required anti-radiation missile. In the case where the F-117, F-22 and F-35 act as Iron Fist, their stealth makes them more survivable.

The real question I think you're after is, "do we have any reasons to suppose a stealth craft is used as a target "Wild Weasel" in SEAD ops?" The answer is yes, but I don't think you'll like my sources since they're not on wiki, and it's hard to assess the word of those who know, discussing what is a classified issue. So I can't answer except to point out that there is a huge amount of buzz surrounding the use of the F-35 as a WW, and rumors persist that the follow on of the Tacit Rainbow SEAD Drone is a stealth drone.

So those are rumors, but I hear them from people in the know, so I believe them. However it is fair to say there is only rumor of these stealth drones and planes that emit a fake signature to lure AA batteries into emitting, then go kill them.

Let me turn this around and ask you, what do you think happened to Tacit Rainbow? That ended 20+years ago. You don't think there was a follow on that removed the need for the most dangerous role in SEAD? The only thing missing from Tacit Rainbow was stealth, and now stealth has been applied to many drones. My guess is (and I have not been told this, because my friends who know about classified subjects do not violate their oaths) there is a stealth derivative of the X-47B that emits a fake EM signature to activate radar installations, and then kills it. That is what I would have replaced Tacit Rainbow with, so the whole drone isn't a missile, which would be much too expensive. The drone loiters over the target and triggers it electronically when needed. I'm sorry if I can't however prove to you that drones and fighters can electronically trigger radar systems. That's a classified issue. What do you think, though? Do you honestly doubt stealth craft can mimic real craft signatures? Is that the point of contention?

As per jamming, that's a different issue. You can find thousands of references to stealth craft using jamming, including the F-117, F-22 and F-35. Jamming is a form of creating a fake signature, and again very classified. Still it is easy to find references of stealth craft jamming. All modern fighters include enough EW to try to jam missiles locked on them, and those systems are classified so you can only guess from rumors. Radar tracking and jamming is a constant, daily grind of development, all of which is classified. I only know about it because of my antenna work in the past.

The Holy Grail for all SEAD missions is certainly a single, stealth drone that can loiter over a target and goad it into emitting on command, target it, kill it and return home. Loitering requires stealth, and is key because it affords simultaneous attack on multiple targets without warning, which is a key capability when designing a strike op. I'm convinced we've had this for almost a decade now. Keep in mind that US Military doctrine has always been to appear to have less capability than they have, in contradistinction to the Soviet doctrine during the cold war where they always claimed to have more capability than they actually had. I have no doubt that we fly stealth Tacit Rainbow like drones off all our supercarriers, sufficient to eliminate dozens of radar installations within seconds. Sorry but no, I can't show evidence of this.
 
Last edited:

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
The F-35 Lightning II is slated to gradually replace these aircraft for various air-to-ground roles, including SEAD, beginning with its introduction in 2016. Its stealth capabilities promise a significant increase in effectiveness against air-defence radars, though to maintain its lowest radar signature, its payload capacity would be limited to the internal weapons bays, reducing the number of missile site attacks per sortie. However, it can carry more or larger air to ground weapons internally than even the F-22 and is more advanced in a ground attack capacity, potentially making it the best manned aircraft for destroying sophisticated enemy air defenses. Additionally, the AARGM-ER, itself an evolution of the AGM-88 HARM, is being integrated into all three variants of the F-35.[11][12] The F-35A and F-35C will have the ability to carry the AARGM-ER internally, while the F-35B will only be able to carry the missile externally owing to its smaller internal weapons bays. [13]
Straight from wiki.
Just carrying HARM missiles is not Wild Weasel. That is the "Iron Hand" part of the SEAD mission.
The NGJ may work on the F35 but that hasn't been confirmed.

In more recent conflicts the standoff nature of most ordinance has lessened the importance of the WW mission. In many cases instead of using Wild Weasel craft they just unloaded large numbers of HARM missiles, wasting most of them, for SEAD.

The F-35 is supposed to, among other things, be set up for drone control. It seems more likely the replacement for the EA18 and the F16 in the Wild Weasel mission will be a drone while the F35 hits the radars revealed. The supporting drones could also mount the NGJ as needed, meaning the F-35 wouldn't have to reveal itself to carry out that mission either.

The EF-111 mission (escort jammer) need has been reduced to the point that the Air Force no longer has such a craft. The Air Force's dedicated jammers are now all cargo (like the C130) and civilian airliner frames (707 and now 737.). Yes, they can strap a pod to an F-16 or F-15, but the direction the Air Force appears to be going is hiding instead of jamming, and lighting up your craft with a big FMS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Reaper

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
So there are two issues here. First, there is the rhetorical confusion that SEAD ops are often called "Wild Weasel" ops when the WW portion is only one part. It's easy to cite sources that speak of the F-117 operating in WW ops, but that does not mean it operated in the WW role within the op. In this case, we're agreed that the Iron Fist provided by the F-117 is not actually the target that activates the radar, but the fist that kills it. So it both is and is not the "Wild Weasel". This same thing happens with F-22. The hammer can be dropped by any aircraft capable to carry the required anti-radiation missile. In the case where the F-117, F-22 and F-35 act as Iron Fist, their stealth makes them more survivable.

The real question I think you're after is, "do we have any reasons to suppose a stealth craft is used as a target "Wild Weasel" in SEAD ops?" The answer is yes, but I don't think you'll like my sources since they're not on wiki, and it's hard to assess the word of those who know, discussing what is a classified issue. So I can't answer except to point out that there is a huge amount of buzz surrounding the use of the F-35 as a WW, and rumors persist that the follow on of the Tacit Rainbow SEAD Drone is a stealth drone.

So those are rumors, but I hear them from people in the know, so I believe them. However it is fair to say there is only rumor of these stealth drones and planes that emit a fake signature to lure AA batteries into emitting, then go kill them.

Let me turn this around and ask you, what do you think happened to Tacit Rainbow? That ended 20+years ago. You don't think there was a follow on that removed the need for the most dangerous role in SEAD? The only thing missing from Tacit Rainbow was stealth, and now stealth has been applied to many drones. My guess is (and I have not been told this, because my friends who know about classified subjects do not violate their oaths) there is a stealth derivative of the X-47B that emits a fake EM signature to activate radar installations, and then kills it. That is what I would have replaced Tacit Rainbow with, so the whole drone isn't a missile, which would be much too expensive. The drone loiters over the target and triggers it electronically when needed. I'm sorry if I can't however prove to you that drones and fighters can electronically trigger radar systems. That's a classified issue. What do you think, though? Do you honestly doubt stealth craft can mimic real craft signatures? Is that the point of contention?

As per jamming, that's a different issue. You can find thousands of references to stealth craft using jamming, including the F-117, F-22 and F-35. Jamming is a form of creating a fake signature, and again very classified. Still it is easy to find references of stealth craft jamming. All modern fighters include enough EW to try to jam missiles locked on them, and those systems are classified so you can only guess from rumors. Radar tracking and jamming is a constant, daily grind of development, all of which is classified. I only know about it because of my antenna work in the past.

The Holy Grail for all SEAD missions is certainly a single, stealth drone that can loiter over a target and goad it into emitting on command, target it, kill it and return home. Loitering requires stealth, and is key because it affords simultaneous attack on multiple targets without warning, which is a key capability when designing a strike op. I'm convinced we've had this for almost a decade now. Keep in mind that US Military doctrine has always been to appear to have less capability than they have, in contradistinction to the Soviet doctrine during the cold war where they always claimed to have more capability than they actually had. I have no doubt that we fly stealth Tacit Rainbow like drones off all our supercarriers, sufficient to eliminate dozens of radar installations within seconds. Sorry but no, I can't show evidence of this.
One of the reasons the F-117 was retired was due to not having adequate threat warning receivers. So it wouldn't work in the WW role. (One of the other reasons was that while it was extremely stealthy against high frequency targeting radar, it wasn't very stealthy against low frequency systems, which have become common in search and detection radars.)

The Wild Weasel role, itself, is a very noisy, high skill payoff and very dangerous mission. Their role is to make themselves targets to keep other craft from being targets and or locate enemy sensor systems for destruction, by being targets. (Unofficial motto of the Wild Weasels is "You've got to be shitting me.")
It is why most countries don't really even attempt it.

Jamming is also a very noisy and dangerous mission. Even though, you are mucking up the enemy systems to one degree or another, you are also lighting up a big sign (saying shoot me now) to let people find you.

These missions are the opposite of stealthy.

The role of the Sentinel according to CIG is, and has always been:
The Vanguard Sentinel is a ship that’s designed to fight smart instead of taking enemies head on. The conversion features an AR cockpit, an external e-War pod, decoy missiles and a set of EMP charges. Vanguard Sentinels often provide necessary combat support for combined operations. A lone Sentinel assigned wild weasel tasks is frequently paired with Harbinger bombers and Warden escorts for large attack missions.
The only place I can find any mention of stealth was when they talked about the Sentinel as part of the rework discussion, in one of the videos, where it got stealth components and lighter armor.
It's not mentioned in "And then there were three" in the original Vanguard sales material or on the sales page.

That doesn't mean I didn't miss it, and am willing to be corrected.

The Vanguard was one of two ships that got me to pledge Star Citizen. It is why my original handle is Richard Bong (in case that name escapes people reading this, he was a WWII US Army Air Corps pilot that flew the P-38 and the top scoring US Ace of all time.). I did do quite a bit of reading of all the material I could find on the Vanguard series and the Retaliator. The idea that it was going to have lighter armor and (at the time) under performing components had never even occurred to me.
 

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
So there are two issues here. First, there is the rhetorical confusion that SEAD ops are often called "Wild Weasel" ops when the WW portion is only one part. It's easy to cite sources that speak of the F-117 operating in WW ops, but that does not mean it operated in the WW role within the op. In this case, we're agreed that the Iron Fist provided by the F-117 is not actually the target that activates the radar, but the fist that kills it. So it both is and is not the "Wild Weasel". This same thing happens with F-22. The hammer can be dropped by any aircraft capable to carry the required anti-radiation missile. In the case where the F-117, F-22 and F-35 act as Iron Fist, their stealth makes them more survivable.

The real question I think you're after is, "do we have any reasons to suppose a stealth craft is used as a target "Wild Weasel" in SEAD ops?" The answer is yes, but I don't think you'll like my sources since they're not on wiki, and it's hard to assess the word of those who know, discussing what is a classified issue. So I can't answer except to point out that there is a huge amount of buzz surrounding the use of the F-35 as a WW, and rumors persist that the follow on of the Tacit Rainbow SEAD Drone is a stealth drone.

So those are rumors, but I hear them from people in the know, so I believe them. However it is fair to say there is only rumor of these stealth drones and planes that emit a fake signature to lure AA batteries into emitting, then go kill them.

Let me turn this around and ask you, what do you think happened to Tacit Rainbow? That ended 20+years ago. You don't think there was a follow on that removed the need for the most dangerous role in SEAD? The only thing missing from Tacit Rainbow was stealth, and now stealth has been applied to many drones. My guess is (and I have not been told this, because my friends who know about classified subjects do not violate their oaths) there is a stealth derivative of the X-47B that emits a fake EM signature to activate radar installations, and then kills it. That is what I would have replaced Tacit Rainbow with, so the whole drone isn't a missile, which would be much too expensive. The drone loiters over the target and triggers it electronically when needed. I'm sorry if I can't however prove to you that drones and fighters can electronically trigger radar systems. That's a classified issue. What do you think, though? Do you honestly doubt stealth craft can mimic real craft signatures? Is that the point of contention?

As per jamming, that's a different issue. You can find thousands of references to stealth craft using jamming, including the F-117, F-22 and F-35. Jamming is a form of creating a fake signature, and again very classified. Still it is easy to find references of stealth craft jamming. All modern fighters include enough EW to try to jam missiles locked on them, and those systems are classified so you can only guess from rumors. Radar tracking and jamming is a constant, daily grind of development, all of which is classified. I only know about it because of my antenna work in the past.

The Holy Grail for all SEAD missions is certainly a single, stealth drone that can loiter over a target and goad it into emitting on command, target it, kill it and return home. Loitering requires stealth, and is key because it affords simultaneous attack on multiple targets without warning, which is a key capability when designing a strike op. I'm convinced we've had this for almost a decade now. Keep in mind that US Military doctrine has always been to appear to have less capability than they have, in contradistinction to the Soviet doctrine during the cold war where they always claimed to have more capability than they actually had. I have no doubt that we fly stealth Tacit Rainbow like drones off all our supercarriers, sufficient to eliminate dozens of radar installations within seconds. Sorry but no, I can't show evidence of this.
Tacit rainbow is an interesting concept, and is the basis for my comments on drones filling the WW and jamming role instead of the F35.

The idea of transmitting false signatures is still anti-stealth, because you are transmitting. You are attempting to be seen. Granted seen as something else, but seen nonetheless.

As for ideal Wild Weasel craft, that is a survivable craft that loiters while attracting tracking and targeting radars (and missiles) long enough to identify and deatroy them. (And yes, carrying the ordinance necessary to destroy them.) Stealth is the opposite of what the mission requires.

Wild Weasels are first in last out and drawing fire away from the strike package.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Reaper

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
5,420
15,030
2,975
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
The idea of transmitting false signatures is still anti-stealth, because you are transmitting. You are attempting to be seen. Granted seen as something else, but seen nonetheless.
I think we agree on everything so long as we stipulate you can't be both at once. The point behind having a stealth coating and projecting a false signature is you can then turn that signature off. What you want to do is provoke a targeting radar online by presenting a signature you can switch off once it responds.

And agreed on all you noted as regards frequency. I'm not aware of any stealth systems that operate in the VHF region. Those are long distance early warning radars, and to stealth against them you have to have meta-materials that trap extremely long waves, in a material that is small enough to go into a coating. For that you'd need a meta-material with a dielectric constant in the millions or billions, and colossal dielectric constants are in the low tens of thousands. So yeah, we lost an F-117 over Kosovo because they had a ground based VHF radar with waves long enough to detect but not target the plane, and it flew right overhead. The AA didn't need much luck to hit in that scenario. Stealth can't stop that. Stealth stops targeting radars especially millimeter wave frequencies used in air to air targeting. It makes it so EM based ground missiles and enemy air to air missiles can't lock, or can't lock until they're so close they would have been killed already. So two different things: ground based AA with VHF detection fires a ground based missile with microwave or millimeter wave tracking. Stealth cannot avoid the former, but can avoid the latter. Unfortunately, some AA missiles also use IR tracking, so if you neutralize the EM tracking with stealth, the IR can still get the job done, which I think is what happened in Kosovo.

The longer the wave, the harder to stealth against, but the less imaging, targeting, etc. you get. Mobile systems have hard limits as to how low a frequency they can manipulate. What I was involved in was design of colossal dielectric constant antenna that could put UHF utility into what would normally be constrained to microwave and millimeter wave spaces. That was some revolutionary stuff.
 
Last edited:

Richard Bong

Space Marshal
Jul 29, 2017
2,345
6,526
2,850
RSI Handle
McHale
You are correct that wild weasels do/did (modern stealth changes this) attract missiles but they do it at will by lighting up their radar systems to attract attention and then using anti-radiation missiles to destroy the sam sites prior to the bombers coming in, in SC the Sentinel came with stealth components originally maybe these emissions are with the EMP turned on and charged?
There is a problem with that concept. If emissions are how you are drawing attention they don't need to turn on their active systems on and become targetable in order to track you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Reaper

RoosterRage

Vice Admiral
Donor
Jul 16, 2022
111
330
400
RSI Handle
RoosterRage
There is a problem with that concept. If emissions are how you are drawing attention they don't need to turn on their active systems on and become targetable in order to track you.
My reply was about the current in game emission stats being so high (which after testing they are not), if you turn on your EMP your emissions go up it had nothing to do with game concept since the EMP will be taken from the Sentinel at a later date and be replaced with EMP charges.
 
Forgot your password?