Xenothreat - Ares Ion vs Retaliator and Eclipse

[White Lando]

With Xenothreat coming back, I thought I'd look at some of the numbers of my ships to decide what to use. I currently have an Ares Ion, Retaliator and Eclipse in my hangar and was curious to see how they compare.

Disclaimer: this is only useful when determining damage dealt to the 3x Idris that are a part of this mission but since (apparently) the Ion isn't supposed to shoot anything except capital class ships, that should be obvious. Either way, the torpedo damage is assuming you're using them on an Idris (and are connecting). If you miss with a torpedo (or it's shot down), the DPS numbers plummet.

All of the missiles/torpedoes used in this comparison are EM since I've had the best luck with them connecting and they also hit hard (as of 3.16).

I'm also using the Sustained DPS numbers from Erkul since it's a long battle. I did provide the numbers for 33% power to weapons and 100% (MAX) power settings. These are optimal numbers and assume you're shooting constantly when your capacitors are able.

Ares Ion
SF7E - 2,663 Sustained DPS (3,187 MAX)
Thunderbolt III Missiles (x20) - 93,080 Damage

Aegis Eclipse
M4A - 572 (691 MAX)
Seeker IX (x3) - 1,365,728 Damage

Aegis Retaliator (I left the Laser Repeaters for their increased viability vs Xeno Fighters)
Seeker IX (x6) - 2,731,455 Damage
3x Panther, 2x Badger - 3,611 DPS
3x Panther, 1x Badger - 3,009
3x Panther - 2,396
2x Panther - 1,611
1x Panther - 805


Eclipse vs Ion:

Payload Difference: 1,272,648 damage
Time it would take Ion to break even with it's DPS: 7.96 minutes (6.65 mins if 100% weapons)

If the Eclipse stays and fights instead of leaving to restock: 10.14 minutes (8.5 mins if 100% weapons)

Retaliator vs Ion:

Payload Difference: 2,638,375
Time it would take Ion to break even with it's DPS: 16.5 minutes (13.8 mins if 100% weapons)

I didn't do the time calculations for the Ion to make up ground vs the Retaliator and the number of manned turrets. I got lazy and I'm typing this on my phone. I included the numbers above so you can do the math if you'd like.

In no way am I telling anyone what to fly. I'm probably still going to run my Ion. I was just curious to see the differences. The Tali is a mean rig, though.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

If you look at damage over player time, the Eclipse seems impossible to beat. The Tally is way too vulnerable without turret gunners. I think so long as you can get torps on target by vitue of other players' distractions, the Eclipse rules. Just launch, restock, return, rinse repeat.

 

[Ayeteeone]

@White Lando A fair question, especially since all of these ships have limited application and/or serious drawbacks. So my thoughts -

Which ship really depends on how you want to play. Cliche, yes, but true. Using DPS as a guide is going to be misleading.

Bombers are tools of opportunity, as getting the highest probability of a hit is driven by tactics rather than holding down the fire button. As AI and server performance improve this will be even more evident than it is now. CIG can also be expected to adjust countermeasure and defensive turret effectiveness to suit their 'balance'. So you are fighting the RNG as well as design and performance issues.

The Ion is a DPS machine (vs large and capital ships only). So the important issue here is if you can fly the ship well enough to continually apply full damage. In a fleet environment this includes having friends to engage/clear enemy opposition. There is much LESS RNG, but much MORE TIME required to get to the same damage amount.

The gameplay we see right now is NOT the intended gameplay long term. With Stanton being a 'starter' system the danger will likely be limited, but as we move out the intent is to truly challenge players abilities.

In Pirate Swarm some number of patches ago, the turrets on the Connie's were achieving around a 95% -ish hit rate. It was way too much for the 'average' player and CIG quickly nerfed them. Imagine the turrets on the Idris having that ability, rather than spraying around madly as they do right now.

My personal pick is the Sentinel, kitted with a size 5 laser cannon on the nose for big stuff, and GVSR for smaller. Weapons are switched on or off depending on the target being engaged; they are never used together. I own both Ares, but would only take them out to use knowing someone else would be covering the light fighter/PvP role.

To your original question then, my answer appears to be 'none of the above' if solo, and the Ion if in a group.

 

[Ayeteeone]

@White Lando I wanted to add that I appreciate you doing the math :)

It would be interesting to see what the hit point pool on the Idris actually is, so we could get an idea of how much work it would be for each ship. I've used the Ion (pre-nerf) to solo the Idris in the Arlington Gang mission, but it took a long time to grind it down.

 

[White Lando]

@White Lando I wanted to add that I appreciate you doing the math :)

It would be interesting to see what the hit point pool on the Idris actually is, so we could get an idea of how much work it would be for each ship. I've used the Ion (pre-nerf) to solo the Idris in the Arlington Gang mission, but it took a long time to grind it down.

These are the stats I could find (12/2019): The Idris's shield generators have 2,168,656 health and regenerate at 15,891 hp/s, and the Idris's hull has 1,100,000 hp

I'm not 100% sure those are accurate or current.

 

[Richard Bong]

Previously, I haven't managed to get there in 3.16, it took 5 size 9 torps to connect to kill an Idris. I have been having, roughly, one in 3 torps fly off in a random direction. I have both an Eclipse and a Retaliator.

In the last Xenothreat, I had a bitch of a time getting a lock on an Idris.

I spent most of the last Xenothreat in my Hawk, killing escorts and adding non-decisive damage to the Idris. I also found that EMP in that environment gets you crime stats for friendly fire. With the 3.16 ranges for guns and EMP, I recommend leaving EMP turned off.

I'll probably leave the torps to others and choose none of the above.

 

[Skyre]

Last event I ran an Eclipse with FL-22 laser cannons & stock torps. Never lost one.
I can't underscore enough how handy it is to be able to slip in to the fight, launch a torp, then vanish again. Rinse and repeat, and only needing a friendly station for rearming.

I get why the Ares would also be good, but the Eclipse has it beat for getting through without a scratch.

As for the Tallie, sitting target without a crew, so I've avoided that like the plague.

 

[BUTUZ]

In the last one I ran my 600i with laser cannons & could easily take out the larger support ships and apply significant damage to hemmerheads etc - I think the 3 x S5 did have reasonable effect against the idris.

 

[White Lando]

Previously, I haven't managed to get there in 3.16, it took 5 size 9 torps to connect to kill an Idris. I have been having, roughly, one in 3 torps fly off in a random direction. I have both an Eclipse and a Retaliator.

In the last Xenothreat, I had a bitch of a time getting a lock on an Idris.

I spent most of the last Xenothreat in my Hawk, killing escorts and adding non-decisive damage to the Idris. I also found that EMP in that environment gets you crime stats for friendly fire. With the 3.16 ranges for guns and EMP, I recommend leaving EMP turned off.

I'll probably leave the torps to others and choose none of the above.

What torps have you been using? The Seekers have been really reliable for me. Only times they've not connected were due to getting shot down (vs HH) and I've been drawing fire with the Tali to prevent that. I just fly in and launch them as close as possible then scoot out in not much of a hurry.

I get the "defenseless" take on the Tali but it has so much HP and shields I haven't been close to getting taken out. The thing is a tank.

 

[Aramsolari]

I've given up on getting a lock with my Tali when I take on Idrises.

Fly to about 2km and then dummy lock fire those size 9s. Works well once it's shields are down.

 

[Richard Bong]

What torps have you been using? The Seekers have been really reliable for me. Only times they've not connected were due to getting shot down (vs HH) and I've been drawing fire with the Tali to prevent that. I just fly in and launch them as close as possible then scoot out in not much of a hurry.

I get the "defenseless" take on the Tali but it has so much HP and shields I haven't been close to getting taken out. The thing is a tank.

I have tried each of the types. Hammerheads I can lock all day. For some reason I haven't been able to lock up an Idris.

 

[White Lando]

I have tried each of the types. Hammerheads I can lock all day. For some reason I haven't been able to lock up an Idris.

Oh, right on.

Dummy fire, baby!

 

[Richard Bong]

Oh, right on.

Dummy fire, baby!

I'll leave that for others and fly my Hawk, Sabre or Vanguard, until I can lock an Idris. I'll just use my Eclipse or Retaliator to keep killing Hammerheads and similar in the mean time.

 

[zelange]

Retaliator is enough multi-role if you don't mind the reload it can be handy if the server is empty :

you lack the "dogfighter" feeling but you totally feel your weight in CDF

 

[BUTUZ]

Ooh just wait for our modular cargo bays mmmmmmmm tallycargo

 

[White Lando]

Ooh just wait for our modular cargo bays mmmmmmmm tallycargo

There was also the mention of a medical bay. I like the idea of that if it's tier 2. Fly in with a few empty turrets and fill them with respawned party members if they go down in combat.

Plus you'd still have a bay of torpedoes.

 

[Talonsbane]

So, there's a new XenoThreat event coming in on Feb 3 & I decided to make a request of CIG for future Xeno events. I'd appreciate any likes or comments for it. Thanks in advance.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/xenothreat-dynamic-event/4830304

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Last event I ran an Eclipse with FL-22 laser cannons & stock torps. Never lost one.
I can't underscore enough how handy it is to be able to slip in to the fight, launch a torp, then vanish again. Rinse and repeat, and only needing a friendly station for rearming.

I get why the Ares would also be good, but the Eclipse has it beat for getting through without a scratch.

As for the Tallie, sitting target without a crew, so I've avoided that like the plague.

I think if you're worried about which guns you're probably not optimized. You want to dump as many Seeker IX on target as possible given your playtime, so probably not worth using the guns at all. Just moving to Seekers makes more difference in each pass than using the guns, so leave them off and fly circles fast as you can. Fly the VKs.

#DPSCalculator

Star Citizen tools for DPS, damage, power and cooling simulations including an up to date ships and components database

www.erkul.games

 

[Talonsbane]

In the words of Mr Miyagi, "The best way to not lose fight, not be there."

The best way to win a fight against NPC's, overwhelming numbers & force if possible. Not too many things better than defeating OP NPC's than nerfing them with a server full of whatever ships are on hand between them so you can all share in the joy of victory together. Also, this is still just early alpha, so there's not a lot of thought needed to overly strategize for yet. Cheers!

 

[Skyre]

I think if you're worried about which guns you're probably not optimized. You want to dump as many Seeker IX on target as possible given your playtime, so probably not worth using the guns at all. Just moving to Seekers makes more difference in each pass than using the guns, so leave them off and fly circles fast as you can. Fly the VKs.

#DPSCalculator

Star Citizen tools for DPS, damage, power and cooling simulations including an up to date ships and components database

www.erkul.games

I'm not worried about the guns, but the slow firing/high damage guns just means you can throw a few hits at targets on your way out, if you decide. It can get a tad boring if all youre doing is flying through repeatedly, dropping torps, then leaving. So it's nice to be able to do some damage for personal enjoyment with guns.