Guns. Good or Bad?

[NaffNaffBobFace]

There are very few people that should have the ability to end a life with the push of the button.

Never mind the fact that standing at a range and popping a few rounds into a sliding or stationary target with your earmuffs on doesn't mean you can hit a moving target. Tack on the fact that most sane people would react frantically when under fire.

This idea that more guns is a good idea is predicated on the idea that everyone has a "Billy the Kid" complex and has the balls to stand up amongst the flying bullets, and take out the correct shooter with markmanship precision as opposed to some other "Billy the Kid" who is also waving a gun around like he's some kind of hero.

If you are anti gun laws you are in my opinion compliant in these children deaths.
If you are for more guns you are quite simply a [CONCERN].

Hi @Passeeo, many thanks for your observations some interesting ones there in regard to compliance.

If I could just ask you remove the personal comment on the end, this has been a civilized discussion so far :slight_smile: You are just as entitled to your opinion as anyone else in this discussion and you have bought some powerful points, but no need for provocation, this isn't the 70's that kinda stuff doesn't really work anymore.

EDIT - Many thanks for the edit, I think your post now reads much stronger - that is a powerful final line and is still your honest opinion.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."- Ben Franklin

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

There is also a longer version which in this case also seems to ring true:

"Whilst men are linked together, they easily and speedily communicate the alarm of any evil design. They are enabled to fathom it with common counsel, and to oppose it with united strength. Whereas, when they lie dispersed, without concert, order, or discipline, communication is uncertain, counsel difficult, and resistance impracticable. Where men are not acquainted with each other’s principles, nor experienced in each other’s talents, nor at all practised in their mutual habitudes and dispositions by joint efforts in business; no personal confidence, no friendship, no common interest, subsisting among them; it is evidently impossible that they can act a public part with uniformity, perseverance, or efficacy. In a connection, the most inconsiderable man, by adding to the weight of the whole, has his value, and his use; out of it, the greatest talents are wholly unserviceable to the public. No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavours, are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united cabals of ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

–Edmund Burke, Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents 82-83 (1770) in: Select Works of Edmund Burke, vol. 1, p. 146 (Liberty Fund ed. 1999).

That was written 200 years ago - it is 6 years older than America itself.

No one person is going to solve this. Everyone has to chip in to get it under control. More guns just escalates the issue bringing different tactics that the solution to which will be... what? more guns?

So... What are we you going to do about it?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

But honestly I am kinda done talking about it, you have made it very clear you are not open to my ideas, and I am not open to yours. so there is really nothing more to be gained from a discourse.

Hi, only just noticed this - You're absolutely right, we've been looping points which were covered in the first few pages of this thread so discourse seems to have little to be gained - and would in a normal thread, but on this occasion "Agreeing to disagree" costs more and more lives that we all agree should not be lost.

This thread itself dies off as we come to a consensus that Guns are a part of America and that isn't going to change, but nothing gets done and the next mass shooting report that reaches my shores I post in here and we ride the same old merry-go-round again.

So everyone has a gun? It escalates, it doesn't solve. The shooter just changes their tactics to put them in lethal range and anyone with a gun firing back out of range like that shooter at the Navada concert firing from a hotel room, people in the crowd could have fired back with hand guns and it would have done nothing.

In Gun We Trust? How to react to that? Escalate and allow everyone at a concert to carry a long barrel rifle for self protection? In Gun We Trust?

Something, anything needs to be done. So what'll it be? Because more guns just means more guns and escalation. To quote a line from a film "Evil begats Evil Mr. President, shooting only makes it stronger."

So how about this:

Arm the teachers AND make a national database of owners while reinstating the law that says "No" to people with mental issues owning guns... How about that? Instead of doing nothing, DO ALL THE THINGS because right now anything is going to be better than nothing.

 

[Jolly_Green_Giant]

Keep arguing. Were at an Impasse for a reason. When it comes to gun control, yes I want us to DO NOTHING. When it comes to addressing mental health I want us to do everything. You know what that does? It not only addresses the "gun problem" but oh my god so many other problems in our country as well. "Gun control" is so fucking narrow minded and political it makes me sick. You can bring up "well this mental health bill was repealed by Trump!". I'm glad it was repealed because it was stripping people of their rights without enough information to warrant it. Yes I will say that again NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION TO INTRODUCE A BILL THAT WOULD STRIP PEOPLE OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. It was unconstitutional. If you say "well we can just amend it" in regards to the bill of rights like it's no fucking big deal then you obviously have no Idea of what makes our country so great. Thank god I'm an American citizen and can vote on what happens in my country.

 

[Zadig]

I have started a new thread for this discussion as the Vegas Shooting thread is not the place to have a serious to-and-fro about the public ownership of Guns being Good or Bad.

So here it is.

I have started the thread so shall remain impartial and will not say which side I fall on.

Anonymous Poll, only two options. All other voting options are in the link below:

https://testsquadron.com/threads/the-ultimate-poll.9941/

So, have at it. I saw plenty of Pro Gun ownership in the Vagas Thread from people who grew up around gun ownership, but as I said that really isn't the place to take a contradictory stance or hijack.

So go nuts here.

I agree with this guy here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I agree with this guy here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

I've only just found out there is a second part to that sketch:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

THANKS JOHNATHAN!

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Keep arguing. Were at an Impasse for a reason.

No reason not to, last time we came to the conclusion Guns are part of the US national identity and aren't going to go away so lets try to get somewhere this time.

"Gun control" is so fucking narrow minded and political it makes me sick. You can bring up "well this mental health bill was repealed by Trump!". I'm glad it was repealed because it was stripping people of their rights without enough information to warrant it. Yes I will say that again NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION TO INTRODUCE A BILL THAT WOULD STRIP PEOPLE OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. It was unconstitutional.

Cool. Lets take a look at the Second Amendment, as I'm from outa town I have no idea about it. I've heared "Second Amendment" many times in this discussion but have not actually read up on it. I may be a bit bumpkin so you'll have to correct me if i'm mistaken:

Q) So what does the Second Amendment, a constitutional right, actually say?

A) "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Okay, so the second amendment is about ensuring a well-regulated Militia is present because it is a necessity in ensuring the security of the free states, so the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed to enable that Militia to exist. Says it right there. Seems like a "Well Regulated Militia" is required to ensure that the right to bear arms can exist so no Militia, no right.

Q) The first question I should ask is does the US actually still have a Militia 200 years on?

A) Well as it turns out yes, according to the Militia Act 1903 it has two: the Orginised Militia and the Unorginised Militia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903

• Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia. (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)

• Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.

All good there, I could argue this one all I like, there are Militias so the Second Amendment is still valid - the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If you are not in the Orginised, you are in the Unorginised as long as you are the right age.

Q) So what is meant by a "Well Regulated Militia"?

A) James Madison: “A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.” 1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789
https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-terms-‘arms’-‘well-regulated’-and-‘militia’-mean-in-the-Second-Amendment?share=1

Thanks James, that clears that up, it's composed of the people trained to arms...

This now brings questions I can't find obvious answers to:

Q) As the Second Amendment was written about maintaining a Militia, and every person between 17 and 45 is in the unorginised militia automatically, my question is does the second amendment, stating specifically "Well-Regulated" require every citizen who has the constitutional requirement to bear arms to be trained in those arms as the above quote from James suggests?

Considering this is the Constitution I take it every American wishing to bear arms would be happy to submit to certain "well regulated" Milita regulations (because the Milita has to be well-regulated, its written right there in the Second Amendment) like passing a firearms safety test to prove they are trained to arms, earning themselves a firearm license or other regulatory issued permit to prove they have been OK'd by the Milita to act on their behalf? As the Second Amendment is about maintaining a Well-Regulated Militia, it suggests that if a citizen hasn't had the training they are not part of the militia, and if they are not part of it does the amendment right to arms actually cover them? Remember the assumption is that everyone is in the Militia so "the right of people to bear arms" assumes they are all Militia members.

Also:

Q) The Unorginised Militia has an age limit. 17 to 45. Before the age of 17 do children have the right of access to arms considering they are not yet considered part of the Militia? And do those over the age of 45 who are not part of the Organised National Guard militia loose their protection under the Second Amendment, which is about the maintenance of a standing Militia?

Q) What disqualifies a person from Militia membership? Having a criminal record has been bought up as a disqualifier from owning a gun so I assume disqualifies from Militia membership? What else would? Being nuts would probably, but as the repeal, it doesn't seem to disqualify from gun ownership? In short a bit of consistency would probably help everyone. and as the Second Amendment is about creating a militia, would it be good to base gun ownership on ones validity of ones being part of a "Well Regulated" militia?

Cheers :slight_smile:

 

[Grisha]

So I am probably going to be called a commie, but I'm in favor of the starship troopers model, whereby citizenship is tied directly to a form of public service, be it civil or military. Citizenship isn't required (you can still live here as a US national), but certain things like voting and elegibility to be a militia member would be exclusive to those who have earned it .

 

[Vavrik]

So I am probably going to be called a commie, but I'm in favor of the starship troopers model, whereby citizenship is tied directly to a form of public service, be it civil or military. Citizenship isn't required (you can still live here as a US national), but certain things like voting and elegibility to be a militia member would be exclusive to those who have earned it .

Commie! Actually no. This is not something unique to communist countries. There is plenty of historical precedent for mandatory service, in all known forms of Government. The US actually never had mandatory service, but they did employ conscription on many occasions.

 

[ColdDog]

Tracking and regulation on accessibility to fertilizer is what we you are doing in regard to explosives - So what are you going to do about mass shootings? No tracking of who has what gun currently, how about basic tracking which could identify a stockpiler, for instance, who could then be investigated with nothing more than a home-visit to see if they have a collection that is stored properly or a stockpile that is ready for war.

I already gave you the answer... tools do not kill people... people do. Listen, I am with you, there are a lot of sick people in this world. I could ask you the same question in the UK... what are you going to do about Terrorists? Does that mean you take the right away from people to be Muslim because it is the common tool or excuse used to kill, of course not. Not all Muslims are bad, should the whole population be removed because of a couple crazies? That is the same people problem we face with guns - all over the world, especially in the 3rd world. Besides, this isn't your fight... it is easy to be a spectator and try to analyze another culture and be critical (Chinese do it all the time - called Sinocentrism)... UK always has caused its share of suffering and problems in the world. I do not see why you need to throw stones and tell us what is wrong when we know was the problem is. Americans WILL NOT give up their guns and since you know America so well do you know what it takes to change the constitution (every state must ratify it)? - sorry you cant take no for answer. Heck, there is an argument that claims the UK is responsible for the second amendment in the constitution because of their unethical treatment of American colonists prior to the revolutionary war by Great Briton.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I've done my best to rationalize this for you but we are going to have to agree to disagree I suppose. I wish you the best with stopping gun violence in the US.

 

[Blind Owl]

Guns are neither good, nor bad. They are inanimate objects, that if left untouched will in time turn into a pile of rust, harming nothing.

Guns are not the problem, people are the problem. When people begin to show a callous disdain for human life, when the constant newsfeed of all the woes of the planet begin to numb peoples sensibilities, when people have turned their backs on faith (not religion mind you, faith), then you are going to have occurrences where people do bad things, and bad people do unthinkable things.

You cannot regulate evil.

Well said. I concur wholeheartedly. I think society in general is spiraling into darkness. Having all the happenings of the world available instantly has created a lack of empathy and a huge amount of apathy. The value of human life is being degraded exponentially.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I already gave you the answer... tools do not kill people... people do.

Yes, I know, hence my excellent AutoTurrets idea, let the Guns watch over us, let the Guns look after us.

In Gun We Trust.

Listen, I am with you, there are a lot of sick people in this world.

I know, and you have put your points eloquently. I admit I have ignored some of your responses just as I'm sure you have ignored some of mine (Ammonium Nitrate restrictions, for instance).

I've not said anyone who advocates keeping things the way they are hasn't accepted there is a problem - I think every single responder has said these massacres are not what public access to guns is about in the USA, which is a good thing, no one has turned around and said children's lives cut short in classrooms are a reasonable price for easy access to guns.

I could ask you the same question in the UK... what are you going to do about Terrorists? Does that mean you take the right away from people to be Muslim because it is the common tool or excuse used to kill, of course not.

wait... Wasn't the Trump administration stopped from trying this with that travel ban by judges? ;)

Besides, this isn't your fight... it is easy to be a spectator and try to analyze another culture and be critical (Chinese do it all the time - called Sinocentrism)...

Well, when an atrocity is so big it arrives on my TV screen from 3000 miles away, I may not be an expert on American Culture but surely the Land of the Free would allow me my opinion? ;)

UK always has caused its share of suffering and problems in the world. I do not see why you need to throw stones and tell us what is wrong when we know was the problem is. Americans WILL NOT give up their guns and since you know America so well do you know what it takes to change the constitution (every state must ratify it)?

Well I can't deny any of the above, however I just want to note again I am not advocating removing guns. As said previously the last time this thread was active after the Nevada incident, American culture is not going to give them up. What I am saying is some states don't even require you register a weapon. Some don't require you report if you loose or have your gun stolen. This is not a "Well-Regulated" Militia. Do what the Amendment says and it may not end killings, but it might just reduce the amount. One less massacre would be a step in the right direction and that isn't happening if we just agree to disagree and nothing happens. Lets agree to do something this time.

sorry you cant take no for answer.

Well, i've reached my limit you see. There have just been too many dead kids.

Heck, there is an argument that claims the UK is responsible for the second amendment in the constitution because of their unethical treatment of American colonists prior to the revolutionary war by Great Briton.

I'll happily take that blame for creating the presence of the Second Amendment if it makes America sit up and do something, even if that is just a national ownership register. You have to register your car, why not your gun? Kill that colonial legacy and do what America does really well: Take something that exists and make it better and more efficient. The US can do it, just look at the Apple iPod and iPad, awesome work.

I've done my best to rationalize this for you but we are going to have to agree to disagree I suppose. I wish you the best with stopping gun violence in the US.

Thank you. And thank you for perceiving and discussing and providing your viewpoint from within the US itself.

But you know I'll be here the next time there is a Mass Shooting in the US reported on my UK newscasts, and the next time, and the next time, and the next time. And we'll have the same discussions, we'll ride that Merry-Go-Round and loop the loops until we reach the "Agree to disagree" point just like we did after Nevada. And now 14 kids and 3 teachers are dead. Would they still be alive if something was done after Nevada? We can't know, but I wish someone had just tried.

 

[sum1]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

yes and if I (a good man) had a gun and a bad man came after me I could do something.

In Gun We Trust? How to react to that? Escalate and allow everyone at a concert to carry a long barrel rifle for self protection? In Gun We Trust?

No I do not trust guns, anyone who knows anything does not trust guns. they trust their own ability to defend themselves not a cop that will be their5 mins too late. see video above on why no one robs a gun store. I find it ironic that the politicians and media pushing this agenda have armed guards protecting them and their kids when they are saying the rest of us can use a sign.

Debunking a lot of gun myths.

the short verson.

 

[ColdDog]

In Gun We Trust.

No, I am not going to allow you to twist the arguments. Without people guns have no value. Without guns people will just find another means to an end like a biological weapon.

So you want to trust - autoturrets (something that shoot indiscriminately) - something thought of as bad (like Mao) automatically gets destroyd... this says a lot about your mind. Unless you are lazy.

I know, and you have put your points eloquently. I admit I have ignored some of your responses just as I'm sure you have ignored some of mine (Ammonium Nitrate restrictions, for instance).

I did not respond to your Ammonium Nitrate example because I thought it was insignificant, a stretch of truth, based on my peroxide example - I can get at ANY store, event the UK.

Well, i've reached my likit you see. There have just been too many dead kids.

I find it funny that you are so concern about our dead kids and not protesting evil actions like Darfur or Joseph Kony..
http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/darfur-genocide

or

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/07/joseph-kony-united-nations-report

Honestly, your arrogance, naivete, ignorance or all of the former is showing (nothing personal... just an observation).

But you know I'll be here the next time there is a Mass Shooting in the US reported on my UK newscasts, and the next time, and the next time, and the next time. And we'll have the same discussions, we'll ride that Merry-Go-Round and loop the loops until we reach the "Agree to disagree" point just like we did after Nevada. And now 14 kids and 3 teachers are dead. Would they still be alive if something was done after Nevada? We can't know, but I wish someone had just tried.

Yeah, next time there is a terroist attack in London, I'll let you know too. Maybe, you can use your logic with the Muslims... just ban them.

I is sad... no question about it... and from your perspective I can appreciate your concern. But again, you have no say other than propaganda via the internet. As a world citizen you have a voice, but you do not have a say at the US voting booth, nor do I in the UK.

Again, I appreciate your fight, but I think you can also look at people who really need it that do not have a voice. We are going to look long and hard at our US gun laws because of this incident, not because someone from the UK has a higher moral belief. I would expect a significant increase in mental health evaluations, FBI actually listening to REAL domestic treats and not just political ones, possibly another assault weapons ban. We are going through difficult times... someone who remembers Columbine, because I lived in Littleton Colorado when it happened - it affected my neighborhood and community. So I know what I am talking about unlike you.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

yes and if I (a good man) had a gun and a bad man came after me I could do something.

Title of the video - "Instant Justice" Is the punishment for robbery in the US execution by firing squad? I thought it was an average of 10 years in prison. I do note from the Youtube description that the guy lying on the ground died at the scene. He wasn't a good guy to be holding a shop up, but Justice? I read 2000AD and it smacks of Judge Dredd.

No I do not trust guns, anyone who knows anything does not trust guns. they trust their own ability to defend themselves not a cop that will be their5 mins too late. see video above on why no one robs a gun store. I find it ironic that the politicians and media pushing this agenda have armed guards protecting them and their kids when they are saying the rest of us can use a sign.

Debunking a lot of gun myths.

the short verson.

Agenda... I think that could be said of both sides. The "Fuck off, I like Guns" side has the agenda of keeping them no matter what and the "Piles Of Dead Children" side obviously have their reasons too... the agenda for stricter control is being pushed so often probably because massacres happen so often. In the first 45 days of this year there were 18 mass shootings. Thats one every 2.5 days. That was reported in the UK print news, why am I seeing this on my side of the Atlantic if it is not a problem?

Yeah your 54 seconds guy may have a point guns save an estimated million, he may have a point that mass shootings are going down, and if so keep it up, but one every 2.5 days pails in comparison to zero in Australia since 1996. Even if we got it down to one a week in America it'll be tens of thousands of lives saved on top of the million already saved by the presence of guns in the hands of responsible people.

 

[sum1]

Title of the video - "Instant Justice" Is the punishment for robbery in the US execution by firing squad? I thought it was an average of 10 years in prison. I do note from the Youtube description that the guy lying on the ground died at the scene. He wasn't a good guy to be holding a shop up, but Justice? I read 2000AD and it smacks of Judge Dredd.

Agenda... I think that could be said of both sides. The "Fuck off, I like Guns" side has the agenda of keeping them no matter what and the "Piles Of Dead Children" side obviously have their reasons too... the agenda for stricter control is being pushed so often probably because massacres happen so often. In the first 45 days of this year there were 18 mass shootings. Thats one every 2.5 days. That was reported in the UK print news, why am I seeing this on my side of the Atlantic if it is not a problem?

Yeah your 54 seconds guy may have a point guns save an estimated million, he may have a point that mass shootings are going down, and if so keep it up, but one every 2.5 days pails in comparison to zero in Australia since 1996. Even if we got it down to one a week in America it'll be tens of thousands of lives saved on top of the million already saved by the presence of guns in the hands of responsible people.

hey, you want to go point a gun at someone and then bitch about getting your ass shot? that is just plain ass stupid. THERE WERE NOT 18 FUCKING MASS SHOOTING THIS YEAR!!!!! I ALREADY DEBUNKED THAT MYTH (to you). (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2018/feb/15/jeff-greenfield/mostly-false-18-us-school-shootings-so-far-2018-an/)

So ban cars because they kill more kids than guns ever do? so ban knife because they kill more kids than rifles? So ban Muslims because a small subset of their community goes blowing up groups of people and kill kids in greater numbers anything else? and guess what over 60% of the Australians that had guns before the buyback did not turn them in and still have them. And guess what mass killing is a thing in Australia as well! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia including 8 kids targeted and killed in 2014. So yes there is a issue with fucked up people doing fucked up shit, and I hate that it happens to be violence and killing has been around for all of human (hupeople for Canadians @Blind Owl ) history. the issue is not fucking guns, and taking guns or limiting the guns of lawful gun owners will NEVER make the world a safer place, in fact, you are much more likely to die in a "gun free" zone or nation from voilance then you are where everyone and their grandma is packing heat. Now I am in favor of some gun laws, but only if it affects people (like violent felons) that have already shown the no respect for human life. but at the end of the day, I am more afraid of a tyrannical government then I am of a person with a gun. as Communism alone has killed 100 million of it's own people in 100 years, and socalism has not done much better.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

No, I am not going to allow you to twist the arguments.

Ah, sorry. I was not aware we were arguing. I was discussing.

Without people guns have no value. Without guns people will just find another means to an end like a biological weapon.

We are looping here, Dunblane mass school shooting in 1996, ban controls tightened, no one has used a biological weapon or anything else in the 22 years since. We've already gone over that.

So you want to trust - autoturrets (something that shoot indiscriminately) - something thought of as bad (like Mao) automatically gets destroyd...

Nope, as said in my original post about autoturrets I don't want to but it is the only solution I can see that takes people out of the equasion. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But people won't give up their guns. Guns do save people, so the logical step is to let the guns look over us, let the guns look after us.

In Gun We Trust.

The reason I went to those extreme levels is because those who wish to retain guns at all cost are not even interested in discussing the possibility of an ownership register to keep tabs on who has what. What harm to your buying guns is there in that? But over and over the response is You Are Not Taking My Guns. Well i'm not suggesting that.

I'm suggesting we come up with a way of stopping those who would want to shoot up a classroom full of kids getting guns.

this says a lot about your mind. Unless you are lazy.

Just as I asked Passeeo to delete a personal comment, please refrain from making personal comments. This has been a delightfully enlightened conversation so far and you devalue your point if you resort to name calling. Thank you for your cooperation :slight_smile:

I did not respond to your Ammonium Nitrate example because I thought it was insignificant, a stretch of truth, based on my peroxide example - I can get at ANY store, event the UK.

Fair enough. You can't deny they are not trying to restrict access to it though.

I find it funny that you are so concern about our dead kids and not protesting evil actions like Darfur or Joseph Kony..
http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/darfur-genocide

or

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/07/joseph-kony-united-nations-report

Honestly, your arrogance, naivete, ignorance or all of the former is showing (nothing personal... just an observation).

Again please refrain from making personal comments. This has been a delightfully enlightened conversation so far and you devalue your point if you resort to name calling. Thank you for your cooperation :slight_smile:

Yeah, next time there is a terroist attack in London, I'll let you know too.

Again we are looping. This was a point earlier in the thread, again I point out this was a disgruntled and unhinged teenager who had been expelled from school, not an international network of terrorists cells with training centers etc. It was just a 17 year old boy.

It is sad... no question about it... and from your perspective I can appreciate your concern. But again, you have no say other than propaganda via the internet. As a world citizen you have a voice, but you do not have a say at the US voting booth, nor do I in the UK.

In my time I have had a great experience of being able to put the right ideas in the right heads at the right time to effect positive change in the workplaces, educational establishments and forums I have been a part of. Perhaps it was "arrogance, naivete, ignorance" that made me think perhaps 2018 was the year for the idea of keeping guns and seriously reducing the amount of deaths could be a thing. Perhaps I'll try again next year.

Again, I appreciate your fight, but I think you can also look at people who really need it that do not have a voice. We are going to look long and hard at our US gun laws because of this incident, not because someone from the UK has a higher moral belief. I would expect a significant increase in mental health evaluations, FBI actually listening to REAL domestic treats and not just political ones, possibly another assault weapons ban. We are going through difficult times... someone who remembers Columbine, because I lived in Littleton Colorado when it happened - it affected my neighborhood and community.

Great to hear you feel there is going to be change and reevaluation. Hopefully discussions like this will soon become a thing of the past when we can say instead "Yes there was an atrocity today but unlike five years ago this is the exception, not the rule". At that point Thoughts and Prayers will have a lot more weight, as used sparingly they to have power.

 

[ColdDog]

Again please refrain from making personal comments. This has been a delightfully enlightened conversation so far and you devalue your point if you resort to name calling. Thank you for your cooperation :slight_smile:

Again, I do not understand... or does not compute... what is the purpose of me deleting something that you quoted?

 

[Varku]

yes and if I (a good man) had a gun and a bad man came after me I could do something.

No I do not trust guns, anyone who knows anything does not trust guns. they trust their own ability to defend themselves not a cop that will be their5 mins too late. see video above on why no one robs a gun store. I find it ironic that the politicians and media pushing this agenda have armed guards protecting them and their kids when they are saying the rest of us can use a sign.

Sorry, but that Video is nothing but disgusting and has nothing to do with justice.
Yes, he "defended" his property, but at what cost?
I don't know if the Thief is dead, but at least he is injured to a point where his life is in danger.
this is not acceptable to me, yeah he did something wrong and dumb, but the penalty can't be death.
Especially since the shooter didn't even try to deescalate the situation. and for what? a few hundred bucks? seriously?

Videos like this are just a reminder to me, why it's good to have hard restrictions on gun ownership.
I can't imagine that something like this can happen in Germany.
And if it happens it's properly a once in a decade thing.
Yes, we also have a lot of crime here in Europe, but it's rare to get killed by crime.
Because you know, it's hard work to kill someone when you don't have gun...

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

hey, you want to go point a gun at someone and then bitch about getting your ass shot? that is just plain ass stupid. THERE WERE NOT 18 FUCKING MASS SHOOTING THIS YEAR!!!!! I ALREADY DEBUNKED THAT MYTH (to you). (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2018/feb/15/jeff-greenfield/mostly-false-18-us-school-shootings-so-far-2018-an/)

No, thats 18 Mass Shootings. I apologise I moved on a little as your videos had a guy talking about mass shootings in general, not just schools. My source for mass shootings: http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/15/many-mass-shootings-america-2018-7314649/

So ban cars because they kill more kids than guns ever do? so ban knife because they kill more kids than rifles?

Sorry, looping, we have been over this several times in previous comments in this thread, please refer to them.

So ban Muslims because a small subset of their community goes blowing up groups of people and kill kids in greater numbers anything else?

As the Trump administration tried to do with the travel ban which was overturned by Judges?

and guess what over 60% of the Australians that had guns before the buyback did not turn them in and still have them.

And guess what, there are 1.8 million registered licensed guns in the UK. It's not how many there are, it's who's using them for what.

And guess what mass killing is a thing in Australia as well! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia including 8 kids targeted and killed in 2014.

So using your list as authorative, 18 mass killings since 1991 (27 years) in Australia vs 18 mass killings in 45 days in the USA. Sorry, the numbers just don't stack up.

Now I am in favor of some gun laws, but only if it affects people (like violent felons) that have already shown the no respect for human life...

I don't mean to offend you by asking this, but you are aware that is what i'm calling for by saying there should be a register?