Brawler Tactics

[Shadow Reaper]

So I did a little thumbnail calculation. The Razor yaws at >120*/s, so can complete a full circle in under 3 seconds. It accelerates Y-lateral about 120 m/s so over 360m in 3 seconds. That gives a turn radius with nose pointed in (at the target) of about 55 meters.

That's big enough for a Void Bomber to fit inside, or a Star G, or a lot of other targets. What this means is, you can circle the target on your Y axis with those nasty Hellion Scatterguns tearing ass on your target, and cross a defensive turret's shooting horizon in less than a second. At that range, a turret gunner cannot get target acquisition in under a second, so the turrets are useless.

Would love to see vid of someone flying the death loop on a target. That tiny bird does 1,800 DPS and all the scattergun pellets will hit every time. You might just cut right through the hull of a big ship this way.

 

[Ammorn]

You wouldn't quite be able to do that tight of a orbit with a moving target, the faster the target the faster you'll have to travel on one side of the orbit. You should still be able to mess them up though.

 

[Kiladyn]

situational that would be scary. Depending on what was going on and size differences of ships I may just boost so they crash into me. Or try and run to get range for gunners.

 

[8rawler]

I feel compelled to post something...

 

[Printimus]

I thought you had to be looking at your target in order to shoot them? How can you look at them if you are flying circles around them?

 

[FZD]

That's big enough for a Void Bomber to fit inside, or a Star G, or a lot of other targets. What this means is, you can circle the target on your Y axis with those nasty Hellion Scatterguns tearing ass on your target, and cross a defensive turret's shooting horizon in less than a second. At that range, a turret gunner cannot get target acquisition in under a second, so the turrets are useless.

Well, a turret gunner doesn't need to get a lock on you, if you just circle the target, the gunner can just shoot one spot in your path and you'll get fried.

I'm more worried about the million and a half blind spots on larger ships, big enough to fit half of all TEST auroras.

I guess the conclusion is the same, turrets are useless.

 

[O-Lefty]

A couple large ships covering each other with a couple fighter escorts is the way to go. Going alone is a good way to get picked off.

Those small guns are annoying but for a fully equipped large ship I don't think you'll be doing much with 2xS1 anything.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I thought you had to be looking at your target in order to shoot them? How can you look at them if you are flying circles around them?

Yes, this is the point. You aim directly at the target, and strafe up, when you yaw down. This will put you into a natural circle, the diameter of which is defined by the curvature you make by the strafe and yaw. This keeps your nose on target at all times. You can't do this against a small ship. Needs a big target, and you'll be adjusting second by second to stay close to a loop but not a perfect loop. The idea is you're not close enough in to collide with the target, but you're not far enough away to be in their view for more than a second. This is a brawler tactic from the earliest Mechwarrior days. I did this thousands of times running a fast Black Knight with all pulse lasers. The bigger and slower the target, the more you own them. Fighting at closest range is a "brawler" skill that optimizes shortest range weapons, which typically hit harder than weapons with greater range--and this is so in SC.

Well, a turret gunner doesn't need to get a lock on you, if you just circle the target, the gunner can just shoot one spot in your path and you'll get fried.

An opponent turret gunner could do that if he knew what you were doing, but he doesn't. All the turret gunner would note is you appear suddenly once every three seconds, if you made more than 3-4 loops, he might get wise to your technique and fire blindly expecting you to appear, but then again he might not, and since you'll move along other axes, you won't necessarily appear over the same turret twice. You can avoid them by strafing left and right, and in fact you'll need to strafe sideways if your target ship is moving. The Razor strafe's left and right at about the cruse speed of many big ships--about 100m/s, so you can keep up with moving ships this way.

Those small guns are annoying but for a fully equipped large ship I don't think you'll be doing much with 2xS1 anything.

Depends how much time you have over target. Hellions do huge damage for any size gun, especially when all your pellets will hit the target. Max damage with ammo on the Razor is 86,400 damage, and it is all against the hull of the target. That's 160 rounds depleted in just 96 seconds. Given it is focused on one section of ship you could kill almost anything this way. It's quite possible you could kill a Vanduul Kingship this way. Needs a legendary pilot with mythic piloting skills, but gains 'verse-wide notoriety.

I'll bet marcsand2 could do this.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I've had that issue flying a Vanguard Warden, whenever anything gets within your turning circle that's that they can just orbit and kick your ass. At the moment the Meta ship is the Arrow with 3 size 3 scatter guns - it gets close quick, strafes faster than you can turn and takes you down. I have no ship that can survive it, my Warden went in 30 seconds, my Constellation only lasted longer because they took the time to strip my engines before finishing me off.

I'm thinking EMP may be the answer for this - If something gets close enough in to avoid your guns they are going to be in range of the EMP. Fry their ass and as they drift helplessly get them in your sites and pour on the pain from your canons. A Vanguard Sentinel may do very well with that tactic.

That said the new upcoming flight model is supposed to nip strafing in the bud for anything but the Xi'An ships - the main thrusters will be the main power and the Manuvering thrusters will no longer be able to propel you at the same speed as the mains in any direction. You will still be able to do decouple so get up to speed, shut down the thrust and then use your whiole ship as a giant turret.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I've had that issue flying a Vanguard Warden, whenever anything gets within your turning circle that's that they can just orbit and kick your ass. At the moment the Meta ship is the Arrow with 3 size 3 scatter guns - it gets close quick, strafes faster than you can turn and takes you down. I have no ship that can survive it, my Warden went in 30 seconds. . .

Yeah. Close range weapons are hell on wheels when in range. I recommend put any of the Scatterguns in your dorsal turret, since they can track a brawler so long as you keep ventral facing. The Hardpoint tool has me very curious about the DR Model XJ2. That gives the turret 2016 dps, and 410 distortion. Seems plausible to me you could take out an Arrow with a single volley. I can't tell what sort of weapon that is, but it may be a scattergun. Is very short range though, and fits the Warden Turret. https://starcitizen.tools/DR_Model-XJ2

Truth told though, with birds like that you know want to get close, I would just use an S3 missile. Shouldn't take more than one and the Warden carries 8. Viper IIIs lock in 2 seconds. Would be good to see what can shake them at any range, but S3's can kill little birds at 7-9km, so they never get close.

Hardpoint.io - Star Citizen ship fitting and comparison tool

Web application for planning and comparing loadouts of Star Citizen ships with detailed component breakdown and summary statistics.

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[Vavrik]

I've had that issue flying a Vanguard Warden, whenever anything gets within your turning circle that's that they can just orbit and kick your ass. At the moment the Meta ship is the Arrow with 3 size 3 scatter guns - it gets close quick, strafes faster than you can turn and takes you down. I have no ship that can survive it, my Warden went in 30 seconds, my Constellation only lasted longer because they took the time to strip my engines before finishing me off.

Where is your wingman while this is going on?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Where is your wingman while this is going on?

Tend to be on servers on my lonesome.

 

[Vavrik]

Tend to be on servers on my lonesome.

I think this is a bigger problem than you know, you know?

 

[Printimus]

Yes, this is the point. You aim directly at the target, and strafe up, when you yaw down. This will put you into a natural circle, the diameter of which is defined by the curvature you make by the strafe and yaw. This keeps your nose on target at all times. You can't do this against a small ship. Needs a big target, and you'll be adjusting second by second to stay close to a loop but not a perfect loop. The idea is you're not close enough in to collide with the target, but you're not far enough away to be in their view for more than a second. This is a brawler tactic from the earliest Mechwarrior days. I did this thousands of times running a fast Black Knight with all pulse lasers. The bigger and slower the target, the more you own them. Fighting at closest range is a "brawler" skill that optimizes shortest range weapons, which typically hit harder than weapons with greater range--and this is so in SC.

Yeah, i think the whole yaw/s thing is for when you are flying straight forward, not strafing. Your strafe engines are not going to be anywhere near as powerful as your main engine which is why I think CIG layed out the segregation between the two types of engines. This is basic flight principles, which is what I think CIG is after, especially after this new flight model. But maybe I am wrong, guess you will have to try it out in game and tell us how your "brawler tactics" work out.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Yeah. BTW, my bad. . .I wrote "yaw" when I should have written "pitch" and I'm sure that could have been confusing.

I did the basic calc based upon the strafe Y axis lateral acceleration listed on the ships page for the Razor. It has an unusually high acceleration, so can make the circle pretty quickly. I did an aproximation though, and it does not account for skid. Could be the bird cannot orbit quite that fast, and you're absolutely right--the real test is to fly the loop. Certainly though, small, high powered birds like the Razor will be better at this than larger, heavier birds that skid through turns like the Vanguards. You can't brawl in a ship that isn't very responsive and expect to not get your ass shot off. You could probably do somehting very much like this in almost any dogfighter though. It will be interesting to see what an F8 can do!