EA says Lootboxes are not gambling, they are Kinder Eggs

NaffNaffBobFace

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From the following news article:


A vice president of EA games has defended the company's use of loot boxes, saying they're just the same as Kinder Eggs.
Bad example - Kinder Eggs are illegal in some parts of the world, like in the USA.

Also, a Kinder Eggs content is always at the value paid for it. There is no gamble with Kinder Eggs, you won't get a diamond ring in every 15,000th egg, they are all full of stuff that is worth what you paid. Except for when they had jigsaw puzzles in them, that was crap.
 
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Vavrik

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Except for when they had jigsaw puzzles in them, that was crap.
Maybe... but that crap had the same value as the other crap in Kinder eggs... I don't mean the prize, I mean the chocolate. You'll know more about what i mean when master or miss BobFace turns about 2 or 3, and wants to eat a Kinder egg. The thought "I would rather you didn't" will go through your mind. Your and the Mrs. parents might have other plans though. That is the role of grand mothers and grand fathers in a child's life. Spoil them rotten, then send them home preferably before they get sick.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Maybe... but that crap had the same value as the other crap in Kinder eggs... I don't mean the prize, I mean the chocolate. You'll know more about what i mean when master or miss BobFace turns about 2 or 3, and wants to eat a Kinder egg. The thought "I would rather you didn't" will go through your mind. You and the Mrs. parents might have other plans though. That is the role of grand mothers and grand fathers in a child's life. Spoil them rotten, then send them home preferably before they get sick.
Mmmmm, delicious! I get what you mean though. Hey, by the sound of it Kinder Egg may have grounds to complain about their innocent product being associated with the vile concept of Lootboxes?
 
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Vavrik

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Yes, I think it's fair to say that the concept of a lootbox is not the same concept as a Kinder Egg prize, but I think that game publishers like EA don't recognize the difference on a fundamental level.

The problem with reactions like this is that it can lead to more regulation of the gaming industry, and I have yet to see where increased legislation worked in the favor of the consumer's pocket book, because if there is one thing these gaming companies have excelled it's in separating users from their money. That, even over providing good games, is the paramount driver. They call it building "shareholder value". I'll predict more pay-to-win, but it's going to come in the form of pay to play because of legislation that they're letting happen. It's just easier to do.
 

Lorddarthvik

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From the following news article:




Bad example - Kinder Eggs are illegal in some parts of the world, like in the USA.

Also, a Kinder Eggs content is always at the value paid for it. There is no gamble with Kinder Eggs, you won't get a diamond ring in every 15,000th egg, they are all full of stuff that is worth what you paid. Except for when they had jigsaw puzzles in them, that was crap.
Oh, I was waiting for this topic to pop up! Lemme play Devils advocate lol


Kinder Eggs = Loot Boxes
This is True!
Let's look at some things that are common in both of em:

They always at least give you a minimum value of X : True!
( Kinder Eggs : the chocolate, in lootboxes even if you find something you already have or don't need, in all the games I know of it can be turned into some sort of currency, and you can look up what the minimum value of that is)

You always get something from them: true!
( there is no empty Kinder egg or lootbox. While the perceived value of a lootbox may be zero to you, the fact is that you do get an item every time)
You do not know exactly what you get out of them: true!

They do contain duplicates: true!

There is rarity thus increased perceived value in some: true! (Think like the intended audience of Kinder Eggs, 6-12 year olds. Some items are more worthy to you as maybe your classmates don't have it, or you really wanted the red little thing they have and so on. Also all Kinder egg items are limited run, thus rarity)

You feel like you do Need to buy them : True! (Again, think like the kid Kinder Eggs are meant for: his classmates have bought 5 each and got little round thingies they play some gams with between classes. You cannot join them without having the thingies, so you Must buy Kinder Eggs or you feel left out)

They are fun! : umm, for some, yes

They are both immoral: True!
Both are immoral! Both are gambling, and unhealthy physically and mentally! (If you are so into games that you pay for lootboxes, I would assume you probably sit a lot in front of a console or pc. The other one is basically slightly colored sugar and grease. Both are gambling)


Now, to be clear, I despisel lootboxe, mostly because they contain content I already paid for and didn't actually get. They ruin games. (Looking at games like battlefront2 and that second LoTR game)
But I love Kinder Eggs! Obviously they are not the same as they are of a much different value, and their intended market and marketing practices are vastly different.

But what if you could get a Kinder Egg in your own kitchen, any time of day, from a small slot in the wall by the push of a button?? It would directly bill your credit card without any interaction needed apart from the first time you register your card.
So you could buy all the Kinder Eggs you could afford in the convenience of your own home, instantly.
How different would they be then?
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Oh, I was waiting for this topic to pop up! Lemme play Devils advocate lol


Kinder Eggs = Loot Boxes
This is True!
Let's look at some things that are common in both of em:

They always at least give you a minimum value of X : True!
( Kinder Eggs : the chocolate, in lootboxes even if you find something you already have or don't need, in all the games I know of it can be turned into some sort of currency, and you can look up what the minimum value of that is)

You always get something from them: true!
( there is no empty Kinder egg or lootbox. While the perceived value of a lootbox may be zero to you, the fact is that you do get an item every time)
You do not know exactly what you get out of them: true!

They do contain duplicates: true!

There is rarity thus increased perceived value in some: true! (Think like the intended audience of Kinder Eggs, 6-12 year olds. Some items are more worthy to you as maybe your classmates don't have it, or you really wanted the red little thing they have and so on. Also all Kinder egg items are limited run, thus rarity)

You feel like you do Need to buy them : True! (Again, think like the kid Kinder Eggs are meant for: his classmates have bought 5 each and got little round thingies they play some gams with between classes. You cannot join them without having the thingies, so you Must buy Kinder Eggs or you feel left out)

They are fun! : umm, for some, yes

They are both immoral: True!
Both are immoral! Both are gambling, and unhealthy physically and mentally! (If you are so into games that you pay for lootboxes, I would assume you probably sit a lot in front of a console or pc. The other one is basically slightly colored sugar and grease. Both are gambling)


Now, to be clear, I despisel lootboxe, mostly because they contain content I already paid for and didn't actually get. They ruin games. (Looking at games like battlefront2 and that second LoTR game)
But I love Kinder Eggs! Obviously they are not the same as they are of a much different value, and their intended market and marketing practices are vastly different.

But what if you could get a Kinder Egg in your own kitchen, any time of day, from a small slot in the wall by the push of a button?? It would directly bill your credit card without any interaction needed apart from the first time you register your card.
So you could buy all the Kinder Eggs you could afford in the convenience of your own home, instantly.
How different would they be then?
I see your deviled advocacy and raise you this:

You don't need to spend a minimum of $60 to get in the shop to then buy a kinder egg, only to open the Kinder Egg up and find it's full of things you would have been able to get for free by simply progressing through your day as you were planning to anyway.

Unless the thing in the lootbox is not earnable in game, then there being a small % chance of getting said thing is gambling.
 

Lorddarthvik

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I see your deviled advocacy and raise you this:

You don't need to spend a minimum of $60 to get in the shop to then buy a kinder egg, only to open the Kinder Egg up and find it's full of things you would have been able to get for free by simply progressing through your day as you were planning to anyway.
Yep, exactly! One of the many reasons I hate lootboxes!

I'm not actually trying to defend EA here lol, who do you think I am, a shareholder?
Keep this up and I might feel offended by that assumption! 😂😂😂
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Yep, exactly! One of the many reasons I hate lootboxes!

I'm not actually trying to defend EA here lol, who do you think I am, a shareholder?
Keep this up and I might feel offended by that assumption! 😂😂😂
To be honest with you, I only read half of your post, I had to go back and finish it :drunk:
 

DirectorGunner

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Which one was the creme filled chocolate eggs? Those were good.
My wife buys different Kinder sweets from local Asian markets, there's super yummy!

Yea, loot boxes you pay cash for are by definition (I think) gambling.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble
as far as "illegal" no idea but
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5362
to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful....
and here's the pending bills which could make it into law, from the Senator who introduced an anti-loot box bill
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse#sponsor=412840&current_status[]=1
S. 1629: A bill to regulate certain pay-to-win microtransactions and sales of loot boxes in interactive digital entertainment products, and for other purposes.

Every American gamer should review S 1629 and if good, actively support/call their senators and ask their support.
AntiLootBoxBill_SB1629.jpg

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s1629/text/is
 
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Hybus

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I hate those Creme eggs, feel like my teeth are rotting out.

Kinder eggs/toy blind boxes don't have the slot machine element piled on to them, the colours, the flashing lights, the music all designed to heighten the experience of cracking open a box and makes you eager for another spin.
 

Bruttle

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It doesn't matter what spin is placed on lootboxes. It doesn't matter what justification people place on them. The bottom line is they aren't healthy. With the exception of caffeine, all potentially addictive substances and activities are regulated, restricted, or completely illegal. They are like that for a reason. Some people are more susceptible. Some, like minors, are particularly vulnerable. That's why they are prevented access.

To allow these mechanics in video games is just plain predatory. No matter what you say, designing mechanics where you pay to roll the dice with a chance of a high payout, is gambling. Allowing minors to engage in this type of activity is unethical at the very least. I'm sure we've all heard horror stories about kids spending 3, 4, even 5 digit figures on these mechanics before their parents find out.

This also applies to pay to win mechanics. Allowing for the possibility of spending thousands of dollars to potentially gain advantage in a competitive game falls in the same predatory category. It coerces people into paying far more than any game could possibly be worth. The profit numbers don't lie. The income from these mechanics vastly outpace game quality. It used to be that games needed to be amazing to pull these profit numbers. But now, even mediocre games can be wildly profitable by employing these measures.

It is for that very reason that developers will never willingly step away from P2W or lootbox mechanics. There's too much money at stake. They will kick, scream, and fight for every last minute of these mechanics they can get. Meanwhile, those susceptible to these tricks will continue to fall victim. Usually I'm fully against laws and measures to protect stupid people from themselves. I'd be willing to make an exception in this case.

Don't get me wrong. It's not out of altruism. I'm just getting shit tired of crappy games finding success with these tactics. It just breeds more crap games. I firmly believe that this is a huge part of why "mile wide and one inch thick" games are the norm now. Games don't need to be good. They just need to hype the shit out of a crap game and let lootboxes/P2W pull in the money. I fully believe this trend will continue to be the norm until these mechanics are banned. Only then will shit games be forced to rely on quality to make their profit.
 

Radegast74

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To allow these mechanics in video games is just plain predatory. No matter what you say, designing mechanics where you pay to roll the dice with a chance of a high payout, is gambling. Allowing minors to engage in this type of activity is unethical at the very least. I'm sure we've all heard horror stories about kids spending 3, 4, even 5 digit figures on these mechanics before their parents find out.
I agree 100% with everything you said. I'm highlighting this one paragraph because I want to draw attention to this, and the fact that everybody is assuming implicitly that these loot-boxes are going to be "fixed-odds."

Nothing could be further from the truth! Everyday, these companies are going to be tweaking their algorithms, to find out exactly what it takes to extract the maximum amount of cash from players. Since the "loot" is not really of value outside of the game, the game company isn't risking anything. All they want to do is continually test, what is going to make the most people spend the most amount of money in game. Would you gamble at a casino where they were constantly playing with the odds? Would you let the casino take cards out of a deck, put more low value cards in a deck, or weight dice, etc.? Hell, no! And at least casino's have oversight, from the state regulatory agency. Game companies are going to have no such oversight.

There is some really interesting psychology behind gambling. A small number of people have real problems with it...well, get ready, when you bring these game companies into your house on your computer, and let them start monkeying around with how to get the most money out of you, well then, it is going to get real interesting.
 

Bruttle

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I agree 100% with everything you said. I'm highlighting this one paragraph because I want to draw attention to this, and the fact that everybody is assuming implicitly that these loot-boxes are going to be "fixed-odds."

Nothing could be further from the truth! Everyday, these companies are going to be tweaking their algorithms, to find out exactly what it takes to extract the maximum amount of cash from players. Since the "loot" is not really of value outside of the game, the game company isn't risking anything. All they want to do is continually test, what is going to make the most people spend the most amount of money in game. Would you gamble at a casino where they were constantly playing with the odds? Would you let the casino take cards out of a deck, put more low value cards in a deck, or weight dice, etc.? Hell, no! And at least casino's have oversight, from the state regulatory agency. Game companies are going to have no such oversight.

There is some really interesting psychology behind gambling. A small number of people have real problems with it...well, get ready, when you bring these game companies into your house on your computer, and let them start monkeying around with how to get the most money out of you, well then, it is going to get real interesting.
This is absolutely true. Just look at gambling sites. They use RNG algorithms to simulate card odds. This has been the subject of a huge amount of suspicion and accusation. The accusations include increasing odds for "all in" hands, giving higher odds to new players, giving better odds to bad players, and offering statistical diminishing returns for long term play. These are all based on long standing psychological strategies established by casinos.

The big difference between casinos and RNG algorithms is the fact that the algorithms can be "tweaked". So they can engineer the perfect scenario. When a new player starts playing texas hold'em, they can tweak the algorithm to ensure that new players get a really good winning hand. The gambler's high takes over from there. They are far more likely to chase that high long into the loser bracket.

I have been playing poker in real life for decades. I dipped my toe into online poker and suddenly I was seeing 4 of a kinds and straight flushes like it was raining cards. I saw more super low probability hands in a week than I had in the previous decade of home games. I know that represents a VERY small statistical group, but the fact is that I saw hands that showed up once per month in the real world every couple minutes online.

Now these odds and algorithms are regulated and enforced on gambling sites. Several have been seized and put out of commission for violating gambling laws. As you pointed out, game companies have no such oversight. So right now they have a completely open avenue to do whatever they feel like. That's a very scary proposition.
 
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