Things that are different in Canada

[Montoya]

I still wonder how any medical system in any country stays even mediocrity solvency, or if its all just a giant bubble waiting to collapse.

Everybody pays one way or another.

In America, you make $5000/month, you pay probably around 22% tax.

In Canada you make $5000/month, you probably pay closer to 30% tax*

*Rough estimate, Canadian experts feel free to confirm

Simple math time, in the US $60k for the year, minus 22% is $46,800 in the bank

In Canada, $60,000 - 33% = $42,000 in the bank end of the year.

In this example it looks like the American is $4800 richer at the end of the year!

BUT... the American needs to pay for health insurance. In this tax bracket and this example, if you are paying less than $400/month for your healthcare, then you are coming out better off than Canadians.

BUT.. ALSO... If you are American and you fall while rollerblading and hit your head, and need an ambulance ($3000), and that ambulance takes your unconsciousness ass to an out-of-network hospital, and an out-of-network radiologist looked at your x-ray, and an out-of-network nurse gave you an Advil.. that bill is already $15,000 that you need to pay out of pocket.

In Canada, if you fall... every single thing from the ambulance to the x-ray to the advil is covered from the moment your head hit the pavement, to the moment you get wheeled out the hospital.

IMO, the bottom line is Americans come out ahead as long as they work for a good company that has good insurance plans, stay healthy and remain accident free.

 

[Blind Owl]

Everybody pays one way or another.

In America, you make $5000/month, you pay probably around 22% tax.

In Canada you make $5000/month, you probably pay closer to 30% tax*

*Rough estimate, Canadian experts feel free to confirm

Simple math time, in the US $60k for the year, minus 22% is $46,800 in the bank

In Canada, $60,000 - 33% = $42,000 in the bank end of the year.

In this example it looks like the American is $4800 richer at the end of the year!

BUT... the American needs to pay for health insurance. In this tax bracket and this example, if you are paying less than $400/month for your healthcare, then you are coming out better off than Canadians.

BUT.. ALSO... If you are American and you fall while rollerblading and hit your head, and need an ambulance ($3000), and that ambulance takes your unconsciousness ass to an out-of-network hospital, and an out-of-network radiologist looked at your x-ray, and an out-of-network nurse gave you an Advil.. that bill is already $15,000 that you need to pay out of pocket.

In Canada, if you fall... every single thing from the ambulance to the x-ray to the advil is covered from the moment your head hit the pavement, to the moment you get wheeled out the hospital.

IMO, the bottom line is Americans come out ahead as long as they work for a good company that has good insurance plans, stay healthy and remain accident free.

100% agree.
Our son had emergency open heart surgery at 3 days old. Not once, from the moment he was born, through the terror of him having to be resuscitated when I cut the cord, through the hours of diagnosis as doctors fought to save him, to the surgery, to the weeks of recovery, nor through the developmental reviews and cardiologist appointments year to year, not once, through all that, were we asked to present insurance, or pay for a thing. That is our system.

Just a fathers perspective.

Now, as @August has said, let's get back to our congratulating @Montoya on his stellar choice in country if residence. Ha.

 

[Blind Owl]

Canadianisms

 

[Montoya]

Ha!

Zee vs Zed!

The kids in my daughters class were asking her why she says zee! :D

 

[LoicFarris]

Ha!

Zee vs Zed!

The kids in my daughters class were asking her why she says zee! :D

I thought Zed was the name of the gay biker cop in Pulp Fiction?

 

[Blind Owl]

Ha!

Zee vs Zed!

The kids in my daughters class were asking her why she says zee! :D

Hahah, one of the many Canadianisms.

Oh yeah...also legal in Canada:

 

[Blind Owl]

I thought Zed was the name of the gay biker cop in Pulp Fiction?

Zeds dead baby, Zeds dead.

 

[ColdDog]

Who derailed this thread... they should be awarded the Testie Medal of Turd.

Canadian government taxes do not kill you... providential taxes do.
The general provincial sales tax, or PST, in British Columbia, is 7 percent, with some items taxed at a higher PST rate. This adds up to a total of at least 12 percent sales tax on many items unless they are exempt from sales tax or exempt from one but not both sales taxes

The North Carolina (NC) state sales tax rate is currently 4.75%. Depending on local municipalities, the total tax rate can be as high as 7.5%. County and local taxes in most areas bring the sales tax rate to 6.75%–7% in most counties but some can be as high as 7.5%.

Colorado - My to be liberal state.

• Base state sales tax rate 2.9%
• Local rate range* 0%-8.3%
• Total rate range* 2.9%-11.2%

Reality - you are probably paying 15-20% more taxes in Canada. Now go buy the new iPhone and let me know.

 

[Blind Owl]

Who derailed this thread... they should be awarded the Testie Medal of Turd.

Canadian government taxes do not kill you... providential taxes do.
The general provincial sales tax, or PST, in British Columbia, is 7 percent, with some items taxed at a higher PST rate. This adds up to a total of at least 12 percent sales tax on many items unless they are exempt from sales tax or exempt from one but not both sales taxes

Taxes do suck. But they also pay for shit. Like roads and healthcare. Haha

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Who derailed this thread... they should be awarded the Testie Medal of Turd.

Canadian government taxes do not kill you... providential taxes do.
The general provincial sales tax, or PST, in British Columbia, is 7 percent, with some items taxed at a higher PST rate. This adds up to a total of at least 12 percent sales tax on many items unless they are exempt from sales tax or exempt from one but not both sales taxes

UK sales tax is 20%

You can see why they add it to the ticket price, imagine if some poor sod forgot to add it on.

 

[Bambooza]

This is hard to explain to an American, because they lack relevant experience. Most social healthcare systems in G20 countries, are not short of cash. In the Canadian system, it is funded mainly through the disbursement of corporate income tax, which just replaces the benefit that they'd provide you anyway. This pays for the bulk of the healthcare system. Some of the price is funded by individuals too, but it is not the lion's share, and depends which province you live in.

One way to think about it is, there is only 1 insurance company in Canada, and it has 10 plans depending where you live. They can negotiate pricing as a block. The problem with the current American system is mostly that it doesn't go nearly far enough, and it requires special training even to be able to make reasonable choices on providers and plans. Obama care, is good for the insurance industry, not the consumer. That's what I see.

In Canada, and you need medical care? Go to the doctor! Doctor not open, or you have an emergency? Go to the nearest hospital. No copay.

I can see what I said needed to be rephrased as it seems to have elicited an answer that was not what I was going for. While it is easy to say insurance or the government will pay for all the medical care you need the question is where does the money come from to pay for everyone's medical care? At what point does the cost of medical care exceed the ability of society to pay for. Be it either privately funded through individuals paying more into a common pool than collecting over their lifetime or society as a whole paying into a common pool than collecting over their lifetime. And while I do understand it an emotionally charged hot topic when you look at the financial data available across any of the known medical payment solutions they all point toward the same answer. It really doesn't seem to be sustainable in the long run for anyone. It only works when there are more contributing to the system then withdrawing from it be it from a combination of population growth as well as a quick accidental death at middle age.

So look at your own medical history so far and ask yourself, have you contributed more in medical payments be it through taxes either personally given or through work contributed through a corporation tax (corporate taxes, in the end, are still taxes on the individual work's contribution, just not paid directly by the individual). then medical services you have collected? Then look at those around you your friends and family members, as a group have you paid more then you've collected?

I honestly do not have any answers to these questions. I just know that when I started digging into the world macroeconomics there were a lot of questions that no one was answering or the answers given did not have a very positive outlook.

So no I was not asking about how the American medical system compared against the Canadian or Australian or even Russian. I feel that while we like to say one way is better then the other the question I am asking is how can we continue to pay for the medical system we currently demand. Or if the medical system we currently demand is not sustainable within the current economic trajectories.

 

[ColdDog]

Like roads and healthcare. Haha

So do mine... we don't have people running around here spreading the black plague either. Our taxes also pay for people who can't afford healthcare (called Medicare or I show up at the hospital with no intention of paying the medical bill). That is another misconception on the US side.

 

[Bambooza]

Everybody pays one way or another.

In America, you make $5000/month, you pay probably around 22% tax.

In Canada you make $5000/month, you probably pay closer to 30% tax*

*Rough estimate, Canadian experts feel free to confirm

Simple math time, in the US $60k for the year, minus 22% is $46,800 in the bank

In Canada, $60,000 - 33% = $42,000 in the bank end of the year.

In this example it looks like the American is $4800 richer at the end of the year!

BUT... the American needs to pay for health insurance. In this tax bracket and this example, if you are paying less than $400/month for your healthcare, then you are coming out better off than Canadians.

BUT.. ALSO... If you are American and you fall while rollerblading and hit your head, and need an ambulance ($3000), and that ambulance takes your unconsciousness ass to an out-of-network hospital, and an out-of-network radiologist looked at your x-ray, and an out-of-network nurse gave you an Advil.. that bill is already $15,000 that you need to pay out of pocket.

In Canada, if you fall... every single thing from the ambulance to the x-ray to the advil is covered from the moment your head hit the pavement, to the moment you get wheeled out the hospital.

IMO, the bottom line is Americans come out ahead as long as they work for a good company that has good insurance plans, stay healthy and remain accident free.

While this is correct on how its currently working with in the individual level. The question is both the American and Canadian do not pay into the system over their career the amount they take out over their lifetime. At what point does it become no longer economically feasible to support the current medical expectations?

 

[Sraika]

Spoiler: I started writing this and realised it’s just further derailing the thread.

blah blah blah

There is also ... holy fuck this will be a long post.

sounds about right :p

While this is correct on how its currently working with in the individual level. The question is both the American and Canadian do not pay into the system over their career the amount they take out over their lifetime. At what point does it become no longer economically feasible to support the current medical expectations?

good question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
there is no good answer to that

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

So do mine... we don't have people running around here spreading the black plague either. Our taxes also pay for people who can't afford healthcare (called Medicare or I show up at the hospital with no intention of paying the medical bill). That is another misconception on the US side.

I have a conception that may be a misconception I hope you can clear up for me - If you have some kind of illness and have to claim, does your health insurance go up like with motor insurace or do you just keep paying the same monthly bill like with National Insurance? Can you be priced out of insurance if you deemed to be at risk unlike National Insurance which you just keep paying day-in-day-out no matter what your health history is like?

 

[ColdDog]

The root of the issue is...
In BC you pay 7% as opposed to 2% in NC. That does not not sound like much but my family goes to the store every week... and we pay around $150 - that is $3 in tax at 2% 10.5 at 7% for BC - that is huge. That adds up, when you take that comparison time 48 Months. That is not to add in clothing or dining. I pay $340 (and I have a "Cadillac" plan) a paycheck for my medical insurance -- $680 a month time 12 -- which is $8160 a year for me and my son... we visit the doctor twice a year.

As you can see, we all pay in oneway or another... the difference is choice... I choose the "Cadillac" plan". Maybe choice ultimately adds more money for those who can't afford it.

If you have some kind of illness and have to claim, does your health insurance go up like with motor insurance or do you just keep paying the same monthly bill like with National Insurance?

I think you are talking about pre-existing conditions. American health system, bureaucrats do not decide who lives and dies like other countries.
That is why we have some of the best cancer institutes here in America. These cancer institutes do not exist because they have no customers... someone is paying for their research and medical assistance - that is me, the insurance companies and government.

"Being sick will not keep you from getting health coverage. An insurance company can’t turn you down or charge you more because of your condition."

What about pre-existing conditions?

As a result of the federal health reform law, new protections for children and adults with pre-existing conditions are available. Insurers are no longer permitted to deny coverage to children due t…

www.cohealthinfo.com

 

[Montoya]

The question is both the American and Canadian do not pay into the system over their career the amount they take out over their lifetime. At what point does it become no longer economically feasible to support the current medical expectations?

A universal healthcare system, or even a private system would fail if there are not enough young healthy people putting money in to support the aging older demographic.

Japan is one example of this happening. They have low birth rates and tight immigration policies resulting in population decline.

 

[Bambooza]

A universal healthcare system, or even a private system would fail if there are not enough young healthy people putting money in to support the aging older demographic.

Japan is one example of this happening. They have low birth rates and tight immigration policies resulting in population decline.

Indeed, then the question is the expectation of medical health care by those requesting on the system reasonable or supportable by those contributing or all of the current systems going the same way as Japan.

 

[Vavrik]

the question I am asking is how can we continue to pay for the medical system we currently demand. Or if the medical system we currently demand is not sustainable within the current economic trajectories.

We can't continue to sustain the status quo, and that includes in social healthcare systems as well as private. Social healthcare systems are not immune to the fallout. All they can do is delay the problem a few years at most, if that. And as it collapses, we'll see it impact people who are on the income edge first. This is something that is far bigger than just healthcare though, it impacts our whole economic system, globally. It might impact food production first. Almost anything else could be resolved peacefully, but food... that's a primary need. "Screw healthcare, I'm fuggin hungry" will quickly devolve the rest of society.

 

[Montoya]

I think you are talking about pre-existing conditions. American health system, bureaucrats do not decide who lives and dies like other countries.

Correct.

In America, mega-yacht owning corporate executives get to decide who lives and dies! :D

Lets break this down.

First of all, there is no government bureaucrat sitting in cubical deciding who gets to live or die in socialized medicine. Its a scaremongering tactic that has worked extremely well in the past, but like most things, its an attempt to provide a simple scary image to a more complicated problem.

What ColdDog is talking about is "rationing". There are limited resources (doctors), so who gets to use them?

In the US we like to point out how the horrible socialized medicine is going to lead to massive lines and rationing of services. In my experience living in Canada in the past, this is not true. I have never, nor has anybody I know ever experienced this. Im not saying it never happens, but I am saying that nobody I know has ever had any problems.

In America you have, and still have, in every insurance company, a department that deals with whats called rescission.

Health insurers are for-profit entities. They need to make money, they are a business. You do not make money if you are paying out more than you take in. As such, they spend a lot of time and salaried workers to find ways to NOT pay out. Rescission departments are a real thing, they make sure that the company maximizes its profits.

Before Obamacare kicked in, insurance companies would regularly deny insurance to people they deemed to be unprofitable. If you had cancer 10yrs ago and wanted to get insurance from a new company, they could deny you (or massively overcharge you) because they are concerned your cancer would come back and you would not be a profitable client to them.

Most people who could not afford insurance would simply go without. There is no government rationing, its financial rationing. Its so common that one of my favorite TV shows of all time deals with this exact topic, Breaking Bad.

Obamacare forced all these companies accept anybody, regardless of previous health issues. So its not as pervasive as it used to be, but it still occurs in other ways.

For example, my Mom needed a specific blood test, she went to the doctor, the doctor says because this is not part of the standard physical, it would cost around $350 in lab fees and her insurance would not cover it. Thankfully my Mom could afford $350, so she did it.

If you happened to be down on your luck and don't have $350, what do you do? There is no bureaucrat that rationed your care, it was your profit driven health insurance company that decided and rationed it for you. Financial rationing has done the job that the boogie man of socialized medicine is always been threatening you with.

40,000* people die in the US every year because of lack of medical care. Not because the health care is bad, but because they can't afford a blood test or some screening, and miss an important opportunity to deal with a medical issue before it got bad!

These companies can choose to deny you services (they will not pay for them) if they do not fall within your plan. Its pervasive that not only do you pay a monthly premium, but you pay AGAIN when they decide they dont want to cover some service or medication. In America, as long as you have money, you can take care of all your health needs!

Now let me be balanced here, in the Canadian system its possible that you need to book a specialist and have to wait 6 weeks to get an appointment. Those 6 weeks could be critical if the doctor misdiagnosed it as not being urgent.

In the US, my Dad needed an MRI last month in NC. 36hrs from the time his doctor suggested it, he was at Duke Medical in the latest state of the art high res MRI that the country has to offer.

Pros and cons to both systems, but one thing to consider is this dick measuring of healthcare debates, is that there is only one country in the world where medical bankruptcy leads all other forms of personal bankruptcies.

In the US we may have the best healthcare in the world, but chances are if you or one of your loved ones ever gets seriously sick, somebody is going bankrupt.




* American Journal of Public Health - 2009