So... staggered development?

[FZD]

Okey, so I was looking at the roadmap today. Staggered development would mean that 3.9 is halfway done, they've worked on it for 3 months, and they got 3 months to go.

However, what I find kinda odd, is that there seems to be little to no progress on it. What's more, the cards that have progress on them are mostly cards moved from 3.8:
Eddie Parr - Moved from 3.8
Microtech Collection - Moved from 3.8
Klesher Automated Prison - Brand spanking new and nearly done
New Babbage Landing Zone - Interiors - Moved from 3.8
Calliope - Moved from 3.8
Clio - Moved from 3.8
Euterpe - Moved from 3.8
FPS: Cover Usage v1 - Moved from 3.8
PvP Bounties - New?
Death Animation Improvements - Moved from 3.8
Cutlass Blue - No progress - Moved from 3.8
Atzkav Electron Sniper Rifle - No progress - Moved from 3.8

So apart from Klesher Automated Prison and PvP Bounties, every card that has any progress in 3.9 has been moved from 3.8.
And obviously Klesher Automated Prison probably takes a lot of work, but half the team for 3 months?

I don't know, to me it just seems like there will be a bunch of cards in 3.9 moving to 4.0 at this rate. Can't say I'd be surprised, and I know it's still early stages of staggered development but I think I do at some point get to tell you "I told you so", though honestly I was kinda wishing that staggered development would fix things. Sure, I am quite pessimistic about it, but that doesn't mean I wasn't hoping for staggered development to help.

 

[LoicFarris]

I definitely see what you're saying, my issue is with the "surprise" ships. There's a lot of us who have pledged for ships that have been stuck in "concept" stages for a long time... cough, cough Redeemer... who would love to see those implemented. I mean the Ares is cool, the Mole is neat, but I would have preferred to have my Mercury Star Runner, Carrack, Polaris, A2 Hercules etc. available now vs. these surprise ships that keep coming out.

 

[Bambooza]

Okey, so I was looking at the roadmap today. Staggered development would mean that 3.9 is halfway done, they've worked on it for 3 months, and they got 3 months to go.

However, what I find kinda odd, is that there seems to be little to no progress on it. What's more, the cards that have progress on them are mostly cards moved from 3.8:
Eddie Parr - Moved from 3.8
Microtech Collection - Moved from 3.8
Klesher Automated Prison - Brand spanking new and nearly done
New Babbage Landing Zone - Interiors - Moved from 3.8
Calliope - Moved from 3.8
Clio - Moved from 3.8
Euterpe - Moved from 3.8
FPS: Cover Usage v1 - Moved from 3.8
PvP Bounties - New?
Death Animation Improvements - Moved from 3.8
Cutlass Blue - No progress - Moved from 3.8
Atzkav Electron Sniper Rifle - No progress - Moved from 3.8

So apart from Klesher Automated Prison and PvP Bounties, every card that has any progress in 3.9 has been moved from 3.8.
And obviously Klesher Automated Prison probably takes a lot of work, but half the team for 3 months?

I don't know, to me it just seems like there will be a bunch of cards in 3.9 moving to 4.0 at this rate. Can't say I'd be surprised, and I know it's still early stages of staggered development but I think I do at some point get to tell you "I told you so", though honestly I was kinda wishing that staggered development would fix things. Sure, I am quite pessimistic about it, but that doesn't mean I wasn't hoping for staggered development to help.

It is odd. As staggered development means these should be slipping to 4.0 not 3.9.

But then we have things like PlanetTech V4 being added to 3.8 which is huge. So I am not sure the roadmap is even worth watching as it doesn't seem to really be tied to anything.

 

[FZD]

It is odd. As staggered development means these should be slipping to 4.0 not 3.9.

Yeah, I was contemplating on mentioning that. Could be they're also moving the people working on these features to the team working on 3.9, which would probably be the logical choice. Then they'll move few other people to work on 4.0 and join the team working on 3.8 when they start working on 4.0.
Idk, seems kinda chaotic.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Okey, so I was looking at the roadmap today. Staggered development would mean that 3.9 is halfway done, they've worked on it for 3 months, and they got 3 months to go.

However, what I find kinda odd, is that there seems to be little to no progress on it. What's more, the cards that have progress on them are mostly cards moved from 3.8:
Eddie Parr - Moved from 3.8
Microtech Collection - Moved from 3.8
Klesher Automated Prison - Brand spanking new and nearly done
New Babbage Landing Zone - Interiors - Moved from 3.8
Calliope - Moved from 3.8
Clio - Moved from 3.8
Euterpe - Moved from 3.8
FPS: Cover Usage v1 - Moved from 3.8
PvP Bounties - New?
Death Animation Improvements - Moved from 3.8
Cutlass Blue - No progress - Moved from 3.8
Atzkav Electron Sniper Rifle - No progress - Moved from 3.8

So apart from Klesher Automated Prison and PvP Bounties, every card that has any progress in 3.9 has been moved from 3.8.
And obviously Klesher Automated Prison probably takes a lot of work, but half the team for 3 months?

I don't know, to me it just seems like there will be a bunch of cards in 3.9 moving to 4.0 at this rate. Can't say I'd be surprised, and I know it's still early stages of staggered development but I think I do at some point get to tell you "I told you so", though honestly I was kinda wishing that staggered development would fix things. Sure, I am quite pessimistic about it, but that doesn't mean I wasn't hoping for staggered development to help.

Don't forget that point of staggered dev has never been to get more things done in the same amount of time, as you pointed that out before, it wouldn't work like that! It has always been to get things done more better!
This is why moving ppl around makes no sense, the whole point would be to allow the ppl working on something to not break stride, stay in the groove longer, and deliver a better result! And yeah, these should be in 4.0 not 3.9!

Now what I find strange, is that most of the things you listed are "just" assets. It's mostly 3D assets that already worked (planets, guns, ships, animations), it requires no new technology to make em work fine. Except, if SSOCS and the new planet tech broke these assets and they need to update them accordingly.
So what are we getting in 3.8 now that most of microtech has been moved? Seems like SSOCS, Microtech outside (probably with not much on it or do?) and weather are the main things left, the rest is just the same filler as before. Bit disappointed.

Also also, it may be that they are hunkering down for Squadron42, and they are moving more ppl to get that done! I wouldn't mind that, but they should tell us if that's the case.

 

[FZD]

Don't forget that point of staggered dev has never been to get more things done in the same amount of time, as you pointed that out before, it wouldn't work like that! It has always been to get things done more better!

Well, yeah. I think few made the point that we'd get the things promised more reliably, tho as I said at the time, for that to work they'd need to adjust their promises to their actual velocity.

This is why moving ppl around makes no sense, the whole point would be to allow the ppl working on something to not break stride, stay in the groove longer, and deliver a better result! And yeah, these should be in 4.0 not 3.9!

They wouldn't really be 'moved around', they'd still be working on the same feature they've been working for the past 6 months, but instead of working on it for 12 months straight, they'll be working on it for 9.
Though that then causes some other issues, like if you try to 'naturally' move people around the teams, one team might just balloon out of proportion due to summer and christmas holidays causing delays at fixed times during the year.
Though I do see why moving them to 4.0 would make perhaps more sense. I'm just saying that moving them to 3.9 isn't a total betrayal of this staggered development scheme.

Also also, it may be that they are hunkering down for Squadron42, and they are moving more ppl to get that done! I wouldn't mind that, but they should tell us if that's the case.

Well, I'm fairly sure at least most of the ship team is there, what with a whole slew of ships being worked on SQ42 side of things. (Ofc it'll benefit SC also)
And I'm quite happy to hear they're trying to get SQ42 out next year. That'll be a blast and a half!

 

[Vavrik]

Well, I'm fairly sure at least most of the ship team is there, what with a whole slew of ships being worked on SQ42 side of things. (Ofc it'll benefit SC also)
And I'm quite happy to hear they're trying to get SQ42 out next year. That'll be a blast and a half!

I'm with you here, but I have a concern that is in part expressed by the point @LoicFarris made. I'd like to get a doable timeline for when the ships that aren't in the roadmap are going to be released. I would feel better about it if it didn't look like a mess.

 

[FZD]

I'm with you here, but I have a concern that is in part expressed by the point @LoicFarris made. I'd like to get a doable timeline for when the ships that aren't in the roadmap are going to be released. I would feel better about it if it didn't look like a mess.

Yes, certainly. I'd like that very much myself. At least we know that Idris, Javelin, Hull-C are being worked on (though at least Hull-C is currently waiting for some new tech from another team)

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I didn't pick up that staggered development meant that they'd be working on two different releases at once (doesn't make sense that they'd work on 3.9 before 3.8 was done - what if something they put in 3.8 breaks all the 3.9 stuff that got built by the time 3.8 launches?)

I thought Staggered Development meant they had two seperate work streams/teams which executed their tasks on a a staggered basis, so if the teams had two week sprints they'd be one week offset, so stream/team 1 would sprint on weeks 1,2 and then 3,4 in a month, and stream/team 2 would sprint on weeks 2,3 and then weeks 4 of that month and 1 of the next month staggering them.

The practical upshot of that would, in an ideal world, be that each team once they hit the end of their work for a particular sprint can then aid the other stream/team in whatever they were doing.

So say stream/team 1 is given a bunch of stuff to do and by day 10 of the 14 days in their sprint they have finished it all. They then have 4 days spare to chip in and assist stream/team 2 in whatever they are doing, and vice versa. I am not sure if staggered dev meant they would be working on separate patches...?

 

[FZD]

I didn't pick up that staggered development meant that they'd be working on two different releases at once (doesn't make sense that they'd work on 3.9 before 3.8 was done - what if something they put in 3.8 breaks all the 3.9 stuff that got built by the time 3.8 launches?)

I thought Staggered Development meant they had two seperate work streams/teams which executed their tasks on a a staggered basis, so if the teams had two week sprints they'd be one week offset, so stream/team 1 would sprint on weeks 1,2 and then 3,4 in a month, and stream/team 2 would sprint on weeks 2,3 and then weeks 4 of that month and 1 of the next month staggering them.

The practical upshot of that would, in an ideal world, be that each team once they hit the end of their work for a particular sprint can then aid the other stream/team in whatever they were doing.

So say stream/team 1 is given a bunch of stuff to do and by day 10 of the 14 days in their sprint they have finished it all. They then have 4 days spare to chip in and assist stream/team 2 in whatever they are doing, and vice versa. I am not sure if staggered dev meant they would be working on separate patches...?

Well

What is staggered development?
Staggered Development is an approach that splits the various development teams between multiple delivery dates. This puts teams into a cadence whereby they are delivering larger features every couple of quarters instead of every quarter, but due to their staggered nature, you would still receive an update every quarter.

...

Staggering the teams like this means 6-month cycles for development instead of 3, which means more time to ensure features are more complete with fewer bugs - all while still delivering quarterly patches.

...

Does this mean no more quarterly releases?
No, this does not impact quarterly releases. We will still release 4 major Star Citizen patches a year.

This change reduces the risk of delivering patches late because it gives us more time to prepare for PTU and Live Releases, and to make Star Citizen a polished, working, and fun game for everyone to enjoy.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Well

Many thanks for the details, always good to see info I've not seen.

Do you have a link I can read the whole thing on, I still don't see the bit where it says they'd be working on the next patch before the current one? It just says they now have multiple different delivery dates so the released patch can be better polished and not 100% bug-ridden.

 

[FZD]

Many thanks for the details, always good to see info I've not seen.

Do you have a link I can read the whole thing on, I still don't see the bit where it says they'd be working on the next patch before the current one? It just says they now have multiple different delivery dates so the released patch can be better polished and not 100% bug-ridden.

Well, they said the teams are
- split on multiple delivery dates
- Those delivery dates are couple quarters apart
- But staggered so that we still get a patch every quarter

I mean, I don't really see many ways to interpret that? Apart from there possibly being 3rd division that is already working on 4.0 stuff. But any way you dice it, as per that explanation there should be a significant number of people working on 3.9

Anyhow, here is the full link:

Staggered Development FAQ - Star Citizen Spectrum

What is staggered development? Staggered Development is an approach that splits the various development teams between multiple delivery dates. This puts teams into a cadence whereby they are...

robertsspaceindustries.com

 

[ColdDog]

I think you're right... after 8 years we finally got everything under control. Anyone with 8 years of experience should be able to get their world under control. I think staggered development is the right choice. As you can see... some of the tech is ALREADY becoming out dated which is a worry for me.

Moore's Law

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

 

[Vavrik]

CIG is using a modified Waterfall Development methodology btw, not Agile (thankfully) and "Staggered Development" is their own invention. It's weird, because it looks like (same terminology as) Staggered Release, which is not supposed to be part of the development cycle but part of the Acceptance Testing regime.
The way I see it is, I don't care much anyway as long as they can produce a timeline and at least basically stick to it.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Well, they said the teams are
- split on multiple delivery dates
- Those delivery dates are couple quarters apart
- But staggered so that we still get a patch every quarter

I mean, I don't really see many ways to interpret that? Apart from there possibly being 3rd division that is already working on 4.0 stuff. But any way you dice it, as per that explanation there should be a significant number of people working on 3.9

Anyhow, here is the full link:

Staggered Development FAQ - Star Citizen Spectrum

What is staggered development? Staggered Development is an approach that splits the various development teams between multiple delivery dates. This puts teams into a cadence whereby they are...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Many thanks for the link, I'll read that now.

From your quotes it said "Larger features with less bugs" it didn't specifically say that one set of teams was working on one patch and another set of teams was working on the next patch which would be what you'd expect if you were expecting 3.9 to be 50% done by now.

Potentially all teams are working on all patches at once, but it doesn't make much sense for it to be like that as the incremental adding of features adds bug which then need to be smashed to make a batter more stable patch release.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I got a different impression. I've got to read the whole article

 

[Michael]

Has been mentioned several times:
Staggered Development will not speed things up, i actually assume it will slow things down (Not on the long run as they hopefully don't need to rework that much).
It should just provide a better quality product once it hits the server.

"The development should be half way done"
Its a fallacy because development isn't linear. Most tasks have been and will be closed exponentially towards the end date. You don't see the real progress of features and tasks, all you see is the time a Director acknowledges a task as complete. (and sets a tick on it)

anyway i would be surprised if stuff doesn't gets delayed.

 

[FZD]

Many thanks for the link, I'll read that now.

From your quotes it said "Larger features with less bugs" it didn't specifically say that one set of teams was working on one patch and another set of teams was working on the next patch which would be what you'd expect if you were expecting 3.9 to be 50% done by now.

You're focusing on the wrong bit. You need to consider this:
"every couple of quarters instead of every quarter".
Every quarter is a patch.
Every couple of quarters therefore is every second patch.
So the teams are divided (possibly unevenly) to work on every second patch, but the work is staggered such that we get a patch every quarter.

"The development should be half way done"
Its a fallacy because development isn't linear. Most tasks have been and will be closed exponentially towards the end date. You don't see the real progress of features and tasks, all you see is the time a Director acknowledges a task as complete. (and sets a tick on it)

By "halfway done" I did not mean that half the tasks should be done. I mean that the overall workload should be (roughly, not exactly) halfway done. Unless you literally have one dev working on each task for 6 months (in which case there would be something seriously, seriously wrong), this should mean there are some tasks completed already here and there, and not just from the features moved from 3.8. I mean, I agree they'll be closed exponentially towards the end date. However, exponents of 0 tend to be 0.

 

[Crymsan]

Already pledged money has been spent so its not as valuable! It wont change ship justice does not exist. Just be grateful the game gets "finished" otherwise whether you got your pixel ship in alpha or not wont matter a bean.

Staggered development is unlikely to speed things up (Project Management is clearly not in Chris Roberts skill set), but it might make it more enjoyable to work there i.e. not chopping and changing what your priorities are as frequently.

 

[Cugino83]

Okey, so I was looking at the roadmap today. Staggered development would mean that 3.9 is halfway done, they've worked on it for 3 months, and they got 3 months to go.

However, what I find kinda odd, is that there seems to be little to no progress on it. What's more, the cards that have progress on them are mostly cards moved from 3.8:
Eddie Parr - Moved from 3.8
Microtech Collection - Moved from 3.8
Klesher Automated Prison - Brand spanking new and nearly done
New Babbage Landing Zone - Interiors - Moved from 3.8
Calliope - Moved from 3.8
Clio - Moved from 3.8
Euterpe - Moved from 3.8
FPS: Cover Usage v1 - Moved from 3.8
PvP Bounties - New?
Death Animation Improvements - Moved from 3.8
Cutlass Blue - No progress - Moved from 3.8
Atzkav Electron Sniper Rifle - No progress - Moved from 3.8

So apart from Klesher Automated Prison and PvP Bounties, every card that has any progress in 3.9 has been moved from 3.8.
And obviously Klesher Automated Prison probably takes a lot of work, but half the team for 3 months?

I don't know, to me it just seems like there will be a bunch of cards in 3.9 moving to 4.0 at this rate. Can't say I'd be surprised, and I know it's still early stages of staggered development but I think I do at some point get to tell you "I told you so", though honestly I was kinda wishing that staggered development would fix things. Sure, I am quite pessimistic about it, but that doesn't mean I wasn't hoping for staggered development to help.

I see your points but keep in mind that the progress are mesured in task not % of completition.
There could be task that are blocked from other and will be compleated quite fast afterward, require more time or are expecting tecnical difficulties not planned.
Untill March I'll not be so warried about it..

 

[Radegast74]

Great points! My gut reaction is that:
a) the Road Map has always been 75% achieveable goals and 25% over-enthusastic thinking;
b) there are things they work on that aren't on the Road Map (the top secret stuff) they have to devote resources to, that impact the time-lines;
c) CR's perfectionism (a good thing in the long run) also drives the effort and can cause extra delays (ex: CR "challenging" the team to build the Microtech spaceport into the side of a mountain --> cool idea, but gonna take extra time).

The other big issue is that, this isn't like building a house, where all the tech challenges are known and nothing needs to be figured out. Something like building a planet with the detail we want, and then having the whole thing load into memory, all while x number of people are on the server? That hasn't been figured out yet. So, deadlines are primarily aspirational for doing stuff like that.

With the ship sales...my reaction is similar, I want the ships I pledged for 3 & 4 years ago...but again, money is the mother's milk of development. They have to keep new money rolling in, otherwise they can't keep working on the project. I have to admire CR's salesmanship, if he couldn't program computers, he probably would be making millions selling used cars, ha ha.