Coronavirus COVID-19 Thread
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Its not a narrative, its what the actual local press in a hard hit state like Mississippi is reporting:
I dont think he is specifically outraged because of this single case, but more of frustration that all of this is largely preventable to some extent.
You are not wrong, its commonly easier to focus outrage when there is a way to personify your frustrations.
In states with large capacity, yes, but in a lot of these smaller states, they are all reporting the same thing. Beds are full and/or under staffed because nurses and doctors have simply had enough and are quitting.
Smaller communities have been losing not only ICU beds but whole hospitals for years. There are whole regions that do not have medical emergency facilities within an hour Most hospitals have struggled with nursing shortages especially trauma and ICU nurses and doctors for years. But yes there has been a burnt out of doctors and nurses over the past almost two years that really is alarming and I am not sure there is an answer to it as it was not a good situation going into this pandemic.
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Is there a reason not to be vaccinated? I cannot think of one but since when have we become so driven to take away another body's autonomy? While the vaccine seems to be doing a great job of reducing one's risk of serious complications from being sick it still does nothing to prevent you from getting sick or sharing the sickness with others. So the truth still stands, people are going to get sick and some of them are going to die. But that has always been the fate of everyone born to date. And we should not allow our fear to cause us to act out and take away another person's choice even if we do not agree with them. History is chock full of the fall out of these actions especially when they look benign or in the best interest of the impacted group.
There will be stories like Daniel who might have been saved if the medical resources were available. In fact, this story plays out a significant amount of time all across the world lots of people die from just not getting access to the care they need, and every time it's tragic but we still go about our daily lives oblivious to them unless it just so happens to be a person we care about, or in this case, a person we can use to justify our desire to encroaching on another's personal freedoms. We make fun of people like Caleb Wallace instead of offering our condolences to the family he left behind. It is much easier to clutch our pearls and say Yep dingle bat got what he deserved if only he did what we told him to do instead of being sympathetic to the pain and suffering that comes with the responsibility of freedoms and that we should do all in our power to safeguard that freedom even if it leads to choices we don't agree with and outcomes we feel would have been prevented if only they did not have the choice to do anything else. For the alternative is what is going on in Afghanistan where there is not a lot of freedom of personal choice.
A great point and very divisive topic that has been the cornerstone of many election cycles in terms of abortion.
Correct, even getting double vaxxed will not stop you from catching COVID delta anymore. It will however greatly increase your odds of living:
What about people who do not want to die and are doing everything in their power to stay alive?
Lets do a thought experiment here by looking at the two extremes:
Scenario A) The entire global population got vaccinated immediately when this all started!
If that happened, its possible that COVID-19 could have been stopped in its tracks and 400,000 more Americans would be alive.
Scenario B) Do nothing!
+3M dead Americans, but herd immunity and lots of freedom?
What is the correct number of dead Americans needed for drastic action to take place?
Lets not confuse fear for hatred of stupidity.
If my young children are playing outside with my neighbors young children, there is a high chance that if one is sick, it gets passed along as it expected with kids.
Now, Ive been a good and thoughtful member of society, Im vaxxed up and being cautious. I am not "scared" or fearful. My neighbor on the other hand, they heard that the vaccine has dead fetus inside it from their pastor, so they do not want to get it. They also work in a job that puts them in contact with a lot of different people on daily basis. I am not worried about dying, my kids are very likely going to be ok.. but you know what? My elderly parents are visiting, even though they are vaxxed, there is still a very big danger of them getting very sick if exposed.
I am not scared, but I sure do hate the fucking stupid decisions my neighbors make that could kill my elderly parents visiting their grandkids.
PS this is an actual real life example.
Here is my stance on this topic, if you are an anti-vaxxer and you die, that is sad. You took the risk, you lost.
If you re an anti-vaxxer who has a platform and is convincing others that their freedom is at risk and hundreds or thousands of people are listening to you and dying ... I have zero sympathy and Im glad you are dead.
As you can see from his gofundme page, thousands of people are offering condolences and financial support. Like I said in my post, I feel terrible for his three kids and unborn child who now have to grow up without their father.
Yeah it's hard to feel bad about guys like Caleb Wallace.
I understand that people have reservations about the vaccine but this guy went beyond that. He was an anti-Vaxxer/Masker/Lockdown conspiracy theorist type who probably revelled in his 5 minutes of fame among like minded people.
Had he kept it to himself, nobody would bat an eye. Perhaps we might even sympathize in his passing and the hardship it has brought to his family. This dude, however, decided to go full blown 'Freedom Fighter', rallied hard against mask/lockdown measures, and tried to convince others to do the same. He was also one of the guys who went full R-word and took Ivermectin, that livestock deworming drug that's been making the circles in alternative Covid treatment circles. Goddamn textbook Dunning-Kruger case.
To top it all off, he was also a prominent member of a Far right Militia Group.
You know who I feel bad for? All the medical professionals who have to put up with this nonsense. My own partner and her colleagues have been cursed, kicked, and spat at by assholes who even in their dying breath spew the same nonsense as Wallace at people who are trying to save their lives. They've had to put up with over a year of stress, mental/physical burnout and full on PTSD trying to fight this pandemic for all of us. Meanwhile guys like Wallace are not only not cooperating, they're actively sabotaging their efforts. You know why doctors and nurses are quitting en masse lately? Yeah partly because of this shit.
I don't begrudge people for not masking up and getting vaccinated (I do think less of them though). It's when they stand on a pulpit and try to sway other as well that I get really...pissed..off.
In short. Eff him.
I understand that people have reservations about the vaccine but this guy went beyond that. He was an anti-Vaxxer/Masker/Lockdown conspiracy theorist type who probably revelled in his 5 minutes of fame among like minded people.
Had he kept it to himself, nobody would bat an eye. Perhaps we might even sympathize in his passing and the hardship it has brought to his family. This dude, however, decided to go full blown 'Freedom Fighter', rallied hard against mask/lockdown measures, and tried to convince others to do the same. He was also one of the guys who went full R-word and took Ivermectin, that livestock deworming drug that's been making the circles in alternative Covid treatment circles. Goddamn textbook Dunning-Kruger case.
To top it all off, he was also a prominent member of a Far right Militia Group.
You know who I feel bad for? All the medical professionals who have to put up with this nonsense. My own partner and her colleagues have been cursed, kicked, and spat at by assholes who even in their dying breath spew the same nonsense as Wallace at people who are trying to save their lives. They've had to put up with over a year of stress, mental/physical burnout and full on PTSD trying to fight this pandemic for all of us. Meanwhile guys like Wallace are not only not cooperating, they're actively sabotaging their efforts. You know why doctors and nurses are quitting en masse lately? Yeah partly because of this shit.
I don't begrudge people for not masking up and getting vaccinated (I do think less of them though). It's when they stand on a pulpit and try to sway other as well that I get really...pissed..off.
In short. Eff him.
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Im really curious to hear about this.
What exactly do they think they are dying of?
Do these patients accept that its COVID?
Are they demanding medications or treatments other than what the doctors are offering?
It really is. But I do find it entertaining that the group that previously had the most anti-vaxxers and fully supported abortion is now fully ostracizing those who don't want to vaccinate themselves for their own reasons. While the party that was fully against abortions is now wanting body autonomy.
I was more directing it towards the grand fate of everyone born that in time they will die. Some in quiet whimpers in the night others in dramatic fireballs. But you are right there has been a few percent increases in the yearly death totals over the 5-year average that could have lived years longer. But it's impossible to say how much longer they would have lived if not for the virus's ultimate end. But I am also reminded that the end does come for us all and it always comes way too early. Especially when it's kids.
People have been killing themselves since the dawn of time in stupid ways and sometimes they even end up taking others with them. There are whole websites dedicated to showcasing the many ways people have contributed to their own demises in often silly ways. And while this has lead to warnings and safety precautions on lots of things (mostly due to the families of the recently departed blaming others for their deaths and taking it to court) most of us do not give it much of a second thought. And while you might not be afraid or act out in fear we both know there is no cure for stupidity or the many ways that their actions lead to their deaths. But this is not to also discount that there are millions of people living in fear of the virus.
So in this example, you allowed your children to play with neighbors whose work requires them to be in contact with lots of people and whom you know are against the vaccine? Even if they had the vaccine they still have an elevated risk of contracting covid and children are virus magnets in general. Where is the responsibility of you as parents and even more importantly the responsibility of the elderly parents in their choice of risks? I am not saying no one is responsible in this scenario but I would strongly suggest that the greatest of responsibility falls more directly on the actions of those who are at the greatest risk. So either the Grandparents accept the possibility that they are at a higher risk, choose to not visit in person or have ones kids not play with the neighbor's kids. But since when does our wants give us the right to force others to comply with our wishes? Should the neighbor get vaccinated? I'd would say yes but not because it protects your grandparents but because it protects them and reduces the chances that they leave their children orphaned.
In this I agree with you. We all weigh our risks daily even driving a car carries a pretty high risk of death.
My issue is not that they were spreading rather sad views but that they did not have a very big influence. Heck prior to his name being used as the poster child of anti anti vax propaganda he didn't even have a wiki page. But since his death, he has been elevated to a political spotlight that far surpasses his fame in life for the purpose of pointing fingers and beating the drums of the self-righteous, that the vast majority never knew who they were and would never have known who they were if not for the fact that it is politically convenient, low hanging fruit. To portray them as huge propaganda machines who have convinced thousands to not be vaccinated and is why we now need to force them to be. When in truth they have far fewer followers than most Instagram influencers who have said far more destructive things. Nor does it remove the responsibility of the individual to choose their own fate. But to take a small-time radio personality and project him as some harbinger of why personal body autonomy should be trampled seems to be disingenuous.
A number of them scream that it’s just a bad case of the flu, pneumonia, etc. They do ask for alternative treatments and get upset when the doctors refuse them. As the hospital has been trying to avoid usage of ventilators unless absolutely necessary, many of the patients have been asked to go in a prone position to assist in their breathing. Of course many patients refuse to do that.
All that non-cooperation stop when their condition worsen and they’re put on ventilators. At that point It’s a toss of the dice as to whether they’ll make it or not.
For some reason, many of the more belligerent patients have been older Central/Eastern European immigrants. A number of the flat out aggressive ones that the nurses hate dealing with are Polish, Russian, Serbian, etc. I don’t know if it’s a language thing but there seems to be a deep distrust in the doctors and nurses.
There have been patients who the nurses sympathize with of course. There’s one patient who’s a young athletic 30 year old dude. He avoided getting vaccinated because him and his wife have been trying to conceive and they believe it’ll affect fertility. Dude isn’t a hardcore anti vaxxer or anything, just misinformed. He’ll make it but will probably have long term lung tissue damage.
It's truly a shame that medical personal have to put with this nonsense, not just from the few who are upset over being in the hospital for ignoring the reality of their situation but it's not unique to covid deniers and anti vaxers. It's common for drunks and drug users, the homeless, and many others.
Honestly, I think everyone had just continued to ignore him it would have been for the best. There was no reason to bring him up in the first place.
I can tell you what's happening in Texas.
There are some hard core antivaxxers, but I've started seeing it for something different. So far, all of the antivaxxers in my neighbors, friends and family that I know of are also afraid of needles. That includes two of my son in law's and one daughter. They become absolutely petrified when faced with the possibility of a needle, and will find any excuse they can not to get one. That's become what I think of antivaxxers.
But here's a pair of problems they face.
First is a moral problem since we have had the vaccines. That is, if they contract COVID-19, then transmit it to another and that person dies... who bears the responsibility for their death?
Second is that the US does not have an endless bucket to pay for all this. At some point, for next year or the following year, I think we're going to see medical insurance companies begin to refuse to pay for COVID related care for unvaccinated people. One of my kids works for an insurance company, and told me they're already making noises about going that direction.
Would be interesting to see what comes from the Insurance angle and if it's allowed to go that direction where does it stop? Does lung cancer from smoking also carry the same refuse coverage?
Not so much now, but this is cultural I think, and is common in many older Slavic people. It's related to carryover from medieval medical practice, followed by communism. A lot of shit was forced down their throats that they didn't understand, and that wasn't necessarily healthy. Consequently, they more or less trust homeopathic remedies, and more or less mistrust hospitals. That's how it was explained to me when I was in Russia.
I surprised they have not already taken action.
Non-smokers pay much lower insurance premiums already.
It would be interesting. Right now, smoking carries an insurance penalty here. You pay more. Quit smoking and your premiums start to drop.
That is actually the more likely outcome of this... that insurance rates will go up for unvaccinated people.
FYI In most of the rest of the G20, health care is simply part of taxation, and costs about half what it costs for the same coverage as you get in the US, with no appreciable difference in care... except they tend to live longer.
Hmm I don’t think that’s an accurate comparison. Drunks, drug users, etc aren’t necessarily carrying highly infectious virus like COVID.
The thing though is that this fool was a victim as well in many ways. He probably spent way too much time watching certain ‘news’ networks and listening to certain ‘personalities’. Personalities who spend months bashing anti-COVID measures and vaccines. Personalities who make millions a year and are probably, secretly vaccinated. Yeah those guys I can’t ignore because I have lost friends and family members to them.
I understand that completely. I’m cautiously optimistic that promising new COVID treatments/vaccines that are administered orally will solve this problem for a lot of people.
It is interesting how much health coverage costs in the USA. So far I have not found a reason for it. Every time I talk to my doctor friends over a cold one they don't know why beyond their frustrations at the mountain of paperwork they have to fill out after each visit and hire coders for insurance billing. Those in hospital billing just shake their head at the amount of charges that just get written off and never collected on. Public hospitals seem to be very skilled at the black art of bookkeeping and in general, it just seems like everyone knows it costs way more than it should but no one is sure why as the amount billed should be making the hospitals lined in gold but most are struggling to keep their lights on.
That makes sense.
Another thing that really pisses the nurses off is the casual racism.
Many of these patients really don’t like black people or darker skinned Asians taking care of them, going so far as to refuse care unless they get a White nurse or something.
Like seriously? COVID is trashing your lungs and this is the cross you wanna die on?
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The comparison wasn't in that they might or might not be caring a highly infections disease but in their behaviour towards those who are doing their best to help them and how it's not right. And it's not something new or limited to those who deny the benefits of the vaccine or the existence of Covid. I would also go so far as to say that most of the covid patients are well aware of their condition and are thankful for the medical assistance they are getting while scared and afraid. Some might even take that fear further into entitlement feeling like if they could get more care they would have a better outcome and thus the nurse is killing them by seeing other patients.
We can't nor should we protect people from dissident voices. The best we can do is hope truth will prevail and know that no matter how many facts you can present some people they will still insist the moon is made of cheese and the landings faked on a Hollywood backlot.
The far greater risk on controlling dissident voices of picking what is fake news and cannot be shared is in creating the sword that is used against you when the tides of power shift, we chastise places like China and North Korea in their censorship of what is state truths and then we turn around and attempt the same. While our intentions might be for the best at the start it never stays there.