Here are my thoughts on the outrage we are seeing on Spectrum and Reddit.
[Video] Roadmap Rage - The community is losing patience.
- Thread starter Montoya
- Start date
Clap clap clap, well said!
When I saw the vid from noobi I was pissed off as hell. Removing every single feature from the next patch that mattered was a slap in the face, but my cheeks have been red for many years now, very disappointing as usual but no surprise there. But adding in the fucking coffee shop??? Seriously??? I really had to check that it wasn't April 1st and they were serious about this, that it was real.
Btw, weren't we promised a working bartender for years now, like with every goddamn patch? The funny thing is it did work way back when, I remember asking for a drink and receiving it and drinking it, even though it was glitchy as hell. Since then it was removed and never worked again. So now they are adding the very important coffee shop feature. Yeah, Fuck you CIG!
They could've handled this sooooo much better by just not adding the " here's a coffee vendor hahahaha, suckers" at the end, and also by putting this message into a proper video, with Jared explaining that shits mixing up, ppl are moving around, major features will get postponed due to SQ42 and the new studio, some B roll playing in the background of packing up, airplanes, Big Ben, etc etc... and all this leading to a new kind of progress tracker view so they can work in peace. The vast majority would have bought it and would have been okay with it, the pitchforks would have been left in the corner to rust until the next new-ship balance pass or sumthin.
It would be good to see something new about SQ42 yes, as it is the thing that started this whole project, even if some backers like to think it was always all about the PU...
When I saw the vid from noobi I was pissed off as hell. Removing every single feature from the next patch that mattered was a slap in the face, but my cheeks have been red for many years now, very disappointing as usual but no surprise there. But adding in the fucking coffee shop??? Seriously??? I really had to check that it wasn't April 1st and they were serious about this, that it was real.
Btw, weren't we promised a working bartender for years now, like with every goddamn patch? The funny thing is it did work way back when, I remember asking for a drink and receiving it and drinking it, even though it was glitchy as hell. Since then it was removed and never worked again. So now they are adding the very important coffee shop feature. Yeah, Fuck you CIG!
They could've handled this sooooo much better by just not adding the " here's a coffee vendor hahahaha, suckers" at the end, and also by putting this message into a proper video, with Jared explaining that shits mixing up, ppl are moving around, major features will get postponed due to SQ42 and the new studio, some B roll playing in the background of packing up, airplanes, Big Ben, etc etc... and all this leading to a new kind of progress tracker view so they can work in peace. The vast majority would have bought it and would have been okay with it, the pitchforks would have been left in the corner to rust until the next new-ship balance pass or sumthin.
It would be good to see something new about SQ42 yes, as it is the thing that started this whole project, even if some backers like to think it was always all about the PU...
The problem is not removing stuff.
Personally I would just like a more depth explanation. Im invested into this development, I feel like Im part of it. Tell me what has held salvage back because I am really interested in understanding the process better.
And I assume that in-depth explanation aka treating you the customer with respect and not as a necessary evil of doing business like others do, is why you do spend way more money on jpeg ships than you otherwise would. Imagine not knowing what was in the works, what was coming, at all! Would you have spent hundreds of dollars on a ship?
I too, like the technical aspect, I would love to know which old system is holding it back. Is it the shaders, is it the database handling, is the ship models need to be reworked again.. It would be nice but it seems like the only time they are willing to go in depth is CitCon, and even then it was very shallow compared to a couple years ago.
Check back all the old vids you made defending SC, whether it was from raging redditors or some craptacular article from a urinalist. Every single time you popped up the roadmap on screen, and showed what was done, what was coming, and how much of it was done. It was a legitimate defense against calling SC a scam, because we knew what was coming, and sometimes even knew when it was coming. It was beginning to turn into an inside joke with all the delays, but still it was there and it was real. That is gone now.
Along with it, part of whats kept us here is gone as well. Waiting for the next actual feature, like medical gameplay or looting or selling in shops, that's what keeps people around. If we won't know what we are witing for, why the hell would we stay?
how far back did the push salvage this time? was it completely removed agian? i just want at least the V1 of the system the reclaimer has been in the game since like 3.0 and i have been waiting years to actually use it even if it is glitchy and busted or useless i dont care i just want to play my part as space trashman.
The wording makes it seem like they are being reactive to the noise of a number of backers who are being reactive, in a project that by its nature can't be accurately predicted or controlled like a normal day job.
It's a combination that can become a powderkeg, especially when the ignorant (either inside or outside) make demands that simply cannot be met. Doesn't help that hate and anger have become everyday commodities.
Can CIG do better, or find a path to relieve this? Maybe not. There seems to be a persistent level of decision making that as you say is disconnected from the community, or has lost the ability to understand the implications of the choices made. This isn't news, it has been evident repeatedly over the last few years which leads me to think it comes from a high position.
It might be that they've weathered so much negativity that all they really want to do is shutter the windows and code. Kick a dog enough times it will run away; for humans this is even more true.
It's a combination that can become a powderkeg, especially when the ignorant (either inside or outside) make demands that simply cannot be met. Doesn't help that hate and anger have become everyday commodities.
Can CIG do better, or find a path to relieve this? Maybe not. There seems to be a persistent level of decision making that as you say is disconnected from the community, or has lost the ability to understand the implications of the choices made. This isn't news, it has been evident repeatedly over the last few years which leads me to think it comes from a high position.
It might be that they've weathered so much negativity that all they really want to do is shutter the windows and code. Kick a dog enough times it will run away; for humans this is even more true.
GrumpyCat
Space Marshal
[Deleted by Synthwave-CIG]
This post has been edited by Moderation and the user has been PMd
But seriously, this whole thing is obnoxious. I have 0 love for CIG anymore, literally all I can think is "fuck CIG". I know I'm being one of those "overly emotional vocal community members", but I have put up with their shit for 10's of thousands of dollars and 8 or so years.
I can't even tone down my messaging with, "AS A LONGTIME BACKER AND LOVER OF ALL THINGS STAR CITIZEN" anymore. I gag on it.
**EDIT**
On a more productive note, I immediately knew you were going to hit on this drama, concisely laying out all the missteps they have done in such quick succession. It's super nice knowing there is a content creator I can just wait to put out a video I know is going to tell it as it is.
This post has been edited by Moderation and the user has been PMd
But seriously, this whole thing is obnoxious. I have 0 love for CIG anymore, literally all I can think is "fuck CIG". I know I'm being one of those "overly emotional vocal community members", but I have put up with their shit for 10's of thousands of dollars and 8 or so years.
I can't even tone down my messaging with, "AS A LONGTIME BACKER AND LOVER OF ALL THINGS STAR CITIZEN" anymore. I gag on it.
**EDIT**
On a more productive note, I immediately knew you were going to hit on this drama, concisely laying out all the missteps they have done in such quick succession. It's super nice knowing there is a content creator I can just wait to put out a video I know is going to tell it as it is.
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Radegast74
Space Marshal
It seems like, on top of all their usual issues, CIG put a new manager in at marketing (?) as well as elevated marketing's role inside the company, and now we are getting just crap shoveled at us.
I get it, they need to increase their revenues as they expand, but they should just keep raising money & selling ships the way they always have --> by being honest and having the dev's communicate with us about what's working and what challenges they are facing.
I get it, they need to increase their revenues as they expand, but they should just keep raising money & selling ships the way they always have --> by being honest and having the dev's communicate with us about what's working and what challenges they are facing.
Now I've watched the video...
I had to go look at that original message about the roadmap from CIG.
Yeah that is an exceedingly poor use of words:
"But there still remains a very loud contingent of Roadmap watchers who see projections as promises. And their continued noise every time we shift deliverables has become a distraction both internally at CIG and within our community, as well as to prospective Star Citizen fans watching from the sidelines at our Open Development communications."
and
"the general focus of many of our most passionate players has continued to lead them to interpret anything on the Release View as a promise"
really should have been along the lines of:
"we became aware that the roadmap listing tentative goals was giving a false impression of guarantees which didn't exist, which in turn caused consistent and reoccuring disappointment when things were pushed out to later parches. Because of this, we are scaling back the scope of the roadmap to items we have certainty on to avoid false impressions until such time we can work out a way to display our progress without causing confusion or disappointment."
I don't think the Roadmap information was the issue, I think it was the way it was conveyed was the issue and that is something which is changing. I think they forgot they were not showing the roadmap to other devs or people who actually knew what the word "Tentative" means in relation to releasing features, assets or products. I think they forgot when explaining to a group you have to hit the lowest common denominator as well as the target audience.
The tone of that message is "This roadmap was perfect and we are having to change it because some of you didn't understand how it worked to the point it caused us issues" but this tone is in contrast to the spirit of a Crowd Funder. There is no You and We in a crowd funder, there is only Us... The tone should have been more conciliatory, if the roadmap wasn't working how CIG wanted it to work, that is an issue with the roadmap that needed to be resolved and could have been more like "We attempted to do something with the roadmap which unfortunately caused a misimpression and disappointment for some, so we are working on getting it right. This means the following changes (etc,etc)"
- EDIT -
Oh, and "Even though we always added a caveat that a card could move" is a dead giveaway someone too close to Jira or whatever management tool they use wrote this. Like I'd know what a card is unless I'd had the misfortune of being subjected to one of these management systems? Using technical terminology in a public address to people who don't use that system isn't common denominator, intentional or otherwise it's speaking only to those in the know. Card, Tentative, Deliverable... Even the term "Roadmap": I'm sure my non-dev non-management interpretation of the word "Roadmap" is different to the one CIG and the Roadmap intends it to be. Hell, in my job the term "Unavailable" has three different meanings depending on the data system you are working in... Not ideal!
No offence to the person who wrote that Roadmap Article, the parts what were clear were to be fair, very clear... However it seems it was from a Development/Managment perspective, not a Community perspective and instead of saying "Our intention to inform missed the mark" it did come across as Them and Us and unwisely choosing to attribute blame rather than explain there was an issue and just talking through how it can be resolved. So some backers were so unable to understand the intention of the Roadmap that they were potential TEST members? Then you have to aim and explain your roadmap to ensure it placates those people... which is what's happening...
I had to go look at that original message about the roadmap from CIG.
Roadmap Roundup - February 2nd, 2022 - Roberts Space Industries | Follow the development of Star Citizen and Squadron 42
Roberts Space Industries is the official go-to website for all news about Star Citizen and Squadron 42. It also hosts the online store for game items and merch, as well as all the community tools used by our fans.
robertsspaceindustries.com
Yeah that is an exceedingly poor use of words:
"But there still remains a very loud contingent of Roadmap watchers who see projections as promises. And their continued noise every time we shift deliverables has become a distraction both internally at CIG and within our community, as well as to prospective Star Citizen fans watching from the sidelines at our Open Development communications."
and
"the general focus of many of our most passionate players has continued to lead them to interpret anything on the Release View as a promise"
really should have been along the lines of:
"we became aware that the roadmap listing tentative goals was giving a false impression of guarantees which didn't exist, which in turn caused consistent and reoccuring disappointment when things were pushed out to later parches. Because of this, we are scaling back the scope of the roadmap to items we have certainty on to avoid false impressions until such time we can work out a way to display our progress without causing confusion or disappointment."
I don't think the Roadmap information was the issue, I think it was the way it was conveyed was the issue and that is something which is changing. I think they forgot they were not showing the roadmap to other devs or people who actually knew what the word "Tentative" means in relation to releasing features, assets or products. I think they forgot when explaining to a group you have to hit the lowest common denominator as well as the target audience.
The tone of that message is "This roadmap was perfect and we are having to change it because some of you didn't understand how it worked to the point it caused us issues" but this tone is in contrast to the spirit of a Crowd Funder. There is no You and We in a crowd funder, there is only Us... The tone should have been more conciliatory, if the roadmap wasn't working how CIG wanted it to work, that is an issue with the roadmap that needed to be resolved and could have been more like "We attempted to do something with the roadmap which unfortunately caused a misimpression and disappointment for some, so we are working on getting it right. This means the following changes (etc,etc)"
- EDIT -
Oh, and "Even though we always added a caveat that a card could move" is a dead giveaway someone too close to Jira or whatever management tool they use wrote this. Like I'd know what a card is unless I'd had the misfortune of being subjected to one of these management systems? Using technical terminology in a public address to people who don't use that system isn't common denominator, intentional or otherwise it's speaking only to those in the know. Card, Tentative, Deliverable... Even the term "Roadmap": I'm sure my non-dev non-management interpretation of the word "Roadmap" is different to the one CIG and the Roadmap intends it to be. Hell, in my job the term "Unavailable" has three different meanings depending on the data system you are working in... Not ideal!
No offence to the person who wrote that Roadmap Article, the parts what were clear were to be fair, very clear... However it seems it was from a Development/Managment perspective, not a Community perspective and instead of saying "Our intention to inform missed the mark" it did come across as Them and Us and unwisely choosing to attribute blame rather than explain there was an issue and just talking through how it can be resolved. So some backers were so unable to understand the intention of the Roadmap that they were potential TEST members? Then you have to aim and explain your roadmap to ensure it placates those people... which is what's happening...
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Good video 
I don't want to repost and I know you wanted comments on the topic, so I'll just post the link to my viewpoint.
testsquadron.com
I don't want to repost and I know you wanted comments on the topic, so I'll just post the link to my viewpoint.
Roadmap Roundup: Cutting Release View To Show Next Release Only
Big news for anyone who glances at the Release View in the public roadmap: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18520-Roadmap-Roundup-February-2nd-2022 The salt on Spectrum is exactly what you’d expect...
testsquadron.com
Ya know in the past I would say something like..."Its a distraction from my predicament and anything that keeps my mind on the glass half full is okay no matter the drama".
But here I am 6 years out and still as contemptuous as ever..What I mean to say is I feel like a parent giving money away to a teenager who has a project that I don't mind indulging regardless of outcome.
Disappointing but it does give me pleasure in game even if I feel my input and opinion means nothing to the recipient of my investment at CIG.
Happy thoughts
But here I am 6 years out and still as contemptuous as ever..What I mean to say is I feel like a parent giving money away to a teenager who has a project that I don't mind indulging regardless of outcome.
Disappointing but it does give me pleasure in game even if I feel my input and opinion means nothing to the recipient of my investment at CIG.
Happy thoughts
Devil Dog Hog
Space Marshal
As a long time backer I agree. These recent moves by CIG makes me hesitant to recommend it to any friends or potential players. This feels almost like a crack in the foundation of what we (the players/backers) and Chris made back when the game was first pitched and funded, and even all the way up till now. It was a game that was grassroots funded, completely player backed, no outside influences from AAA publishers, and would listen to the players and what was feasible to code/make. I understand development is what it is, and I will grant them that its not easy to do the scope of what they want to accomplish, but if this feedback and current process continues down this current path their on, it could run the risk of alienating the defenders of the game, the word of mouth publicity they get, and the consistent influx of new players (and new money) during its holiday sales. Lower player base, less income could add up to them bringing in non player backed monies like they did a few years back. If that starts to happen it will no longer be a player driven community and game. Instead we will get BF2042 or Cyberpunk. On the flip side, at least those are released (RIP Sqd42).
The timing was poor and they should've read the room better.
This is like a comedian making a pro abortion joke at a GOP rally.
This is like a comedian making a pro abortion joke at a GOP rally.
CIG controls expectations, literally.
There wasn't even a need to bring up the community honestly.
It's not the communities fault that they turned the Road Map into yet another Wish List for future content. Something they said they were done doing, btw.
Road Map features were suppose to be the items of development close to finish that are ready to be tested in PTU. If something isn't close to being finished and implementable ... Don't put it on the Road Map.
Otherwise, you deserve the same OLD criticism as in the past. CIG said the new Road Map would be different. It hasn't.
There wasn't even a need to bring up the community honestly.
It's not the communities fault that they turned the Road Map into yet another Wish List for future content. Something they said they were done doing, btw.
Road Map features were suppose to be the items of development close to finish that are ready to be tested in PTU. If something isn't close to being finished and implementable ... Don't put it on the Road Map.
Otherwise, you deserve the same OLD criticism as in the past. CIG said the new Road Map would be different. It hasn't.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
If Roadmap rage were at a significant high this would be reflected in the earnings and is not. Therefore the supposed Rage is not a significant phenomenon. It's one or more people making an unusual amount of complaint. Nothing new here. Move along.