Tractor beams and salvage game loops are going to be big! (Video)
- Thread starter Montoya
- Start date
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Sorry I missed this and posted a duplicate. I’m on my phone so can’t delete it but I’m sure it will die quickly.
I’m personally hoping for two things here. First, that we’ll be able to flip a switch in the cockpit and ships like the 315 will autoload their cargo spaces. It needs to be powerful or there’s no advantage to mounting a big ass tractor on the nose of that little ship. CIG can astonish us or disappoint. No in between.
Second, I want to see what this abduction technique looks like. Can you stow someone direct into a cargo like container? Where do we go with this? Is there a way to offload an entire squad from a hovering ship? Can we place space mines, bombs, stealth sensor arrays, etc? We’ve been waiting on autonomous sensors and 4.0 could be the time to drop them.
These two have all kinds of implications for the rule of cool. Please, please, please do not disappoint. Give us some things for new loops and frivolity.
I’m personally hoping for two things here. First, that we’ll be able to flip a switch in the cockpit and ships like the 315 will autoload their cargo spaces. It needs to be powerful or there’s no advantage to mounting a big ass tractor on the nose of that little ship. CIG can astonish us or disappoint. No in between.
Second, I want to see what this abduction technique looks like. Can you stow someone direct into a cargo like container? Where do we go with this? Is there a way to offload an entire squad from a hovering ship? Can we place space mines, bombs, stealth sensor arrays, etc? We’ve been waiting on autonomous sensors and 4.0 could be the time to drop them.
These two have all kinds of implications for the rule of cool. Please, please, please do not disappoint. Give us some things for new loops and frivolity.
I do worry that the introduction of hull stripping and physical cargo in 3.18, likely closely followed by component\weapon stripping in 3.19 is pushing the game too far in the direction of pirate\"PVP" gameplay at the expense of the PVE portion of the community, and hope that some "counter" is planned for 3.19 to help the PVE crowd in the way that the incresed jail times and single location to clear crime stats appears to have been designed for 3.18.
The problem CIG need to worry about isn't the general PVP or PVE players, who can usually co-exist and likely make up he majority of the playerbase, but a subsection of the "pirates"\"PVP" players who make it their goal to solely target those who are least able to defend themselves. This last group (a minority of players) tend to be the biggest threat to the future of the game, as their "gameplay" (and prominent promotion of it) seems to depend almost entirely on the PVE\Industry players in the game, and without something in place to provide a "limit" to their activities, they risk pushing the inductrial players away from the game, at which point their own "gameplay" comes to a halt and so they will leave for another game, while Star Citizen is left with a much smaller pool of players\potential players and a reputation of being unwelcoming for those who aren't interested in PVP gameplay.
At the same time, I do hope that the ability to remove\replace components in ships may mean we are closing in on the return of persistant hangars, where we can roam among the ships we have located at a city\station, and move\replace components\weapons\cargo between them (Or use as a cargo\item depot for future trade runs).
The problem CIG need to worry about isn't the general PVP or PVE players, who can usually co-exist and likely make up he majority of the playerbase, but a subsection of the "pirates"\"PVP" players who make it their goal to solely target those who are least able to defend themselves. This last group (a minority of players) tend to be the biggest threat to the future of the game, as their "gameplay" (and prominent promotion of it) seems to depend almost entirely on the PVE\Industry players in the game, and without something in place to provide a "limit" to their activities, they risk pushing the inductrial players away from the game, at which point their own "gameplay" comes to a halt and so they will leave for another game, while Star Citizen is left with a much smaller pool of players\potential players and a reputation of being unwelcoming for those who aren't interested in PVP gameplay.
At the same time, I do hope that the ability to remove\replace components in ships may mean we are closing in on the return of persistant hangars, where we can roam among the ships we have located at a city\station, and move\replace components\weapons\cargo between them (Or use as a cargo\item depot for future trade runs).
In the past when I have raised this opportunistic Player On Player style predation (I can't call it PvP, as there is no Verses) I have been advised to hire escorts.
The reality of being hired by a hauler for a 2 hour trip making a 10% profit for the hauler (not guaranteed due to fluctuations in buy/sell prices), which in turn would be a 10%/20% take of that profit per escort, when those players could make the same amount in 20 minutes on a clear the satilites mission, brings it home to them no, for the most part that isn't happening because a) it's a waste of time for the escort players who could be doing lucrative missions especially as b) there is no guarantee of combat contact on that tour.
For more of my thoughts on PoP please see this old thread:
Some thoughts on Player Verses Player when it lacks the "Verses"
Hello TESTies. TL;DR I'm not sure but I think I've observed a complication with multi-disciplinary PvP games which might be giving a misleading impression whenever anyone says "SC is a PvP game" it's more than that and I might have picked up on something which has always been there but I don't...
testsquadron.com
I do remember seeing that thread when you started it... Not sure why I didn't chime in at the time.In the past when I have raised this opportunistic Player On Player style predation (I can't call it PvP, as there is no Verses) I have been advised to hire escorts.
The reality of being hired by a hauler for a 2 hour trip making a 10% profit for the hauler (not guaranteed due to fluctuations in buy/sell prices), which in turn would be a 10%/20% take of that profit per escort, when those players could make the same amount in 20 minutes on a clear the satilites mission, brings it home to them no, for the most part that isn't happening because a) it's a waste of time for the escort players who could be doing lucrative missions especially as b) there is no guarantee of combat contact on that tour.
For more of my thoughts on PoP please see this old thread:
Some thoughts on Player Verses Player when it lacks the "Verses"
Hello TESTies. TL;DR I'm not sure but I think I've observed a complication with multi-disciplinary PvP games which might be giving a misleading impression whenever anyone says "SC is a PvP game" it's more than that and I might have picked up on something which has always been there but I don't...
I don't know about you, but I've found that in discussions about this subject, the people who are most likely to say "hire escorts" are those who have no interest or experience in either the role of escort or escorted... They also tend to claim that because every ship is fitted with guns, those flying them have "consented" to combat: If the pilots were to have removed the guns to show they had no interest in "combat", though, they'd then say that the player simply chose to put themselves in a situation where they couln't defend themselves and that by having a ship capable of carrying weapons they "consented" to potential combat.
When the game is completed, calls for hiring escorts would make sense, as there would be an economy to support them, as well as sufficient "threat" (both PVE and PVP) to make escort duty enjoyable for those wishing to take it on. In the current state, however, there are more lucrative (and "enjoyable") things that potential "escorts" can be doing with their game time, so there is nothing to draw them to the role. Similarly, the economy isn't advanced enough to allow adequate "income" for the "escort" and "escorted", nor is the law (player reputation, security responce and\or punishment) at an adequate level.
While potentially having a place in the final product, I see "Player on Player" as detrimental to the game in its current state given the number of potential players (primarily\exclusively PVE focussed) it can tun away from the game, compared to the number it attracts, coupled with the fact that at some point there won't be enough "targets" for those who enjoy player on player "gameplay", at which point they will tend to leave for another game, having removed themseleves as well as their former "targets" from the player pool\source of development funds.
.
The paper-scissors-stone analogy is wildly skewed to the stone right now because the scissors are being blunted and a stone wrapped in paper is still able to bludgeon the sh!t out of whateve it chooses, including the paper. Other than some admittedly interesting mechanics there is not much decentivising preditory PoP right now.
There will be balance of a sort eventually I'm sure. There wont be any way to start playing if there isnt at least one UEE safe system where you can fly solo and get to grips with the game.
At this point in time I'm guessing the eventual solution for constraining hostility in the verse may be not only the rep system barring hostile actors from landing zones and stations, but also their bad rap contaminating anyone who assists them as accomplices making them litteral outlaws in safe space. Combined with security services and jail, hell it might even work.
If they cant land, if they cant resupply, and NPCs are the main barrier to their actions in areas where NPCs are 90% of the population rather than relying on willing players tackling them, their time in safe space is limited to how big their fuel tanks, shields and ammo boxes are, and that time will be spent jousting with AIs mostly... with anyone who helps them refuel/resupply getting the same treatment by association, it could strangle ingress keeping strife to the outer lawless systems where other threats such as the environment (like pyros solar ejections) and the Vanduul would also exist to contend with.
Or who knows, a company known for innovation may be able to cone up with a new approach that really works.
I'm hopeful still, but am wary. It'll be all in the balance, but I'm quite confident of one thing: if an in-the-moment counter to PoP can't be found, the players subjected to a PoPers prior dominance will still need to see that justice done, be it being added to a UEE unwelcome list or being locked up in Kielscher, if it happens but no one is aware of it, it may disincentivise PoPing but it wont bring any incentive for submissive play styles to keep persevering in what may otherwise be considered to be in labour in vain.
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I find it interesting that of the 3 main play styles, only one is dependant on players of another play style. At the same time, those who enjoy that play style are often demanding that those they are dependant on should be happy to participate in this style of play for their benefit:
PVE players are the least demanding of others, either happy to play on their own, or co-operatively with other, similarly minded players.
PVP players come next, being dependant on other similarly minded players for their gameplay.
In between these are the "Player on Player" players, who are dependant on PVE players in order to be able to enjoy their play style, demanding those PVE players should accept their right to play as they want, while at the same time showing a lack of respect for the PVE players right to play the way they wanted...
The ability to integrate PVE and PVP into the same game is certainly a challenge - The original ideas of a "PVE\PVP slider" and private servers seems to have been overtaken by time and the progress of the game's development. Now, the best option seems to be a combination of differing "security level" for each system (a replacement for the "PVE\PVP slider"), along with appropriate punishment (both instant - prison, as well as persistant - criminal reputation) for those who step out of line.
My concern is that the "stick" (punishment) isn't keeping up with the "carrot" (Physical cargo to steal, ships to "salvage" - both hull scraping and components\weapons in the near future, etc.) and that this delay runs the risk of both driving away PVE players (present and potential) from the game, closely followed by the player-on-player style players as those their play style depended on are no longer present, as well as making it harder to balance in the future as once people become used to something, having it scaled back tends to lead to vocal complaints of "nerfs"...
With "criminal" (player on player) style gameplay, where one players reward comes at the expence of another potentially unwilling player, I fell they would be better served by making the initial "reward" as low as possible, while adding a high degree of risk. This could slowly be adjusted in favor of the "criminal" over time to encourage the level of such activity that is desired, rather than starting with a green light for the activity, then clamping down on it as appears to be happening with 3.18 and possibly 3.19.
One thing I hadn't initially thought of, however, with the tractor beams and salvage, is that it won't only be players ships which can be looted for components\weapons. It's possible that CIG may randomise the compnents in NPC ships rather than leaving them flying stock models, so salvaging their wrecks could include the chance of finding "purple" (top tier) components and so incentivize PVE combat over player on player combat for such items\best "profit": It may also encourage more industry players to have a go at combat as well, rather than seeking to avoid it...
PVE players are the least demanding of others, either happy to play on their own, or co-operatively with other, similarly minded players.
PVP players come next, being dependant on other similarly minded players for their gameplay.
In between these are the "Player on Player" players, who are dependant on PVE players in order to be able to enjoy their play style, demanding those PVE players should accept their right to play as they want, while at the same time showing a lack of respect for the PVE players right to play the way they wanted...
The ability to integrate PVE and PVP into the same game is certainly a challenge - The original ideas of a "PVE\PVP slider" and private servers seems to have been overtaken by time and the progress of the game's development. Now, the best option seems to be a combination of differing "security level" for each system (a replacement for the "PVE\PVP slider"), along with appropriate punishment (both instant - prison, as well as persistant - criminal reputation) for those who step out of line.
My concern is that the "stick" (punishment) isn't keeping up with the "carrot" (Physical cargo to steal, ships to "salvage" - both hull scraping and components\weapons in the near future, etc.) and that this delay runs the risk of both driving away PVE players (present and potential) from the game, closely followed by the player-on-player style players as those their play style depended on are no longer present, as well as making it harder to balance in the future as once people become used to something, having it scaled back tends to lead to vocal complaints of "nerfs"...
With "criminal" (player on player) style gameplay, where one players reward comes at the expence of another potentially unwilling player, I fell they would be better served by making the initial "reward" as low as possible, while adding a high degree of risk. This could slowly be adjusted in favor of the "criminal" over time to encourage the level of such activity that is desired, rather than starting with a green light for the activity, then clamping down on it as appears to be happening with 3.18 and possibly 3.19.
One thing I hadn't initially thought of, however, with the tractor beams and salvage, is that it won't only be players ships which can be looted for components\weapons. It's possible that CIG may randomise the compnents in NPC ships rather than leaving them flying stock models, so salvaging their wrecks could include the chance of finding "purple" (top tier) components and so incentivize PVE combat over player on player combat for such items\best "profit": It may also encourage more industry players to have a go at combat as well, rather than seeking to avoid it...
One detail I hadn't seen anyone mention:
In the ISC video, they show 1SCU containers being loaded onto a Hull C at around the 4:20 mark. However the RAFT Q and A includes this:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/18441-Q-A-ARGO-RAFT
It would be interesting to know whether the video indicates a permanent change to what the Hull C can carry, or is an interim measure until Pyro arrives to give people a reaosn to use it.
the solution is clearly to join TEST SQUADRON which is the BEST SQUARDON and party up with people. do not play alone.
If one can't be comfortable playing with oneself, can one truly be comfortable playing with other Testies?
I play with myself alone most of the time as I don't think it's appropriate to invite you guys in.
I found that out when I worked in a callcentre.
I found that out when I worked in a callcentre.
I worked in a callcenter, I know exactly what you mean.
Personal tractor beam vs a ship, if that's the case then what's stopping people from standing on the rear deck of one ship pulling another ship ? It kind of negates the SRV (outside of warping). A rifle with a targeted EMP round to neutralize the ship power would be more believable.
The ship being towed is going to need to be able to be rotated so it can be put on a pad right side up.
Component stripping ships should be disabled as long as the ship has shields up or is powered, maybe have a toggle which allows component stripping/replacing/reloading while active. Just watched the full video.
They're definitely going to need some control over picking up people with a tractor beam (maybe certain level of crime stat or wanted state) or people are going to find themselves getting tossed off a cliff and looted.
The ship being towed is going to need to be able to be rotated so it can be put on a pad right side up.
They're definitely going to need some control over picking up people with a tractor beam (maybe certain level of crime stat or wanted state) or people are going to find themselves getting tossed off a cliff and looted.
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ThunderKraken
Space Marshal
I'd say make it so that the stronger tractor beams cannot control orientation, that way any player who is picked up by them can turn around and shoot. using tractor beams on live (not incapacitated) player characters should also present an opportunity to press charges which can incur crimestat, which will make shooting them legal.
KuruptU4Fun
Vice Admiral
I think the big change here will be when players can set their own waypoints directly which allows for them to avoid the PvP players only interested in attacking pc's instead of npc's in situations like this. If you can set it to where you can fly just off of the beaten path of major commercial lanes then the players will feel safer.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Another point to keep in mind for 3.19, it should be the first patch where we’ll be able to swap components in the field. So if you’re flying a medium ship or larger, or a small ship with an actual cabin (300 series), you should for example be able to fly a Civilian A q-drive for max range/speed combination and swap in a Military A drive to go faster, or something else to go farther. Ships like the 400i that have out of the way room on the floor right in front of the component bays are going to see a huge boost in utility. Having replacement components on hand is going to become common to many ships.
I can see the Drake owners already, strewing the narrow gangways with all sorts of stuff and wondering why it takes crew so long to get to battle stations.
I can see the Drake owners already, strewing the narrow gangways with all sorts of stuff and wondering why it takes crew so long to get to battle stations.
there will always be choke points along the trade routes
and there will always be gankers lurking there
gankers can be disincentivised by game mechanics
it will be interesting to see what the devs do about this
in Eve Online, where play style is governed system by system,
80% of players never leave safe space
if Star Citizen is to succeed, the PVEers' needs will need to be met somehow
KuruptU4Fun
Vice Admiral
I've never played Eve so is there a response force (pirates/security) that will respond that is NPC based?
Gankers/ griefers are going to realize pretty quickly that their efforts to disrupt other players lives in game isn't going to come easy if the system is primarily stocked with NPC's, thus statistical probability of them being successful in their efforts on a regular basis is going to be improbable. Pirates will attack both in order to maximize profits.
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