Warhammer 40,000
- Thread starter Shadow Reaper
- Start date
The universe is a horrific, unuust and full of evil. I really hope this isn't a hero story but something that reflects that everyone and every being in the universe is a monster by another form.
Duckforceone
Space Marshal
That has always been what puts me off the franchise. It’s truly bloodthirsty and there are no good guys. I know it has a huge fan base but I still think FASA, Battletech, Mechwarrior is a better franchise for feature films.
That trailer is a cut of a bunch of other work in the 40K universe with some poorly generated AI shots of Henry Cavil.
There is a series in the works, as far as I know there isn't a trailer out yet though.
There is a series in the works, as far as I know there isn't a trailer out yet though.
Mechwarrior/BattleTech is also a bunch of bad guys beating up on other bad guys.
Let's face it, most of the original TT games were designed in such a way that none of the factions were "the good guys" The reason for it was because if there were one or two that were "good guys" everyone would want to play that faction.
Now, I have not kept up with the lore since FASA pretty much folded in 2001, but while there were some good individuals in each of the houses, most of the leaders were out for the main chance for themselves.
I still prefer the "classic" game and even the technical readouts that expanded the game or changed it with the new clan tech, but I never got into AeroTech or the warships part of the game.
All that said, without a "good guy" or at least, resistance to the "bad guy" it's really hard to make movies. You need to have someone to root for, and someone to root against.
As for Warhammer 40k. I FULLY admit that pretty much every faction has blood on their hands. BUT, it could be argued....along with giving your debate opponent a large amount of potent drink beforehand so that you would win...that the Emperor is the "good guy" and that the loyal legions are trying to help humanity. (for the most part). Even to the point of sacrificing the psykers to keep the Emperor's will "alive" could be seen as a "necessary evil" to stay the powers of the gods of chaos.
Yes, some of the other factions can be argued the same way. It's even possible to say that the Orks are not bad...they just are following that nature of the genetics that were built into them.
It's very possible to create a movie or show where the human factions...or even the factions of Eldar, or Ork, could be portrayed as the "good guys" It's certainly possible for the Ultramarines or Frostwolves to be seen that way. All you have to do is compare them to Chaos Marines or Necrons and you can have a good movie.
All that said, I think 40k would be a better IP for movies/shows as you have flawed 'heroes" but you have much worse in the way of villains...depending on your point of view. This is preferred in modern moviemaking compared to the more simplistic plots of the 70s-2000.
Let's face it, most of the original TT games were designed in such a way that none of the factions were "the good guys" The reason for it was because if there were one or two that were "good guys" everyone would want to play that faction.
Now, I have not kept up with the lore since FASA pretty much folded in 2001, but while there were some good individuals in each of the houses, most of the leaders were out for the main chance for themselves.
I still prefer the "classic" game and even the technical readouts that expanded the game or changed it with the new clan tech, but I never got into AeroTech or the warships part of the game.
All that said, without a "good guy" or at least, resistance to the "bad guy" it's really hard to make movies. You need to have someone to root for, and someone to root against.
As for Warhammer 40k. I FULLY admit that pretty much every faction has blood on their hands. BUT, it could be argued....along with giving your debate opponent a large amount of potent drink beforehand so that you would win...that the Emperor is the "good guy" and that the loyal legions are trying to help humanity. (for the most part). Even to the point of sacrificing the psykers to keep the Emperor's will "alive" could be seen as a "necessary evil" to stay the powers of the gods of chaos.
Yes, some of the other factions can be argued the same way. It's even possible to say that the Orks are not bad...they just are following that nature of the genetics that were built into them.
It's very possible to create a movie or show where the human factions...or even the factions of Eldar, or Ork, could be portrayed as the "good guys" It's certainly possible for the Ultramarines or Frostwolves to be seen that way. All you have to do is compare them to Chaos Marines or Necrons and you can have a good movie.
All that said, I think 40k would be a better IP for movies/shows as you have flawed 'heroes" but you have much worse in the way of villains...depending on your point of view. This is preferred in modern moviemaking compared to the more simplistic plots of the 70s-2000.
I used to agree with this above and for the most part I still do, but for the central thesis, that we need good guys to root for, I think that time is long gone. Ever since the close of Hollywood’s golden age in the 50’s we’ve had Tarantino types looking down their noses at any story where good and evil are easily discernible. All my life I’ve been told that shades of grey make entertainment, that blending and mixing them is sophisticated and a lot of other bullshit and blather. Sophocles made sophisticated hero’s without making them evil. It’s not hard.
I used to think the protagonist needed to be a genuinely positive figure, until I didn’t. Now we have all manner of wretched “heroes “. Nowhere is this more obvious than with serials where you come back and cheer for twisted heroes each week. Look at how utterly lame Star Trek Discovery became. Worse still, entire teams of evil doers are passed off as heroes, when they’re not. So in campaign 2 Marisha’s character pours acid down the throat of a sleeping guard for laughs, and in campaign 3, the squad at Critical Role murders an entire church community thinking they might have something worth stealing.
Society is way, way past needing and routing for good guys. They’re becoming rare.
I used to think the protagonist needed to be a genuinely positive figure, until I didn’t. Now we have all manner of wretched “heroes “. Nowhere is this more obvious than with serials where you come back and cheer for twisted heroes each week. Look at how utterly lame Star Trek Discovery became. Worse still, entire teams of evil doers are passed off as heroes, when they’re not. So in campaign 2 Marisha’s character pours acid down the throat of a sleeping guard for laughs, and in campaign 3, the squad at Critical Role murders an entire church community thinking they might have something worth stealing.
Society is way, way past needing and routing for good guys. They’re becoming rare.
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I am not saying the protagonist needs to be pure as fresh fallen winter snow. After all, Deadpool is certainly not, and yet, Deadpool isn’t entirely bad.
Admiral Piet was not evil. He was a man doing his job. I would love to see a SW series based on Piet. Most people in the empire were not evil either. Storm troopers were not, and neither were most of the imperial Army and Navy. Up until recently, they had been the armed forces of the republic. Now, there were some evil folks leading the government, but most were just idiots who followed the pack. (Jar Jar). .
ST:D season 1 pissed on and pissed off a lot of trek fans. They found better footing in season 2, but most still do not like it. SNW is much better received. Heck, LD was much better received.
Kill bill had that thing you could identify with (revenge) while most would never do it to that extent, many have thought about it, if only briefly. She had a good reason for wanting revenge.
Flaws are very good and they add depth, but you still need something that people can identify with. Without it, it means people won’t connect either it, and it will go down as a flop
Admiral Piet was not evil. He was a man doing his job. I would love to see a SW series based on Piet. Most people in the empire were not evil either. Storm troopers were not, and neither were most of the imperial Army and Navy. Up until recently, they had been the armed forces of the republic. Now, there were some evil folks leading the government, but most were just idiots who followed the pack. (Jar Jar). .
ST:D season 1 pissed on and pissed off a lot of trek fans. They found better footing in season 2, but most still do not like it. SNW is much better received. Heck, LD was much better received.
Kill bill had that thing you could identify with (revenge) while most would never do it to that extent, many have thought about it, if only briefly. She had a good reason for wanting revenge.
Flaws are very good and they add depth, but you still need something that people can identify with. Without it, it means people won’t connect either it, and it will go down as a flop
Oh boo, duped again. I don't have time for fake trailers, thanks for letting me know.
It’s not saying every faction in Warhammer is dedicated to evil, but even the T’au, who are dedicated to “the greater good” sear the flesh from the bones of any people they want to annex unless they join them willingly. On a more complex, philosophical note; the T’au are wholly utilitarian, which means in its contested situations, it will promote evil.
Ethics is complex and I don’t need a franchise to be overwhelmingly penetrative philosophically. I just get the feeling the franchise is based upon conflict to the degree they don’t much like peace.
The Greeks understood war as the normal state of mankind, yet still hoped for peace and offered it as reward to wisdom. I find Warhammer very different from this. It is however at its core a WARgame. So how could it be different?
Well it could be different. House Steiner of the Lydian Commonwealth has the strongest economy but the weakest military, primarily because it is defensive. Steiner fights to protect rather than expand or conquer, which is the typical description of “the good guys”. We don’t start wars. We finish them.
Ethics is complex and I don’t need a franchise to be overwhelmingly penetrative philosophically. I just get the feeling the franchise is based upon conflict to the degree they don’t much like peace.
The Greeks understood war as the normal state of mankind, yet still hoped for peace and offered it as reward to wisdom. I find Warhammer very different from this. It is however at its core a WARgame. So how could it be different?
Well it could be different. House Steiner of the Lydian Commonwealth has the strongest economy but the weakest military, primarily because it is defensive. Steiner fights to protect rather than expand or conquer, which is the typical description of “the good guys”. We don’t start wars. We finish them.
Katrina or Melissa Steiner, yes, Katherine Steiner…not a fan of her. I was a fan of the Lyran commonwealth and federated suns. Also of wolf’s dragoons and even called the whole affiliation of them with star league armies in exile long before the clan series came out, but not of some of the others, or even all of the LC and FS leaders. As I said, shades of gray for all of them.
That said, an argument can be made for most 40k factions to be the good guys except for necrons and the corrupted space marine chapters. Even Orks. As obi-wan said, it all depends on your point of view.
That said, an argument can be made for most 40k factions to be the good guys except for necrons and the corrupted space marine chapters. Even Orks. As obi-wan said, it all depends on your point of view.
It could be that 40k is just scarier. I’m actually mostly a fan of House Davion, but Steiner and Davion both go through grey times. Davion is supposedly modeled after the British-French knightly dynasties, while Steiner is German. When they combine they do some great things but that only lasts a short while. Throughout all of it though, it’s thoroughly human and mostly humane. That’s not true in 40k.
Purely accidentally, my favorite ride was the Black Knight, set up with low armor, fast engines, a single jump jet to turn on a dime, tons of coolers and 14 medium pulse lasers. That combo can one-shot all but the very biggest Mechs and is so fast that so long as you stay in motion, assault Mechs can’t touch you. King Crabs can’t turn fast enough to lock you and the mighty Atlas is dead the moment it comes in range. Black Knights rule.
Purely accidentally, my favorite ride was the Black Knight, set up with low armor, fast engines, a single jump jet to turn on a dime, tons of coolers and 14 medium pulse lasers. That combo can one-shot all but the very biggest Mechs and is so fast that so long as you stay in motion, assault Mechs can’t touch you. King Crabs can’t turn fast enough to lock you and the mighty Atlas is dead the moment it comes in range. Black Knights rule.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Henry Cavil is too small and puny to be a Space Marine.
I'm an old fart. I've been playing 40K since the mid 80's. Before 2nd edition. I don't play as often as I used to, but in all those years I have seen the Smurf Marines on the table 3 times, maybe 4.
They just don't seem popular among those that actually play.
Yet, here they are.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Who knows? Looks like bad AI generated images spliced with preexisting 40k game trailers.
Fan made clickbait style trailers shouldn’t be allowed in these forums but that’s just me. ‘Shrugs’
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
That armor is from something else. It almost looks like Martian Marine (Not the Goliath Armor) from the Expanse.
Yeah AI image generators all have issues. Dall-E 3, Da Vinci, Midjourney, etc. There’s always something not quite right about their images. In this case they got Cavill’s face right but the armor horribly wrong. Well at least he doesn’t have 6 fingers per hand or something!
I can’t stress how I absolutely loathe AI generated images or ‘films’. The whole thing is just one big exercise in plagiarism if you think about it. If there’s no original art floating around the internet, these AI ‘engines’ are useless as there’s nowhere for them to steal from!
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Well let's be fair, Hollywood doesn't produce anything, with very few exceptions, original for decades.