Future Warrior
- Thread starter Shadow Reaper
- Start date
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
My recommendation is to spend a couple of days on the range before buying one.
Remember, the difference between you, as a hunter, sneaking and a grunt sneaking, is the amount of gear grunts have to carry. Reloading at further from the body is easier, due to gear. That even applies to a pump shotgun.
Funny thing, I found a bullpup more difficult to bring up and more difficult to swing onto target. The muscle memory is all wrong.
The problem with the 5.56 armor piercing is it only works to about 100 yards. The standard bullet is 55 grains and the armor piercing with a tungsten rod is over 100. It’s just too light a round.
I believe the problem with the .308 is it requires a larger boldface, so you are carrying a medium action like the M10 that soldiers love to hate, and the much larger casing diameter limits you to 20 round mags.
The 6 Max uses the same, small rifle action and boldface as the 5.56, but with a larger, untapered case. It fits 35 grains bang powder instead of 29, which is a significant step up, and shoots bullets from 90-104 grains. So you have more energy but not so much that you get stiff recoil and heavier rifles and ammo.
The Sig XM-7 and Fury ammo requires a medium bolt face and action, and its larger diameter gives you 20 round mags. Soldiers hate it.
The .308 is a great round, but .24 (6 Max) ballistics are far, far better down range, and they recoil much less.
I believe the problem with the .308 is it requires a larger boldface, so you are carrying a medium action like the M10 that soldiers love to hate, and the much larger casing diameter limits you to 20 round mags.
The 6 Max uses the same, small rifle action and boldface as the 5.56, but with a larger, untapered case. It fits 35 grains bang powder instead of 29, which is a significant step up, and shoots bullets from 90-104 grains. So you have more energy but not so much that you get stiff recoil and heavier rifles and ammo.
The Sig XM-7 and Fury ammo requires a medium bolt face and action, and its larger diameter gives you 20 round mags. Soldiers hate it.
The .308 is a great round, but .24 (6 Max) ballistics are far, far better down range, and they recoil much less.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
The .308 is already in the inventory, is already mass produced and isn't proprietary. The .308 has an effective range of 1000+ M so meets the specification. It also punches through the side armor of light armored vehicles so body armor isn't an issue. It has lots of proven platforms.
Everything I've seen of the SIG say the problems are reliability and recoil. Reliability also doomed the SCAR.
And as a former NCO if I can see you at 1000m that means you can see me. At that range I'm not going to fire, I'm going to make it rain. Time On Target.
I’m taking Richard’s advise and renting a Wolverine before I buy.
If someone could build a .308 that weighs 7 lbs, has manageable recoil (for the average soldier—I used to shoot a .300 Win Mag) and 30 rd mags, I think that is a solution. I think though whatever solution they come up with, they have to reduce the pack weight. Adding body armor to every soldier is where we’re headed and that is nontrivial. Adding 15 lbs to weight already carried is asking a lot. We need to make it up somewhere. BTW, I have backpacked thousands of miles of wilderness with an 80lbs pack over decades. I know all about what is possible. Adding 15 lbs is a very serious issue.
And let me digress a moment to SC.
I’m a proponent of “light builds” in fps combat, meaning keeping your weight below 15 kgs when you drop your pack. This is really hard to do, but it yields 100% movement rate which none of the NPCs can hit and only very few PCs can hit. If you follow Star Marine, ALL of the top players are “dex tanks”, or very high mobility shooters, who normally sprint and fire from the hip. The new Palatino Digital Helmet actually helps you aim from the hip and the Lumin V is the meta for doing this.
In order to go below 15 kgs total carried, you can wear any helmet (they all weigh 2kgs) and a medium torso (they all weigh 5 kgs), and no other armor. If you carry a light SMG like the Lumin, a Multitool as you want in the PU, and 3 grenades, and 6 batteries, you are already overweight. That’s how hard it is to get 100% movement. Sometimes you’ll leave a grenade or battery behind, which is irksome. Sometimes leave your Multitool in your pack, which hinders healing, but if you don’t get hit that doesn’t matter. (BTW, the Multitool gives a tiny fraction of overdose compared to the healing pistol. It’s a much better solution until you assign a medic who heals at range.). Some choose light torso.
We’re pioneering some new techniques. Odd as it may seem, dropping the Lumin for an Arc Light and light arms protection is a viable option. Knife takedowns become much more appealing when you move that fast. People are planning to optimize dex tanks around use of the Vanduul Plasma Lance. All manner of options are presenting themselves.
The point is, light makes might. Speed kills. First to Target with their weapon is much, much more important than Time to Kill, because opponents can’t shoot while they’re being shot. So light weapons on lightly armored PCs, running at 100% and firing from the hip is often the way to go; which means every kg matters.
If someone could build a .308 that weighs 7 lbs, has manageable recoil (for the average soldier—I used to shoot a .300 Win Mag) and 30 rd mags, I think that is a solution. I think though whatever solution they come up with, they have to reduce the pack weight. Adding body armor to every soldier is where we’re headed and that is nontrivial. Adding 15 lbs to weight already carried is asking a lot. We need to make it up somewhere. BTW, I have backpacked thousands of miles of wilderness with an 80lbs pack over decades. I know all about what is possible. Adding 15 lbs is a very serious issue.
And let me digress a moment to SC.
I’m a proponent of “light builds” in fps combat, meaning keeping your weight below 15 kgs when you drop your pack. This is really hard to do, but it yields 100% movement rate which none of the NPCs can hit and only very few PCs can hit. If you follow Star Marine, ALL of the top players are “dex tanks”, or very high mobility shooters, who normally sprint and fire from the hip. The new Palatino Digital Helmet actually helps you aim from the hip and the Lumin V is the meta for doing this.
In order to go below 15 kgs total carried, you can wear any helmet (they all weigh 2kgs) and a medium torso (they all weigh 5 kgs), and no other armor. If you carry a light SMG like the Lumin, a Multitool as you want in the PU, and 3 grenades, and 6 batteries, you are already overweight. That’s how hard it is to get 100% movement. Sometimes you’ll leave a grenade or battery behind, which is irksome. Sometimes leave your Multitool in your pack, which hinders healing, but if you don’t get hit that doesn’t matter. (BTW, the Multitool gives a tiny fraction of overdose compared to the healing pistol. It’s a much better solution until you assign a medic who heals at range.). Some choose light torso.
We’re pioneering some new techniques. Odd as it may seem, dropping the Lumin for an Arc Light and light arms protection is a viable option. Knife takedowns become much more appealing when you move that fast. People are planning to optimize dex tanks around use of the Vanduul Plasma Lance. All manner of options are presenting themselves.
The point is, light makes might. Speed kills. First to Target with their weapon is much, much more important than Time to Kill, because opponents can’t shoot while they’re being shot. So light weapons on lightly armored PCs, running at 100% and firing from the hip is often the way to go; which means every kg matters.
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While we’re talking future warrior tech, there is another cartridge breakthrough that deserves note. The 6 Max is delivering just the necessary power increase to the light rifles with small boltfaces that make the 5.56 and M4 popular. Another future tech notable is the Boombox.
The Boombox is based off the medium bolt face M10, so is in the category of the Army’s current derangement, the Sig XM-7. Unlike the Sig, the Boombox relies upon cutting edge metallurgy and tooling, to build an enhanced replacement for the .300 Blackout cartridge.
.300 Blackout is famous for its ability to fire subsonic projectiles with enough power to consider them lethal out to at least 100 meters. Its high tech replacement is the 8.6 Blackout. The 8.6 (.338 caliber) has roughly 3X the energy of the .300, and fires bullets up to 360 grains. This is a monsterous subsonic bullet that tears horrific wounds out to 3 times the distance of the .300, and to much greater distances when loaded with lighter, supersonic bullets. Why build such a thing?
Well, what the crazy men over at Q, LLC seem to be doing is replacing the 9mm handgun cartridges in modern SMGs with something much, much more powerful, that can provide stopping power sub and supersonic at huge distances the SMGs cannot.
To do this, they are forced to use next gen metallurgy. Standard stuff can’t manage, especially given their mandate to make the carbine extravagantly light for its raw power. That’s the BoomBox.
So that’s cool, and reminds of another advance we may be just half way through—60 round quad stack magazines.
Quad stacks are just what they sound like. The top of the mag is dual stack just like any other modern rifle magazine, but as these catch on we should expect lower receivers to adopt a new mag well and the magazine will be shorter and perhaps even higher capacity.
And while we’re guessing about future design, consider this: given various types of ammo for any specific rifle—standard and armor piercing, sub and supersonic—just how long will quad stacks go before they offer a selector that allows a soldier to choose between two types of ammo? Seems an obvious evolution of the quad stack design.
KelTec has actually done this in part. It’s slide action, tubular fed, bullpup shotgun allows selection between the 2 tube mags, so you can select 00 or slug, etc.
It sounds to me the guys at Desert Tech have already figured this out and are working at bringing it to market, so we may see selectable quad stack mags in 6 Max in future Sabertooth lower receivers.
The Boombox is based off the medium bolt face M10, so is in the category of the Army’s current derangement, the Sig XM-7. Unlike the Sig, the Boombox relies upon cutting edge metallurgy and tooling, to build an enhanced replacement for the .300 Blackout cartridge.
.300 Blackout is famous for its ability to fire subsonic projectiles with enough power to consider them lethal out to at least 100 meters. Its high tech replacement is the 8.6 Blackout. The 8.6 (.338 caliber) has roughly 3X the energy of the .300, and fires bullets up to 360 grains. This is a monsterous subsonic bullet that tears horrific wounds out to 3 times the distance of the .300, and to much greater distances when loaded with lighter, supersonic bullets. Why build such a thing?
Well, what the crazy men over at Q, LLC seem to be doing is replacing the 9mm handgun cartridges in modern SMGs with something much, much more powerful, that can provide stopping power sub and supersonic at huge distances the SMGs cannot.
To do this, they are forced to use next gen metallurgy. Standard stuff can’t manage, especially given their mandate to make the carbine extravagantly light for its raw power. That’s the BoomBox.
So that’s cool, and reminds of another advance we may be just half way through—60 round quad stack magazines.
Quad stacks are just what they sound like. The top of the mag is dual stack just like any other modern rifle magazine, but as these catch on we should expect lower receivers to adopt a new mag well and the magazine will be shorter and perhaps even higher capacity.
And while we’re guessing about future design, consider this: given various types of ammo for any specific rifle—standard and armor piercing, sub and supersonic—just how long will quad stacks go before they offer a selector that allows a soldier to choose between two types of ammo? Seems an obvious evolution of the quad stack design.
KelTec has actually done this in part. It’s slide action, tubular fed, bullpup shotgun allows selection between the 2 tube mags, so you can select 00 or slug, etc.
It sounds to me the guys at Desert Tech have already figured this out and are working at bringing it to market, so we may see selectable quad stack mags in 6 Max in future Sabertooth lower receivers.
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Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Just a quick illustration.
This is the load bearing equipment I wore when I first went in.
Notice even with most of what you are carrying concentrated at the belt line the pack straps, the straps on this, and the flashlight can interfere with the reloading motion close to the body. Note the medical pouch is upside down in this image.(And a combat knife or bayonet was also usually carried on the upper strap.)
Adding body armor puts more volume around the chest, and the newer gear carries more things higher.
Now when you are reloading under fire, you are in a hurry. When the reload port is in front of the trigger there is no gear in the way. When you are reloading close to the body, like with all bullpups other than the G11, the gear gets in the way. (The G-11 reload has other issues.)
This is the load bearing equipment I wore when I first went in.
Notice even with most of what you are carrying concentrated at the belt line the pack straps, the straps on this, and the flashlight can interfere with the reloading motion close to the body. Note the medical pouch is upside down in this image.(And a combat knife or bayonet was also usually carried on the upper strap.)
Adding body armor puts more volume around the chest, and the newer gear carries more things higher.
Now when you are reloading under fire, you are in a hurry. When the reload port is in front of the trigger there is no gear in the way. When you are reloading close to the body, like with all bullpups other than the G11, the gear gets in the way. (The G-11 reload has other issues.)
Granted, it’s complicated. I think though, that flashlight deserves a reboot. That’s very 60’s.
I’m all for a complete overhaul of the rig just to address the issues you raise. One of the reasons I recommended the vid atop here is it focuses on ergonomics but it did not include this rig! So adjustments are in order.
Rig aside, the competition shooter who did the evaluation noted Wolverine reloads are smoother and faster because the forward weight of the M4 and XM-7 has the rifleman remove it from the shoulder and tuck the stock under their armpit to hold it. That’s a key issue but considering it in isolation from your rig is a mistake.
I think there needs to be a lot of adjustments I could only guess at, but my one guess is move the light to underbarrel. That Vietnam era flashlight absolutely weighs too much and takes up too much volume, IMHO.
I think I had one of those flashlights about 1968. Seriously, we can do better.
In my teens I did about a year stint with ultralight backpacking. It’s mostly silly stuff, cutting your toothbrush in half, carrying a “spork” instead of fork and spoon, shaving every bit of weight off you can to try to get your pack down to 25-30lbs for a 3-5 day trip. Guys who hike the entire Appalachian Trail in one season do this. They wear sneakers, race 35 miles each day and dump beans in water at night to eat sprouts for breakfast. I do not recommend any of this. I like luxuries such as cigars and a nice hammock.
On the other end of the spectrum, I have vivid memories of a scene in Blackhawk Down, of Army Rangers removing their plates from their carriers before action, and getting shot in the chest later.
So I’m just owning, fit out, loadout, whatever you want to call it; is complex and important. First of all though, our guys deserve good but light flashlights.
I am curious what you think about glass filled plastic knives. They weigh next to nothing. Delta uses them. Seems they would save a full lb of weight, but I’ve never used one. I can’t imagine they’re very sharp, but if your real plan is to poke with them, maybe that doesn’t matter.
I’m all for a complete overhaul of the rig just to address the issues you raise. One of the reasons I recommended the vid atop here is it focuses on ergonomics but it did not include this rig! So adjustments are in order.
Rig aside, the competition shooter who did the evaluation noted Wolverine reloads are smoother and faster because the forward weight of the M4 and XM-7 has the rifleman remove it from the shoulder and tuck the stock under their armpit to hold it. That’s a key issue but considering it in isolation from your rig is a mistake.
I think there needs to be a lot of adjustments I could only guess at, but my one guess is move the light to underbarrel. That Vietnam era flashlight absolutely weighs too much and takes up too much volume, IMHO.
I think I had one of those flashlights about 1968. Seriously, we can do better.
In my teens I did about a year stint with ultralight backpacking. It’s mostly silly stuff, cutting your toothbrush in half, carrying a “spork” instead of fork and spoon, shaving every bit of weight off you can to try to get your pack down to 25-30lbs for a 3-5 day trip. Guys who hike the entire Appalachian Trail in one season do this. They wear sneakers, race 35 miles each day and dump beans in water at night to eat sprouts for breakfast. I do not recommend any of this. I like luxuries such as cigars and a nice hammock.
On the other end of the spectrum, I have vivid memories of a scene in Blackhawk Down, of Army Rangers removing their plates from their carriers before action, and getting shot in the chest later.
So I’m just owning, fit out, loadout, whatever you want to call it; is complex and important. First of all though, our guys deserve good but light flashlights.
I am curious what you think about glass filled plastic knives. They weigh next to nothing. Delta uses them. Seems they would save a full lb of weight, but I’ve never used one. I can’t imagine they’re very sharp, but if your real plan is to poke with them, maybe that doesn’t matter.
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Richard Bong
Space Marshal
I heard his reasons, with full combat load, I can't agree. Too much stuff you, basically, have to carry, gets in the way of that reload, and that presumes you aren't also carrying a spare barrel for the machinegun, an AT4, a stiletto (drone, not blade), or similar extra gear. And remember body armor pushes that gear out from your body.
The gear has been redesigned 3 times (at least) since my first set. The redesigns are so that you can carry more ammo and it is easier to carry, so more gear is carried higher (it balances better, especially with the pack. The gear is more in the way now than it was then.
I haven't seen those flashlights in any images in a while, but they were light weight (the heavy part was the 2 D-Cells), had a choice of clear, red or blue lenses, and the angle meant you could hang the light on your gear and use two hands. You could also stand it on the ground to point it at what you were working on. When using the red or blue lenses they wouldn't screw up your (natural) night vision. It worked.
Ceramic knives would likely be a better choice than plastic, they hold an edge better than even steel. Plastic knives have been around a while, you can make them sharp, but they don't hold an edge well.
Note the Army's Bayonet is more a wire cutter than a knife.
Me? Personally? A knife is a tool. It is for more than just killing someone. My blade of choice has always been a Ka-Bar. (Though my sheath is the classic leather one).
It saws branches (and bone if necessary) can double as a hammer, with flint can start a fire, etc. Going to a plastic or ceramic and you lose the utility you get with a Ka-Bar. And, unlike plastic or ceramic, if you hit a bone wrong while you are killing someone, steel won't shatter.
I would just note from the standpoint of a backpacker, if your rig is only going to hold what you have above, a lumbar pack is far superior. It doesn’t rely upon load bearing through the torso, so it fatigues far less. Backpackers all know that with any weight, you try to distribute weight directly on the hips with only enough weight on the shoulders to keep the pack in place. Shoulder straps suspending 20 lbs or so are unnecessary. Lumbar packs make the wearer much faster when running, and fatigue far less. Modern lumbar packs wrap around the hips just like this and the pack can be twisted so the back is in front for easy access, then twisted again so you can move easily. They’re vastly superior to this rig above.
So too with modern clip on LED lights. If you have a good light on your rifle, you can manage other tasks with a 1/4 oz cap clip on. These go back 30 years now. D cells weigh way too much, IMHO.
Some things are never going to be lighter. Water weighs what it weighs. However, if you make a dozen good trades like a better light, then maybe you can add body armor and not slow the soldier too much.
So too with modern clip on LED lights. If you have a good light on your rifle, you can manage other tasks with a 1/4 oz cap clip on. These go back 30 years now. D cells weigh way too much, IMHO.
Some things are never going to be lighter. Water weighs what it weighs. However, if you make a dozen good trades like a better light, then maybe you can add body armor and not slow the soldier too much.
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Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Things are carried on the front for fast access. for example the med pouch is carried to open down, not like on the image, where it opens up, because seconds matter. Ammo, grenades, first air, knives, etc. are things you need now, so are carried on the front. On newer kits, three mags are generally carried individually, instead of the pouches where there are three mags per pouch. All to make things faster.
If you are in a firefight, which is faster, swinging around that fanny pack and getting a mag, or pulling it out of the pouch on your waist or chest?
Remember, while you are reloading your buddy is burning ammo.
I get your point, but I don’t think we can address specifics without all of them to discuss. Certainly, any carry system needs the quick access you’re talking about but that doesn’t mean it has to interfere with the bullpup magwell. Also, 60 round mags removes half the reloads so there’s that.
All of this will need to be adjusted when armor is a thing. Maybe the armor itself will have its own light, first aid, even mag access. I have never seen designs for the armor itself, but it makes sense for it to carry everything you need all the time and your Pack to carry everything else.
All of this will need to be adjusted when armor is a thing. Maybe the armor itself will have its own light, first aid, even mag access. I have never seen designs for the armor itself, but it makes sense for it to carry everything you need all the time and your Pack to carry everything else.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
This is, AFAIK, the current chest body armor. (There are other, additional, pieces.) The slots in it are so you can hang standard accessory clips (from the old LBE, I showed first) on it where you want them. So are the bands at the bottom of the shoulder straps. This is definitely newer than the last set I had. So you can add old ammo pouches, new ammo pouches, the old flashlight, knife, bayonet, E-Tool, canteens, SAW ammo belts, etc.
I'm not sure how the laser tag receptors work with this. :) But they are replacing that, soontm.
I'm not sure how the laser tag receptors work with this. :) But they are replacing that, soontm.