Exploration Official Exploration Council

NKato · Sep 29, 2015

Salt Lake said:
I'm not going to enforce my views on how TEST will be structured, that is up to Montoya and his Command Support Staff (CSS) to figure out. Him and his CSS are perfectly capable of making their own decision and i entrust him with that. I approached Montoya about a exploration group, he said a council would be better as there are many groups that use explorations, such as Rock Raiders. They require exploration but their own special type of exploration. A council simply makes sense for this unique situation, lets not try to apply it to every career choice.

Now if people don't mind, I am going to have a mod clean up this thread about TEST structuring, and I have changed the word organization with TEST groups for clarity. Lets keep this thread in focus people.

Yup, yup. :p But don't delete that last one I posted! I just linked it to Montoya so he can review it.

That aside, what do you think of my thoughts on what Infinity Squad would be like?

Space Monkey · Sep 29, 2015

Salt Lake said:
I'm not going to enforce my views on how TEST will be structured, that is up to Montoya and his Command Support Staff (CSS) to figure out. Him and his CSS are perfectly capable of making their own decision and i entrust him with that. I approached Montoya about a exploration group, he said a council would be better as there are many groups that use explorations, such as Rock Raiders. They require exploration but their own special type of exploration. A council simply makes sense for this unique situation, lets not try to apply it to every career choice.

Now if people don't mind, I am going to have a mod clean up this thread about TEST structuring, and I have changed the word organization with TEST groups for clarity. Lets keep this thread in focus people.

Yeah, definitely no forcing meant here either just adding some thoughts. In Montoya we trust.

Adiran · Sep 29, 2015

The thing is in order for this to work you need every group within Test to report to your council on matters of exploration. If a council is what Test wants to do for this why not have a council for mining, pvp, ect. Why have the individual groups within test at all?

The thing is certain niche jobs like exploration overlap completely with all facets of the game. If we have a mining group they need explorers to find the best minerals. If we have science players they need explorers to find the best sites, same with salvagers and those who want to just go out and fight pve. They provide intel for pvp and are essential for Test to grow and run smoothly and yes lets say it, make money as a organization to provide the content for the players it wants to. So having more than one official group within Test but then having a council to oversee parts of every official group just sounds to me like making a governing body to govern over groups within another governed body.

Basically you are adding more people to leadership positions that are not needed. Yes I do not intend to find asteroid fields all day with the rock raiders. But being a explorer I am not going to be a large part of them. If anything I will be a entrepreneur of sorts within test. A ship for hire to find what is needed. So if we have this council to govern all of them why have the other groups harbor a exploration wing within them?

For example the Rock Raiders. They are miners. They mine asteroids. They currently have divisions like exploration and defense. Why not have them drop those divisions and have them petition this council for information on mining spots. The council (having already found several spots from petitioning members to do just that) provide them with several spots to mine for that day. This goes the same for the defense division. Instead of having players join them and not the pvp or pve combat groups, they simply petition them for protection that day. Or volunteers show up to protect them.

The biggest issue I see with doing what Test is doing is how difficult it is to allow members within Test to make their own groups within test to do various things and keeping a lid on them all without having 1 council govern everything instead of 10 groups governing themselves. It adds way to many links in the chain of communication and command to effectively work. If Test was a alliance of organizations (witch we basically become having so many groups within ourselves) there would be a alliance council to govern the alliance would there not? Even if its just 1 seat per person and then the main body of Test leadership all sitting on it, each vote is different based on what they represent and then they can effectively control what Test is doing instead of the cluster fuck that it would be otherwise.

Don't get me wrong tho, if cluster fuck is what you want so be it. But even Test in eve, being the drunk bastards they are have more streamlined organization that allows them to run with the big boys of eve. Even goons with all their bully glory have maybe 10 people that are in charge that make decisions for the entire alliance of several thousand. They have divisions certain people are in charge of, and they subsequently have their subordinates to actually make it run but at the end of the day they don't have groups within it that have fancy titles and such. If you mine you report to this guy and his subordinates, if you explore you go to this guy, so on and so forth. The groups form themselves in the end. But then you don't have things like this that add more people to be in charge of more things than we need creating more cluster fucks than we need. When it goes threw 10 people to get to a council that then has 10 people before it gets to me that is 20 people the message must pass threw to get to me before the area gets scouted. When it can go from the mining council member to the exploration council member then threw maybe 1 or 2 others before getting to me. You can see how much faster that word gets passed. It also prevents people getting certain identities in Test. "Well i'm a rock raider I don't have to come and defend another system from attack because I mine." instead of them saying "I am a Testis. I must help my fellow Testis and defend our space." or "My mission i am running can wait, my testis need me!" instead of "well i am not a rock raider so i don,t want to go protect a bunch of miners."

I am not saying its all that terrible or that it will not work. I am simply saying I see a lot of problems that could (not necessarily would) happen with it.

NKato · Sep 29, 2015

Adiran said:
The thing is in order for this to work you need every group within Test to report to your council on matters of exploration. If a council is what Test wants to do for this why not have a council for mining, pvp, ect. Why have the individual groups within test at all?

The thing is certain niche jobs like exploration overlap completely with all facets of the game. If we have a mining group they need explorers to find the best minerals. If we have science players they need explorers to find the best sites, same with salvagers and those who want to just go out and fight pve. They provide intel for pvp and are essential for Test to grow and run smoothly and yes lets say it, make money as a organization to provide the content for the players it wants to. So having more than one official group within Test but then having a council to oversee parts of every official group just sounds to me like making a governing body to govern over groups within another governed body.

Basically you are adding more people to leadership positions that are not needed. Yes I do not intend to find asteroid fields all day with the rock raiders. But being a explorer I am not going to be a large part of them. If anything I will be a entrepreneur of sorts within test. A ship for hire to find what is needed. So if we have this council to govern all of them why have the other groups harbor a exploration wing within them?

For example the Rock Raiders. They are miners. They mine asteroids. They currently have divisions like exploration and defense. Why not have them drop those divisions and have them petition this council for information on mining spots. The council (having already found several spots from petitioning members to do just that) provide them with several spots to mine for that day. This goes the same for the defense division. Instead of having players join them and not the pvp or pve combat groups, they simply petition them for protection that day. Or volunteers show up to protect them.

The biggest issue I see with doing what Test is doing is how difficult it is to allow members within Test to make their own groups within test to do various things and keeping a lid on them all without having 1 council govern everything instead of 10 groups governing themselves. It adds way to many links in the chain of communication and command to effectively work. If Test was a alliance of organizations (witch we basically become having so many groups within ourselves) there would be a alliance council to govern the alliance would there not? Even if its just 1 seat per person and then the main body of Test leadership all sitting on it, each vote is different based on what they represent and then they can effectively control what Test is doing instead of the cluster fuck that it would be otherwise.

Don't get me wrong tho, if cluster fuck is what you want so be it. But even Test in eve, being the drunk bastards they are have more streamlined organization that allows them to run with the big boys of eve. Even goons with all their bully glory have maybe 10 people that are in charge that make decisions for the entire alliance of several thousand. They have divisions certain people are in charge of, and they subsequently have their subordinates to actually make it run but at the end of the day they don't have groups within it that have fancy titles and such. If you mine you report to this guy and his subordinates, if you explore you go to this guy, so on and so forth. The groups form themselves in the end. But then you don't have things like this that add more people to be in charge of more things than we need creating more cluster fucks than we need. When it goes threw 10 people to get to a council that then has 10 people before it gets to me that is 20 people the message must pass threw to get to me before the area gets scouted. When it can go from the mining council member to the exploration council member then threw maybe 1 or 2 others before getting to me. You can see how much faster that word gets passed. It also prevents people getting certain identities in Test. "Well i'm a rock raider I don't have to come and defend another system from attack because I mine." instead of them saying "I am a Testis. I must help my fellow Testis and defend our space." or "My mission i am running can wait, my testis need me!" instead of "well i am not a rock raider so i don,t want to go protect a bunch of miners."

I am not saying its all that terrible or that it will not work. I am simply saying I see a lot of problems that could (not necessarily would) happen with it.

There isn't really a need to "add" more to leadership positions when you consider that we have the following:

DSET - 1 leader
TESTploration - 1 leader
Infinity Squad - 1 leader

If we sent three explorers to scan down the same place in space, and they were all from different groups, that turns into a waste of time, and a question of who gets the first credit, and who loses out on the contract pay. This can create animosity within TEST, which we are very keen to avoid.

Hence, the Exploration Council. The idea of this council for exploration is to help coordinate and prevent mission overlap and the production of excessive redundant data. It also helps coordinate larger strategic missions such as a focused exploration mission for a targeted system: Say we need a massive scan-down of the Osiris System from top to bottom, from end to end. All three groups can work together via the council to coordinate the most efficient method to accomplish the objective.

In this format, members can still form their own squads and groups, provided that they declare a primary field discipline to enable TEST leadership to properly slot those groups under a given division.

Adiran · Sep 29, 2015

Yes but like i said above why have 3 groups when they can all be 1 group under 3 people? To my military mind it makes more sense i guess. The council will do what you want it to but it prevents overlap that will still happen from 3 different groups. With a council overseeing 3 groups each one will want to work autonomously following its own leader on what it wants to do. The council in my mind would be playing babysitter telling each group to behave and share.

I follow Test leadership wherever it goes. Whatever it decides to do. In my mind tho you are allowing 3-4 groups autonomy but trying to govern them at the same time. I guess in a way you are creating a body of leaders between our fearless leader and them but they need to understand that they as a group is merely a division of the overall exploration wing of Test. So DSET is the wormhole, jump point, and new territory explorers. Infinity Squad (going off what i know of them) will be your pvp scouts, worried about enemy fleet movements and gathering intel on targets. Then Rock Raiders exploration wing is strictly focused on resource exploration. TESTploration can be everything ells we might need.

Just having them autonomous makes them overlap a lot. Even if they are "organized" by a council keeping them their own thing means each one will want to flourish and overlap as much as they can. I doubt anyone in any of the groups will want to focus solely on one type of exploration. They are at their heart people who don't settle down to one thing. That is why they choose to be explorers.

I guess if each group knows they are not their own thing and they are specialized and fill the role of a niche within a niche (this includes their leadership knowing they are not the boss the council is) then you did what i believe would work you just worded it all bassackwards to confuse me and make me think you meant something ells.

NKato · Sep 29, 2015

Salt Lake said:
Then your military mind should know how SOF works. I was part of the 33d rescue, but there was a 31st rescue also there, we both reported to the 18th wing for cross communication between the two groups. We were doing the same mission but to improve our efficiency we must cross communicate. the 18th wing allows for that formal communication. If both the 33d and 31st were patrolling the same sea area, how much time would be wasted?

This guy has the right idea.

Adiran · Sep 29, 2015

Salt Lake said:
Then your military mind should know how SOF works. I was part of the 33d rescue, but there was a 31st rescue also there, we both reported to the 18th wing for cross communication between the two groups. We were doing the same mission but to improve our efficiency we must cross communicate. the 18th wing allows for that formal communication. If both the 33d and 31st were patrolling the same sea area, how much time would be wasted?

Then in that case it is a chain of command, and to say its not is telling a fib. The way i am reading the posts its like you want to create a communication chain between everyone, not creating a chain of command to control them. But using this council to tell each group where to go and what to do so there is no overlap is creating a chain of command for them. A communication chain in my mind doesn't need a official post on how its a council for communication between squads. Just get the leaders to sit down at a meeting to discuss what each group is going to be doing.

I get exactly what you are saying. Each squad is its own thing within the larger military, under its own leadership. But that leadership has its own leaders who coordinate with the other squads on what each one should do (council). That is how the chain of command works. So if it is just that a council to tell them you go here and they go there, then it is a command structure to control the squads choosing to focus on exploration. And it should clearly be stated as such.

I guess I can see if it is like you are saying a communication chain to link the organizations together and is only seated by the leaders of the squads, then this is a "shout out" to the leaders of other squads to get them to join. In witch case I think it should be posted in a officer forum more than a general population forum.

Just my 2 cents.

mromutt · Sep 29, 2015

Adiran said:
Yes but like i said above why have 3 groups when they can all be 1 group under 3 people? To my military mind it makes more sense i guess. The council will do what you want it to but it prevents overlap that will still happen from 3 different groups. With a council overseeing 3 groups each one will want to work autonomously following its own leader on what it wants to do. The council in my mind would be playing babysitter telling each group to behave and share.

I follow Test leadership wherever it goes. Whatever it decides to do. In my mind tho you are allowing 3-4 groups autonomy but trying to govern them at the same time. I guess in a way you are creating a body of leaders between our fearless leader and them but they need to understand that they as a group is merely a division of the overall exploration wing of Test. So DSET is the wormhole, jump point, and new territory explorers. Infinity Squad (going off what i know of them) will be your pvp scouts, worried about enemy fleet movements and gathering intel on targets. Then Rock Raiders exploration wing is strictly focused on resource exploration. TESTploration can be everything ells we might need.

Just having them autonomous makes them overlap a lot. Even if they are "organized" by a council keeping them their own thing means each one will want to flourish and overlap as much as they can. I doubt anyone in any of the groups will want to focus solely on one type of exploration. They are at their heart people who don't settle down to one thing. That is why they choose to be explorers.

I guess if each group knows they are not their own thing and they are specialized and fill the role of a niche within a niche (this includes their leadership knowing they are not the boss the council is) then you did what i believe would work you just worded it all bassackwards to confuse me and make me think you meant something ells.

I believe the purpose of the council is not to tell groups what to do or even what not to do, but rather allow us all have a place to communicate and see what people are looking for. So when say Blacksunder posts saying "hey guys I am looking for a large amount of x resources to mine" we can say " yeah I know a place I found" or "I will keep my eye out for that". I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong view, this is not to control us or dictate how to explore but rather acknowledge each groups existences.

Space Monkey · Sep 29, 2015

Adiran said:
Then in that case it is a chain of command, and to say its not is telling a fib. The way i am reading the posts its like you want to create a communication chain between everyone, not creating a chain of command to control them. But using this council to tell each group where to go and what to do so there is no overlap is creating a chain of command for them. A communication chain in my mind doesn't need a official post on how its a council for communication between squads. Just get the leaders to sit down at a meeting to discuss what each group is going to be doing.

I get exactly what you are saying. Each squad is its own thing within the larger military, under its own leadership. But that leadership has its own leaders who coordinate with the other squads on what each one should do. That is how the chain of command works. So if it is just that a council to tell them you go here and they go there, then it is a command structure to control the squads choosing to focus on exploration. And it should clearly be stated as such.

I guess I can see if it is like you are saying a communication chain to link the organizations together and is only seated by the leaders of the squads, then this is a "shout out" to the leaders of other squads to get them to join. In witch case I think it should be posted in a officer forum more than a general population forum.

Just my 2 cents.

I think at this point the council seems like a fact-finding group setup to figure out how to organize a specific branch, in this case Exploration. This may or may not give us an idea of how we can organize further as an organization. No roles or duties or chain of command have been implemented yet. Since this is fairly new, it will be some time before everything gets sorted out and we can actually see specifics.

Adiran · Sep 29, 2015

So this is a over glorified way of saying the leaders of each group want to talk to each other and will do so regularly. Meetings between leaders will take place but they remain separate. Each one takes on the responsibility of the different needs of Test and since all will be in attendance another group doesn't try to do the same thing.

aka, Head-shed meeting to figure out the plan of the day, mixed with a group chat between just the leaders with time stamps so each group knows what the other is doing.

I don't see why this needed a "official" title and a large forum post. PM's and officer forums would be a better medium for it.

Not trying to be an ass but sitting here reading what I typed its going to come across as me being an ass. Just trying to say there is better ways of doing things that require a lot less typing.

Space Monkey said:
I think at this point the council seems like a fact-finding group setup to figure out how to organize a specific branch, in this case Exploration. This may or may not give us an idea of how we can organize further as an organization. No roles or duties or chain of command have been implemented yet. Since this is fairly new, it will be some time before everything gets sorted out and we can actually see specifics.

I agree completely with what you are doing here now that I understand exactly what it is you are doing here. Me being me I fail to see the reason in announcing leadership business (and that is what it is) for everyone to see. Especially when the wrinkles are not ironed out yet.

NKato · Sep 29, 2015

Adiran said:
So this is a over glorified way of saying the leaders of each group want to talk to each other and will do so regularly. Meetings between leaders will take place but they remain separate. Each one takes on the responsibility of the different needs of Test and since all will be in attendance another group doesn't try to do the same thing.

aka, Head-shed meeting to figure out the plan of the day, mixed with a group chat between just the leaders with time stamps so each group knows what the other is doing.

I don't see why this needed a "official" title and a large forum post. PM's and officer forums would be a better medium for it.

Not trying to be an ass but sitting here reading what I typed its going to come across as me being an ass. Just trying to say there is better ways of doing things that require a lot less typing.

I agree completely with what you are doing here now that I understand exactly what it is you are doing here. Me being me I fail to see the reason in announcing leadership business (and that is what it is) for everyone to see. Especially when the wrinkles are not ironed out yet.

Because Montoya wants us to test the concept out now that a baby-PU is coming. We're essentially a test-case for future structuring within the organization.

Rock · Sep 29, 2015

The Consortium led by evil twins Rock and Zull will be joining the Council as a sitting and voting voices on the Council. We have not formalized a name for our corporation yet, but will duly inform the Council of our decision when said decision is made. We shall reserve the right to end any and all relationships with the council at anytime and for any reason, and also reserve the right to refuse to follow any and all behavioraly inhibative conduct preventatives, be they created, implemented, resolved, seconded, forwarded, submitted, voted for, passed, carried, and etc...ad naseum. We look forward to a profitable relationship with the council, and look forward to the information and experience the council will pass on. We look forward to the initiation procedures which will be developed for those new members whom will eventually be invited to the council, and standardization of hazing aboard all Exploration ships, as well as the enforcement of minimum sentencing guidlines for shipboard crimes.

We are currently looking for aspiring consortium members who share our desires of exploring the new universe and wrenching what secrets and fortunes we can from her exposed and vulnerable underbelly. Perhaps we shall be called the Dragon Slayers, or perhaps not. Our Corps is actively recruiting for various roles.
Positions that we might cram you into:
Doggy Style
Barking Duck
Chinese Finger Cuffs
Barrel

Shipboard Positions - See Rock or Zull for interview
We will be looking to staff
1 Carrack -
1 Retaliator -
1 Freelancer MIS
1 Starfarer

Please apply at

Warm Regards,

Rock & Zull & our Janitorial Staff

mromutt · Sep 29, 2015

Adiran said:
So this is a over glorified way of saying the leaders of each group want to talk to each other and will do so regularly. Meetings between leaders will take place but they remain separate. Each one takes on the responsibility of the different needs of Test and since all will be in attendance another group doesn't try to do the same thing.

aka, Head-shed meeting to figure out the plan of the day, mixed with a group chat between just the leaders with time stamps so each group knows what the other is doing.

I don't see why this needed a "official" title and a large forum post. PM's and officer forums would be a better medium for it.

Not trying to be an ass but sitting here reading what I typed its going to come across as me being an ass. Just trying to say there is better ways of doing things that require a lot less typing.

I agree completely with what you are doing here now that I understand exactly what it is you are doing here. Me being me I fail to see the reason in announcing leadership business (and that is what it is) for everyone to see. Especially when the wrinkles are not ironed out yet.

The reason we have a council not one big sub division is so all exploration groups can be offical groups and operate how they want. But at the same time still be communicating not competing. But the reason for an offical post is to let everyone know what is going on and so other groups can say they would like to join the council as well.

Montoya · Sep 30, 2015

mromutt said:
The reason we have a council not one big sub division is so all exploration groups can be offical groups and operate how they want.

Im going to have to object to the term "official group" here.

Lets say 10,000 members in TEST by the time the game starts, we end up with 1800 different exploration groups.

That is going to be one giant shit show.

If you and 5 friends jump into a Carrack, you do not automatically become an official group. You are just in an exploration ship with some friends, that is all. You can jump into comms, let everybody know you are going exploring, grab some extra members and do it. You do not become an official group with your own fancy logo and name.

Montoya · Sep 30, 2015

Space Monkey said:
I think at this point the council seems like a fact-finding group setup to figure out how to organize a specific branch, in this case Exploration.

Yep, thats pretty much the idea.

Montoya · Sep 30, 2015

Salt Lake said:
The Council is not for deciding how a TEST Squad is ran, merely cross communication.

Exactly.

Firstly, all the exploration guys should be able to know what the other is doing.

Secondly, if I need some intel, I know I can just go to the head of the council and ask because he/she is my single point of contact.

I do not need to reach out to 10 different groups to find out where the new jump point is.

Also, keep beers chilled, nobody likes warm beer except the British.

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