Possible cheating within Star citizen?
- Thread starter Semphis Rythorn
- Start date
True! Actually, SC since DFM's release is semi-authoritative, but in practice its still virtually all client side.
It's very easy to demonstrate why you don't do fully server-side games (It's laggy!). Look at the ram kills in AC matches. Even without the most recent bout of desync; both clients can report being 100-150m clear of each other, but the server extrapolates positions between network packet updates & decides players have collided! Happens all the time! Going back to the start of DFM.
Eventually, we'll move to having all itemports confirmed by the server, but a lot of it will continue to be client-side to minimize lag. The biggest thing is we'll be transferring base stats of all items/ships from the server instead of always hosting them locally as soon as we connect to the CIG server. (They began implementing that in q2-2015. Where the server began rejecting modified ship implementations files (what governs how ships themselves and anything attached to them operate))
^not the inventory.xml governing loadouts that people like to edit, but the actual xml data governing ships
Well, in a proper semi-authoritative server setup, you want the server to only simulate and replicate on the network, only gameplay important elements.
In Star Citizen, since it is such a complex simulation, there is only very few things you can have only client side that are not gameplay important. Things such as particle physics, visual effects, UI simulations and other crappy things like that. It will have to be mostly server authoritative. This is why fast paced games heavy on physics simulations have low server tick rates (BF4, Arma 3). That way you can save server resources, and interpolate the extra client frames.
In my past projects I even went as far as to evaluating physics at different frame rates depending on the case. For example for large, slow moving objects with small vector changes I would request longer interpolation periods, for small fast moving objects, more frequent checks, for projectiles 2 checks per launch, and interpolate with the client side results. That would save a shit ton of processing resources and bandwidth.
Malogos; voicing over the youtube video of going 19:1 that was edited to appear like he was lag-switching.
So my questions to anyone less partial than myself:
1) There is one decent combat pilot in that game (and no offense to anyone), but 9 people that at the time the video was made were either not on the leaderboard, or not cracking the top several thousand (absolutely new players).
2) Where is the lag switching / freezing
You can edit anything to appear some way, but what does watching the entire match show? A crack pilot phoned a game in fighting very in-experienced pilots....
Xian-Luc Picard
Space Marshal
Splicepoint
Captain
I'm not really convinced either and honestly I'm not too worried about it until things are a bit further down the road. These issues will be identified and resolved as needed. Right now I just want CIG to give us more content. Would love to get cargo, mining, exploration, jump points into the Mini-PU.
ghost53574
Space Marshal
Having read what @Toysrme and @Krystal LeChuck said has given me an idea of where the game currently is along with the information about the desync, single cloud network in texas; I'd like to give an example to you what this sounds like.
I have played A LOT of Counter Strike Global Offensive in the past year (I peaked at LE) and what I've seen is something similar. When people don't understand how to game should work, what they might be doing to effect the desired result will never result in that desired result.
Example:
Some idiot is running along with his heavy hooves on Mirage going from 'B' site to 'A' site through market-jungle-short, he's on CT, because the Terrorists have done an A spit and killed all of his teammates. This kid is very good at flicking his shots, he loves pwinging noobs on Call of Duty with no-scope FaZe shots, so he manages to get a kill on the player in closet and stairs immediately but he does not know where the last terrorist is. The timer is ticking away and he can't wait any longer so, not walking, he moves over to the bomb to fake a defuse but he doesn't see or hear anything. So he sticks the defuse and gets knifed in the back.
The point is that even at higher levels of play, MG1-LE, people still run around the map, can't pre-aim, can't pre-fire, can't clear common spots or corners correctly, can't work together by setting up crossfires... Basically they don't understand how the game is supposed to be played all the while having the expectation that they do, which is why you get A LOT of people who complain of cheating when you calmly get a 4k headshot spree when tactically walking around the enemy team who planted the bomb 'safe'.
How this relates to Star Citizen clearly is demonstrated by the fact that these people who hyped up the "OMG LULZ Its lag switching" don't understand that the desynchronization of information between the client and the server ultimately is what is going to screw up their experience.
Many people may never get it, but the right way to handle this bullshit aside is to simply say that it's RSI's fault. They created an invaluable PTE asset, but they did it before creating a reliable network. I saw this during the launch of the PTE and the announcement of the FPS side of SC.
@Krystal LeChuck is the only one who is correct in explaining the functionality between client and server packet handling with the statement that the relationship is semi-authoritative exclusively. But you also need to take into consideration that since it is semi-authoritative the checks the server makes goes against it's own law of truths. This is not The Culling where you can make an arrow do 999 damage.
Anyway, good talk. If you would like to continue the discussion, when I have time, I would like to further decompile the SC client and unofficially test SC servers and post the results here.
I have played A LOT of Counter Strike Global Offensive in the past year (I peaked at LE) and what I've seen is something similar. When people don't understand how to game should work, what they might be doing to effect the desired result will never result in that desired result.
Example:
Some idiot is running along with his heavy hooves on Mirage going from 'B' site to 'A' site through market-jungle-short, he's on CT, because the Terrorists have done an A spit and killed all of his teammates. This kid is very good at flicking his shots, he loves pwinging noobs on Call of Duty with no-scope FaZe shots, so he manages to get a kill on the player in closet and stairs immediately but he does not know where the last terrorist is. The timer is ticking away and he can't wait any longer so, not walking, he moves over to the bomb to fake a defuse but he doesn't see or hear anything. So he sticks the defuse and gets knifed in the back.
The point is that even at higher levels of play, MG1-LE, people still run around the map, can't pre-aim, can't pre-fire, can't clear common spots or corners correctly, can't work together by setting up crossfires... Basically they don't understand how the game is supposed to be played all the while having the expectation that they do, which is why you get A LOT of people who complain of cheating when you calmly get a 4k headshot spree when tactically walking around the enemy team who planted the bomb 'safe'.
How this relates to Star Citizen clearly is demonstrated by the fact that these people who hyped up the "OMG LULZ Its lag switching" don't understand that the desynchronization of information between the client and the server ultimately is what is going to screw up their experience.
Many people may never get it, but the right way to handle this bullshit aside is to simply say that it's RSI's fault. They created an invaluable PTE asset, but they did it before creating a reliable network. I saw this during the launch of the PTE and the announcement of the FPS side of SC.
@Krystal LeChuck is the only one who is correct in explaining the functionality between client and server packet handling with the statement that the relationship is semi-authoritative exclusively. But you also need to take into consideration that since it is semi-authoritative the checks the server makes goes against it's own law of truths. This is not The Culling where you can make an arrow do 999 damage.
Anyway, good talk. If you would like to continue the discussion, when I have time, I would like to further decompile the SC client and unofficially test SC servers and post the results here.
Actually, you can. I did that in summer-2015 with CIG helping them in the mod-group understand (by their request) what all was being done client-side; which they did not understand entirely through q3-2015 (and by the way they talked, neither crytek or other cryengine partners could answer their question as to what was being done client (virtually everything) and what is done on the server).
When you use a lag switch you must no longer lead the target. The pip still shows a lead but you must aim directly on the target to hit. So the video clearly shows that he is NOT lag switching.
This is a very old discussion.
As lag is essentially a way of life in these Alpha builds, it doesn't really matter if people are lag switching because it makes no difference: lag + more lag = lag.
Not worth worrying about until the game works with minimal lag.
As lag is essentially a way of life in these Alpha builds, it doesn't really matter if people are lag switching because it makes no difference: lag + more lag = lag.
Not worth worrying about until the game works with minimal lag.
He was just....
Wait for it....
Lagging behind in the discussion.
Haaaaaahaha.
I'll let myself out.
Phantomoftruth
Space Marshal
Thank you @Toysrme for responding. I remember this from last year and the sturm und drang around it.
wasn't sure whether to like, or report
I can imagine the report going to the mods:
"Look at this talented bastard! How are we supposed to compete!?"
Perhaps of interest to you - Perhaps not.
https://torrentfreak.com/blizzard-beats-cheat-maker-wins-85-million-copyright-damages-170403/
https://torrentfreak.com/blizzard-beats-cheat-maker-wins-85-million-copyright-damages-170403/
Things like this give me hope. Granted, this current "lag switching" may or may not be a thing. It may or may not be a result of active cheating. However, I sincerely hope that CIG takes cheating as seriously as Blizzard does.
I have been playing multiplayer games since way back in the days if ID and running LAN parties. Cheating was present back then and it has never stopped rearing its ugly head in every single game since. Every MMO, every FPS, and every RTS has had cheaters exploit every single possible vulnerability for even the slightest advantage.
It's a fact of life. If there is anything close to a competition, people will try to cheat. It's just part of online gaming. The biggest issue of all though is not that they will always be there, but that most developers use that "its part of gaming" as an excuse. They take a minimalist stance, fail to acknowledge the extent of the issue, or sometimes plain ignore the issue. Eventually, all competitive online games are separated into two categories. They are either games that take it seriously like Blizzard and take a hard stance right off the bat, or they wait till hackers have ruined their game and driven away all their players.
Nine times out of ten, games fall into the latter. They pretend nothing is wrong and claim everything is ok. They wait and ignore the issue until it is too late and only after their game is ruined, do they take the necessary steps. I have seen it over and over in the industry. If they wait, their game gets a bad reputation, legitimate players leave, and the damage is officially done. There is just no coming back from that place. Even if they fix the hacker issue months or years later, people will always see hackers.
I have seen some amazing games take this route. These are games that could have been wildly successful. They could have been so much fun and had so much potential, but it was ruined because the developer failed to take the necessary steps. If CIG decides to take this apathetic route, it won't matter how good the game is. It will get known for hacks, people will stop playing, those that stay will get hacks to compete with the hacks, and the game will end up as a mere shadow of what it could have been.
I just hope CIG steps up and makes it happen.