Best Weapon for Redeemer Turrets?

White Lando

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I know stuff gets changed a lot (buffed/nerfed) but I'm wondering what everyone's favorite load out for the Redeemer is as of patch 3.15.1

Was leaning towards trying laser cannons first. Any reason to pay more for M7As over the Omniskys? They look identical per erkul.

1638883732457.jpg
1638883732457.jpg

I'm not sure why my images turn to shit when I attach them. :drunk:

 
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Deroth

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I know stuff gets changed a lot (buffed/nerfed) but I'm wondering what everyone's favorite load out for the Redeemer is as of patch 3.15.1

Was leaning towards trying laser cannons first. Any reason to pay more for M7As over the Omniskys? They look identical per erkul.

View attachment 22048View attachment 22048

I'm not sure why my images turn to shit when I attach them. :drunk:
Check out the Erkul dev page, it has capacitor information so you can see how many shots they get, so there might be a difference there.

When I toyed around with the deemer in PTU, my preference was to use CF-xxx laser repeaters for the turrets and main weapons.
 

White Lando

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Check out the Erkul dev page, it has capacitor information so you can see how many shots they get, so there might be a difference there.

When I toyed around with the deemer in PTU, my preference was to use CF-xxx laser repeaters for the turrets and main weapons.
If I'm reading it right, they both have the same number of shots (26). I'm new to using erkul so might be looking at the wrong thing.

Screenshot_20211207-085624.png
 

vahadar

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I am using lasers too for mine. No need to go rearm, pretty versatile for PVE and PVP. Not the best DPS but still ok.
Front S4 : 2*Cf-447 Rhino repeaters
Remote S3 turrets : 4*NDB-30 repeaters (anti light fighters for pvp)
S5 turrets : 4*M7A cannons

Did not noticed Omniskys were identical (for now) and cheaper, good find ;)
 
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White Lando

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I am using lasers too for mine. No need to go rearm, pretty versatile for PVE and PVP. Not the best DPS but still ok.
Front S4 : 2*Cf-447 Rhino repeaters
Remote S3 turrets : 4*NDB-30 repeaters (anti light fighters for pvp)
S5 turrets : 4*M7A cannons

Did not noticed Omniskys were identical (for now) and cheaper, good find ;)
Have you upgraded any of the components? Do the power plants need to be upgraded? Any issues with the stock coolers?

I always feel like I waste a bunch of AUEC. Trying to minimize that so I can upgrade my other ships.
 

vahadar

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Have you upgraded any of the components? Do the power plants need to be upgraded? Any issues with the stock coolers?

I always feel like I waste a bunch of AUEC. Trying to minimize that so I can upgrade my other ships.
No I havent upgraded anything besides the guns.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Note that laser cannons have half the projectile speed of laser repeaters (700 m/s instead of 1,400 m/s), so the distance between the pip and target will be twice as much if you switch to cannons, and the target has twice as much time to change direction and avoid the shots. Though cannons are more efficient, they are harder to hit with than repeaters and if your gunners are good enough to do that, they'd be much more effective with Revenants. If you go ballistics you can't stay in long battles, but you will kill twice as fast, and have much more power available to shields and engines, and the Carrack needs that power.

Given the weapons are all going to have their stats changed again I suggest focus more on updating the shields (military A FR-86), the reactor to highest power and overclock during combat (Industrial A Durango) as stock power available is not nearly enough. Grab max cooling (Industrial A ChillMax) and swap the Q Drive for something faster (Military A TS-2), which if you overclock will give you excellent combat jump capability, saving you more than a quarter minute on every spool. If you are micro-jumping in combat on short notice, military matters. (Note that overclocking the Q drive does not shorten travel times but only spool time. You only need to do that during battle.)

If you optimize around ballistics, your shields will recharge much faster, your maneuvering will be much more nimble, and your guns will be much more deadly, but they will run out of ammo eventually so your gunners need to use trigger control. Use Voice Command to put everything on overclock at once, and off again after battles. This ship does not have enough power for its systems, unless you go to ballistics. Going ballistics will therefore give you a noticable improvement in shield recharge rates and maneuverability. It is also important to learn to fly this decoupled, since you will burn excessive fuel in combat if you fly coupled. In most short battles (3-4 opponents), Carracks burn half their fuel and less than half their ballistics, so don't be afraid to try Revenants. They don't seem to be the limiting factor.

I suspect you're aware that the main challenges to the Carrack are the Tally, Hammerhead, M2 and the Redeemer. You need to be very cognizant of all their SCMs, relative maneuverability, and full weapons arc threat level. At present I'm convinced the Carrack can take all its opponents, especially given its much better scan. Just you need to use the Q drive to avoid torps, and not have the HH and Redeemer cut you to pieces at close range. Make sure you orbit attack nose in so all weapons come to bear at once, and put about 50% power to front shields, 17% for all the others.

Final note if you're running a full crew and planning on military action together. I posted up the other day about this discovery that the Carrack locks down ships placed on top of the Hangar doors. It is doubtful anything placed there will respawn with the ship, but if you can find a way to quickly and reliably place a Ballista on top of those doors before a bounty mission, etc., then you can fly an Ultra-Carrack.

Apart from the obvious advantage of an extra turret compete with its own shields and power supply, the missiles are a game changer. The Carrack has no missiles and opponent pilots should know this. This means in a battle, these other ships' pilots will seek to engage you out of range of your guns. If you surprise them with a pair of Hellion VIIs, odds are the best they could do is shoot down one of them, which means so long as you can get a lock, you are guaranteed 108k points damage on an opponent. That is all full of win. The limiting factor here is whether you can share the Large size radar and sensors of the Carrack with the Vehicle size radar and sensors of the Ballista.

I would be looking to fly an Ultra-Carrack if there is any way to make it work. Important note on the Hellion VII is they have an absurdly low minimum lock range of 50 meters, so you can jump right on top of an opponent and dumbfire or lock and fire them if you like, for 208k damage. That kind of tactical surprise will kill even Redeemers with ease, and we haven't even considered the uses for the 2X4 Stalker Vs, which is another 4X40k points damage in packages the large ships cannot defeat.

How do you get a Ballista on top of a Carrack? First thing I would check is whether you can spawn a Ballista on an elevated pad, where you can back a Carrack up to the edge of the pad and simply drive the Ballista onto the top of the Carrack. After that connecting the sensors between the Carrack and Ballista would seem the next step, though I don't think that is in game yet. Failing that connect, you still have short range sensor capability with the Ballista. Odds are it can see a Hammerhead at 15-20 km. The Carrack should have 4X that range, but last I checked all Large sensors were still acting as Medium, so only 3X.

Final pitch on the Revenants: on overclock, the Revs do about 12k dps for 160 seconds. With all 8 Revs firing on one target at a time, most targets will go down in 1-3 seconds. We're talking about large ballistics that do heavy internal damage from the first shots, flying through shields unless they're Sukoran, etc. There are no Large shields that block ballistics, so far as I'm aware.

Ballistics are just better at killing targets. Yes, there are plenty of small fighters that can no longer afford to fly them because their magazines only hold 20 seconds of ammo, but the Carrack's mags hold 160 seconds when firing at overclocked = 900 rpm.

Revenants. Try 'em. You'll like 'em. in order to get your gunners used to proper trigger control, have them practice rotating the barrels by periodically tapping the trigger long enough to start the barrels turning, but short enough that the gun does not fire. If they acquant themselves with keeping the barrels rolling but not firing, they'll be 90% of the way toward holding fire when they're not on target. Twitch, twitch, twitch.
 
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Ayeteeone

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@White Lando I'm running CF-557's on the Redeemer's main turrets. Same velocity projectile as the stock gatlins; at size 5 you are limited to 700 m/s until further notice. Being lasers, it becomes easy for a small crew to run up a string of bounty missions in short order, or physically beat your way through the Gang missions without concern for ammo.

@Shadow Reaper great defense of the Revenants on a Carrack, but they don't fit on the Redeemer turrets.. could go on the pilot controlled hardpoints I suppose, although the ship is such a sluggard you'd have a time tracking anything with them.
 

Shadow Reaper

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The Redeemer likewise looks like one reactor is not enough for all that's going on, and just one cooler makes it appear it would overheat under stress. Is that so?

Can you tell us the top speed of the Redeemer? How do you think it accelerates from SCM to top speed compared to the HH, Carrack, M2 and Vanguard? I am guessing that is where it's size relative to the large ships really shines.
 

Deroth

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The Redeemer likewise looks like one reactor is not enough for all that's going on, and just one cooler makes it appear it would overheat under stress. Is that so?

Can you tell us the top speed of the Redeemer? How do you think it accelerates from SCM to top speed compared to the HH, Carrack, M2 and Vanguard? I am guessing that is where it's size relative to the large ships really shines.
Looks to me like the stock power plant and cooler can handle everything thing else being highest power drain, most heat, and loaded out with ballistic repeaters...with an extreme amount of overhead.
1638939340266.png


The pitch/yaw/roll is only slightly better than the HH, the SCM is a bit better, HH beats it for cruise speed, but it only has about a tenth of the mass of the HH.
 

Shadow Reaper

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There are quite a few ships that look good on paper but don't have enough power to adequately supply all their needs at full draw. I'm not sure the explanation, but it may concern power draw request time, and/or the fact that erkul does not calculate reactor power used during afterburner (which you use in combat). Not sure. The Carrack looks fine, but in practice, there is certainly not enough power and you have to cut some to gun caps and shields to have full afterburners, for instance. If you don't she's sluggish. If the guns are firing and she's maneuvering under strain, even when she is not taking hits the shields do not recharge. If you want full shield recharge rate with the larger FR-86s, you can't be firing weapons and burners unless you put in a larger reactor. This does not show up on erkul for reasons I'm unsure of.

The Redeemer power supply was predicated on ballistics for the S5 turrets so going lasers should exacerbate the power supply issue, and though cooling looks sufficient, I have to wonder about that too. It's worth noting several fighters come out of the box with inadequate cooling, and you can't tell that from looking at erkul. Any time you get an engine overheat warning as opposed to weapons overheat (which have their own overheat times) the problem is inadequate cooling. Some stock ships overheat engines just flying to orbit, and you can't see this on erkul. I think there is a deeper analysis needed based upon power draw request time, that I haven't quite figured out. Fact remains, you can only really tell by flying the ship and using all the systems at once. The fixes are: install more power and cooling, and systems that require less power and create less heat. CIG planned this. There are some ships that have their stealth qualities ruined by adding lasers. Who knows what these figures will all be like after the next balance pass. Right now, all the weapons have near identical figures (one of two) , EMP and stealth are hopeless. I don't get what they're after.

BTW, your erkul is the same 3.15.1 edition as mine, but mine shows completely different numbers. My Redeemer has a stock EM of 44k and outfitted like yours above is 46k. (In real flight, Carrack EMs go over 100k during afterburner.) Seems the difference ought to be much more. My erkul has far less damage coming from the Galdereens, overclock enabled. I'd be delighted to find my erkul is fubar for some reason, because it has been showing terrible medium ship EM figures since 3.14--all except the Ares. I dunno what the story is. I need to fuss around with it some more. I should note it is extremely unlikely the Redeemer is ever going to have a 24K IR. I recommend you check it in flight. Again, I would love to find your figures are right and mine are wrong, but I have long guessed the Redeemer cannot be stealthed and the EM figures you have are really low. Compared to other ships, the EM ought to be about twice what you're showing afterburners off, and four times afterburners on.

Piece of advise on multi-crew ships like the Carrack, HH, and Redeemer--put the ship through tests of your own with a full crew and record the results. I think you'll be surprised at the lack of optimization and how much better you can make the ship. Likewise, spend the time to map 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20 and 25 second overclocked micro-jumps to see how far you move and write them down. You need that info for combat and so does anyone else who wants to think tactically aboard your ship. The whole crew should try to commit certain figures to memory or they'll never make decent Pilots, Navigators nor Captains. Failing to use the Q drive in combat is like failing to fly all your sheets on a sailing warship. Why not just unzip your fly and wave at the enemy while they kick you in the balls?

BTW, another odd erkul find--try turning off the retro thrusters on any stealth craft and flying without, and see what that does to your EM. I don't think most ships need retros for most flight, and small ships look like they can get useful EM improvements for stealth by turning off the retros. I think retros are used mostly in coupled mode, so really erkul ought to have a toggle for coupled/decoupled flight.
 
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Deroth

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There are quite a few ships that look good on paper but don't have enough power to adequately supply all their needs at full draw. I'm not sure the explanation, but it may concern power draw request time, and/or the fact that erkul does not calculate reactor power used during afterburner (which you use in combat). Not sure. The Carrack looks fine, but in practice, there is certainly not enough power and you have to cut some to gun caps and shields to have full afterburners, for instance. If you don't she's sluggish. If the guns are firing and she's maneuvering under strain, even when she is not taking hits the shields do not recharge. If you want full shield recharge rate with the larger FR-86s, you can't be firing weapons and burners unless you put in a larger reactor. This does not show up on erkul for reasons I'm unsure of.

The Redeemer power supply was predicated on ballistics for the S5 turrets so going lasers should exacerbate the power supply issue, and though cooling looks sufficient, I have to wonder about that too. It's worth noting several fighters come out of the box with inadequate cooling, and you can't tell that from looking at erkul. Any time you get an engine overheat warning as opposed to weapons overheat (which have their own overheat times) the problem is inadequate cooling. Some stock ships overheat engines just flying to orbit, and you can't see this on erkul. I think there is a deeper analysis needed based upon power draw request time, that I haven't quite figured out. Fact remains, you can only really tell by flying the ship and using all the systems at once. The fixes are: install more power and cooling, and systems that require less power and create less heat. CIG planned this. There are some ships that have their stealth qualities ruined by adding lasers. Who knows what these figures will all be like after the next balance pass. Right now, all the weapons have near identical figures (one of two) , EMP and stealth are hopeless. I don't get what they're after.

BTW, your erkul is the same 3.15.1 edition as mine, but mine shows completely different numbers. My Redeemer has a stock EM of 44k and outfitted like yours above is 46k. (In real flight, Carrack EMs go over 100k during afterburner.) Seems the difference ought to be much more. My erkul has far less damage coming from the Galdereens, overclock enabled. I'd be delighted to find my erkul is fubar for some reason, because it has been showing terrible medium ship EM figures since 3.14--all except the Ares. I dunno what the story is. I need to fuss around with it some more. I should note it is extremely unlikely the Redeemer is ever going to have a 24K IR. I recommend you check it in flight. Again, I would love to find your figures are right and mine are wrong, but I have long guessed the Redeemer cannot be stealthed and the EM figures you have are really low. Compared to other ships, the EM ought to be about twice what you're showing afterburners off, and four times afterburners on.

Piece of advise on multi-crew ships like the Carrack, HH, and Redeemer--put the ship through tests of your own with a full crew and record the results. I think you'll be surprised at the lack of optimization and how much better you can make the ship. Likewise, spend the time to map 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20 and 25 second overclocked micro-jumps to see how far you move and write them down. You need that info for combat and so does anyone else who wants to think tactically aboard your ship. The whole crew should try to commit certain figures to memory or they'll never make decent Pilots, Navigators nor Captains. Failing to use the Q drive in combat is like failing to fly all your sheets on a sailing warship. Why not just unzip your fly and wave at the enemy while they kick you in the balls?

BTW, another odd erkul find--try turning off the retro thrusters on any stealth craft and flying without, and see what that does to your EM. I don't think most ships need retros for most flight, and small ships look like they can get useful EM improvements for stealth by turning off the retros. I think retros are used mostly in coupled mode, so really erkul ought to have a toggle for coupled/decoupled flight.
The only systems that can be overclocked right now are Power Plants, OCing has been disabled in-game for everything else.

The link I used for Erkul is the DEV version where the implementation of the power triangle and capacitor effects are displayed:
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Looks hopeless. That calculator looks worse than the other. 400i with FR-86 charging has an EM of just 12k? If that's so I'll take two.

Makes no sense at all. I think during 3.14 CIG stopped caring about the numbers they report both inside and outside the company and the calculators are mostly useless, but the dev calc is the worse of the two. Of course people can each check individually with their own ships to see, but this calculator has the MSR with a much higher signature than a Carrack. How can that be?.
 
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Dirtbag_Leader

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On a sorta interesting relevant note, I played around with my 'Deemer loadout today and discovered that the capacitors for the pilot weapons and turret weapons are indeed different, as advertised. There's some interesting caveats with this though. Since the pilot controls the front remote turret, ITS shot capacity is linked to the rest of the turret system, regardless of what wing (true-pilot) weapons you use. Also, removing (but sadly not just powering off) energy weapons increases the energy available to the others. So removing the rather useless rear energy cannons boosts the amount of shots available to BOTH the pilot controlled S3s and the 'main' turret S5s (both Galdareens now in my case).
 

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There are lies, damn lies, the Prime Minister of the UK, and Statistics.

Go with anything you can hit the target with - it doesn't matter if the UltraCanon9k can hit with 50,000 DPS if you can't hit anything with it you'll get 0 DPS. I found this the hard way after traveling the length and bredth of Stanton to get the perfect numbers. They meant ziltch because the rounds were too slow for the targets I was wanting to go up against. Ended up with a setup half the power but with which I could hit with 3x more often which made it the more powerful option for me.
 
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