Can someone explain how to employ stealth, and the limits of its usefulness?
- Thread starter Raven_King
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Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
To go back to the general question of the utility of stealth in bounty hunting, I would note that as things are planned now, player bounties are going to go up in price and the biggest bounties will be paid for players in expensive ships brought in alive. So the most successful bounty hunters will be looking to take down crime lords captaining Polaris and Idris, and taking them alive.
That means take them in FPS mode and that means stalking and infiltrating places like Grim Hex, Nul and Pyro. The best way to track your quarry is from stealth, in a fast, extended range ship that can manage combat and/or evasion when discovered, and that is large enough to carry 1-2 NPC marines and the target on return. All of that sounds like the Vanguard.
That means take them in FPS mode and that means stalking and infiltrating places like Grim Hex, Nul and Pyro. The best way to track your quarry is from stealth, in a fast, extended range ship that can manage combat and/or evasion when discovered, and that is large enough to carry 1-2 NPC marines and the target on return. All of that sounds like the Vanguard.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
This is old now, but interesting to look at:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0O8RzVxqs
It's 12 shots to kill with 3 S3 guns, and does not generally shoot back, yet pays 87,599 aUEC plus bonuses and completes in about 5-6 minutes, so 10X/hour is about a million aUEC/hour.
Makes no sense to me. Why does anything with a Large shield go down so fast and why are all those lovely S4 guns not shooting back?
It's 12 shots to kill with 3 S3 guns, and does not generally shoot back, yet pays 87,599 aUEC plus bonuses and completes in about 5-6 minutes, so 10X/hour is about a million aUEC/hour.
Makes no sense to me. Why does anything with a Large shield go down so fast and why are all those lovely S4 guns not shooting back?
Brrrroookkkeeennn game !! ;)
This is the only reason why my OC HH is sitting in my buyback :) I do not think I will ever use the ship when the game is out (for now I have loaners that is enough) unless they really improve turrets and shields for bigger ships. There is no glory in soloing a HH like that, even an avenger with a S4 distortion scattergun can do it.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
I run an Eclipse for ERT Bounties, so I can answer some of these questions.
The Sentinel is not really stealthy in the first place, so how I use a Eclipse has to be considered at further distances.
I don't do anything special. I upgraded the stealth components to Grade A.
On approach I run flat out until I get to about 27KM, then cut the throttle limiter to SCM. The rest of the approach is at SCM.
I never use After Burner or Brakes as that lights you up like a Christmas tree.
You can lock an NPC and they do not react.
A Hammerhead (And other NPC ships) doesn't react to an Eclipse's presence at SCM until it is less than 4000 Meters out.
I fire and stop at more than 4500 meters. The NPC doesn't react even if the torp misses.
Now the down side. The Sentinel will be detected at a greater distance. That greater distance is outside the effective range of its missiles, and most of your gun options. The gun option matters less since once you fire, you are detected, and the NPC reacts.
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God I love this theory crafting and finding the best loadouts for diff scenarios.
So when I do ship combat (as I'm primarily more of a non-combatant medical type), I think I personally am interested in a more high-risk high-reward 'glass cannon' type ships & loadouts, where it's all about getting that first strike capability (be it due to superior ranged weapons/sniping, stealth w/ fire & forget of large payload, or start stealthy then zoom & boom where I get drop on them before they have much time to react).
I have an Eclipse which will work for this role. I would think either the Ares Inferno/Ion with it's redonkulous S7 weapon would work well for this approach too? Always have a Vanguard for it's range advantage over smaller ships (which is more sniping than stealth).
Love reading everyone's loadouts and tactics using these type ships, so feel free to post more and how you might change your loadout vs diff ship types. :)
So when I do ship combat (as I'm primarily more of a non-combatant medical type), I think I personally am interested in a more high-risk high-reward 'glass cannon' type ships & loadouts, where it's all about getting that first strike capability (be it due to superior ranged weapons/sniping, stealth w/ fire & forget of large payload, or start stealthy then zoom & boom where I get drop on them before they have much time to react).
I have an Eclipse which will work for this role. I would think either the Ares Inferno/Ion with it's redonkulous S7 weapon would work well for this approach too? Always have a Vanguard for it's range advantage over smaller ships (which is more sniping than stealth).
Love reading everyone's loadouts and tactics using these type ships, so feel free to post more and how you might change your loadout vs diff ship types. :)
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I think we should note that there are a couple different roles/uses for stealth and they differ in loadout. There's the standard stealth attack where you're looking at a single strike and then fight hot, and there are stealth situations/loadouts where you go back into stealth again and again. The Eclipse is designed like the second, though it seldom needs to attack the same target twice.
Most small and medium ships can be used for a stealth first strike but then when their shields come up, they're no longer stealthy. Some rare ships can go into stealth repeatedly while fighting. For instance, there are many occasions that the Arrow has proved itself able to regain a stealth posture in the middle of combat and simply wink off opponents' sensors. To do this, they're generally wearing stealth components except that they're making use of Industrial coolers like the Ultraflow. Since they're not stealth coolers, the ships never get quite as cool as those wearing stealth coolers, however; they dump heat almost three times faster than stealth coolers, so even when maneuvering, they can dump sufficient heat to regain a stealth footprint and basically vanish at 4 km. Combined with serious missile capability, this ability to regain stealth and vanish can be quite potent. In general Arrows are good at this because they don't have a second shield, so have an inherently low ER sig, and because they are so light they don't generate as much heat when flying full throttle.
One vid I watched with a guy in an Arrow, he either vanished or offered his opponent no ability to lock his weapons for several minutes of combat, and all the guy could do was swear at him--and can you blame him?
Most small and medium ships can be used for a stealth first strike but then when their shields come up, they're no longer stealthy. Some rare ships can go into stealth repeatedly while fighting. For instance, there are many occasions that the Arrow has proved itself able to regain a stealth posture in the middle of combat and simply wink off opponents' sensors. To do this, they're generally wearing stealth components except that they're making use of Industrial coolers like the Ultraflow. Since they're not stealth coolers, the ships never get quite as cool as those wearing stealth coolers, however; they dump heat almost three times faster than stealth coolers, so even when maneuvering, they can dump sufficient heat to regain a stealth footprint and basically vanish at 4 km. Combined with serious missile capability, this ability to regain stealth and vanish can be quite potent. In general Arrows are good at this because they don't have a second shield, so have an inherently low ER sig, and because they are so light they don't generate as much heat when flying full throttle.
One vid I watched with a guy in an Arrow, he either vanished or offered his opponent no ability to lock his weapons for several minutes of combat, and all the guy could do was swear at him--and can you blame him?
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Hammerhead only pays (Depending on your bonus level) between 25k and 33k. Call to arms adds another 3K. About 5-10 minutes each with an Eclipse, once you are in space.
You can make 100K if you have an ERT Group Bounty from North Rock and the correct bonus level. In that group only one is a Hammerhead and since one of the others is likely to be a Hurricane, which is a bitch to kill with a torp. you are switching ships, or reloading and that slows you down.
For quicker, easy money, string VHRT and Group VHRT together and use a Vanguard, a Cutlass (If you are good at avoiding getting hit) or Connie (easiest). You can stay out longer without reloading, or refueling. Of course that isn't stealthy. LOL.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Plus the ability to carry the prisoner back and, probably, the ability to keep the target from using quantum to escape.
The ideal ship doesn't, yet, exist. The closest is likely the Cutlass Blue.
Last night I got (and completed, with <20 seconds to spare!) my first ever VHRT group bounty in the Hurston area. Woot! Altogether, not counting Call to Arms, I think it paid out just over 70k for killing the three targets in under 45 minutes. I assume that’s about normal, and I lost track of my costs in all the excitement, but I guess 10k?
Used my Sentinel with a fixed S5 Absolution distortion scattergun, and the Vanguard S2 GVSR laser repeaters, all overclocked, with Crossfield III missiles and liberal use of the EMP. I have not noticed any benefit from trying to turn off components and go quiet for this current-game activity. I maybe get slightly closer to the PvE targets before I am noticed (?), but I never got ‘the jump’ on any of them. Going loud right from the start, including charging the EMP as I approached the target location, seemed to cause no additional problems. So I appreciate that PvE and PvP are very different things, but am I missing anything here from a stealth perspective?
It is definitely not. >.<
Also, is it just me or are the Valkyrie and Hurricane PvE bounty targets in HRT missions harder than the Valkyries and Wardens I got in the VHRT mission I did? I had mighty battles on several HRTs and got quite dinged up - ‘cause I’m not very good yet - but the VHRT targets were not as hard to kill, hitting back less hard with fewer escorts. Maybe not a big enough sample size?
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Richard Bong
Space Marshal
I have found the Vanguard and Valkyrie targets in the HRT and VHRT missions about the same. The ERT Vanguards, Valkyries and Hurricsnes are a little tougher because their reinforcements tend to arrive sooner.
I recommend the Galadreen or M7A for their longer range. Carry all Arrestor III's (launch 2 at about 3000 meters) and you shouldn't need to take more than about 2 seconds of fire from a Valkyrie or any fire from a Hurricane. The Vanguard uses a laser, I believe an M7A which is a bit less lethal.
The Vanguard is not a get in close and mix it up ship. With the Vanguard, and the Connie, hold the range open as long as possible. Though 3.14 is likely to change my loadout.
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Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
IMHO, the most important use of Stealth is recon. Searching for something without being seen yourself is a powerful mode. There is no real "search" however in the planned missions. I think you will need either PVP for that, or the missions that will open up in things like the Sons of Orion storyline, delving into Vanduul space once that is a thing. If you had a problem finding the targets for the missions you are currently finding, then flying stealthily as you search would give a large advantage.
N
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
One other point that CIG should eventually get. EM and IR seeker heads are passive so your warning receiver should not light up on a lock, only when the missile's engines are detected by your IR sensors.
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
Cross Section is targeted based on the hull "cross section" which would require an active scan.
Oh, okay - do you know of a reference for that? I thought that (in-universe) it was meant to be more a sort of image recognition concept - like a camera with some AI that recognised the shape of a target ship, like face recognition in real-world cameras.
Two thoughts -
1) Ping is active, and somehow checks all 3 characteristics. Normal 'radar' in this game is passive until you push the button. And all of it is a long way from done.
2) 3.14 incoming. Brace for heavy rolls, er, 'balancing'.
Some folks might want to stock up on potato chips so they have enough salt for their tears.
1) Ping is active, and somehow checks all 3 characteristics. Normal 'radar' in this game is passive until you push the button. And all of it is a long way from done.
2) 3.14 incoming. Brace for heavy rolls, er, 'balancing'.
Some folks might want to stock up on potato chips so they have enough salt for their tears.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I think the cross section missiles presume an active scan from the missile itself, but there's no active function in game.
The wording could be clearer, but - a ship's radar is passive, until you send out a Ping which is active. Passive gives you a certain range, Ping gives you more range. Scan gives information about targets that you have either picked up passively, or with a Ping. IR, EM and CS are characteristics of your ship that can be detected either passively or with a Ping.
NO, this does not align with real world systems.
From 3.14 (PTU) Patch Notes:
Gameplay
Radar, Scanning, and Ping T0
We have overhauled the Radar, Scanning, and Pinging system. Tab (default) now does a ping from your ship that will Radar is used to passively locate and track contacts, and display their whereabouts to the player. Scanning is used to obtain information about a specific entity. Ping actively finds additional contacts, or highlights volumes of space to investigate weak signatures, both of which are displayed via the radar and its AR HUD elements. This includes a new UI element for Infrared (IR) – emitted by heat-generating entities Electromagnetic, (EM) – emitted by entities which draw (use) or generate electrical power, and Cross Section (CS) representing how visible an entity is, based on its size and how reflective its surface type(s). The larger a contact is (and the more of its profile it presents), the greater its CS signature is.
Blobs are generated when an entity's signature strength is strong enough to reach the radar but not otherwise strong enough to be detected as a contact. These blobs are visually divided into cuboids the ship's display and indicate a volume of space to investigate, where an entity, or entities might be located. The size of a Blob is determined based on the base signature strength of the entity meaning the larger a blob is, the less accurate its representation of an entity's position.
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