CIG announced changes to PTU Waves Eligibility

[Radegast74]

This was posted on Spectrum, and has caused quite a bit of drama there...essentially they are basing PTU waves on amount of hours played the previous 2 patches, which is interesting...see the thread:

Spectrum - v7.8.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Revelant bits:

Wave 1:
- Top active players rated by hours in the previous two major patch cycles
- Subscribers
- Legatus Navium Concierge-level backers

Wave 2:
- Next top active players rated by hours in the previous two major patch cycles
- Praetorian Concierge-level backers

Wave 3:
- Next top active players rated by hours in the previous two major patch cycles
- Wing Commander, Space Marshal, and Grand Admiral Concierge-level backers

Wave 4:
- Next top active players rated by hours in the previous two major patch cycles
- High Admiral Concierge-level backers

Wave 5:
- All backers with an active Game Package

 

[Richard Bong]

Yet Another Cash Grab.

I'm disappointed but not surprised.

 

[CRISS9000]

compared to other stupid things CIG have done in the past, this is relatively speaking a nothingburger.

PTU is a worse experience than the still-messy Live servers. just wait for the next update to get to Live, and then wait another week or 2. that's the best thing to do.

 

[Richard Bong]

compared to other stupid things CIG have done in the past, this is relatively speaking a nothingburger.

PTU is a worse experience than the still-messy Live servers. just wait for the next update to get to Live, and then wait another week or 2. that's the best thing to do.

While true, it's an unforced error that just makes them look greedy on CIG's part.
To avoid this, they could leave all of the Concierge in wave 1, and when the feature tourists drop off, in a couple of days, go to wave 2.
It doesn't cost them anything, and still fills the stated goal without looking greedy and without ticking off the backers that have spent way more than this tech demo is worth.

 

[Thalstan]

I am thinking it makes them look desperate

We know they made a very large acquisition this year
We know revenues are down (not a ton, but if they were expecting another record, that could be an issue)
We know they have recently built an expensive headquarters
We know they expanded their headcount.
We know that SQ is having hints about moving to beta, yet many of the systems they wanted to implement are not even in T0, much less T1 and T2.
All this is now making me wonder if they might be running into a revenue problem...

 

[CRISS9000]

wonder if they might be running into a revenue problem...

inevitably. they've been riding high on record profits year after year until now. it was only a matter of time until they reached the point where profits just do not increase.

it's on them if they were blind to that fact.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

An slightly edited response to a response to a message I originally put in Concierge to someone who felt slanted that Legotits backers equated to the same as a $10 subscription in getting access to wave 1 which pretty much sums up my perspective:

tl;dr: The PTU if for your Data, not your Dollars.

"Some of us have contributed more in time, some more in money, and some more in general enthusiasm and engagement outside of the game like chatting here in Spectrum. It all contributes. [...]

Although some individual efforts are exemplary they are for the most part a contribution to a bigger pot be it financial or play testing. The greater efforts are undeniably a commitment and appreciated, but they may not be as much of a central tent-pole support as an individual who puts in that contribution may assume it to be, especially if it has come at personal sacrifice or hardship to them. Looking at the greater context is pretty humbling that my years of chipping away is still a drop in the bucket. [...]

We'll never really know the exacts beyond what we can see on that Kickstarter page - perhaps the [backer who took the single] $10k pledge also took the $5k pledge too and contributed 0.75%? Perhaps they bought one of everything on the page and contributed $20,317 making it 0.95%? Who knows, but even that incredible input would still be less than a single percent of that early funding achievement, not a central column carrying it. It really was a group effort.

Again I'm not saying it's not a hell of a contribution or commitment, I only wish I could have been in a position to be as generous but the context of it really does shine a light that right now an impactful net drain on the project has been identified - there is a detractor from the whole which has been spotted and something has had to be altered to stop it from becoming unsustainable.

Under the new model some people will get Wave1 for contributing time by playing the game which goes toward data which is the point of the PTU and helps make the game better, removing the drain that way (they get what they pay the server fees for: Play data). Some get Wave1 for contributing a staggering amount of financial support to the project historically which I assume covers that drain through interest gained on funds deposited/invested or some other way, or the pool of Legotits backers is just so small it would not have an impact either way... And some people will willingly cover the cost of their Wave1 access by contributing funds for their PTU visit by paying for the subscription, which caters for the drain that way.

If there are 60k Concierge who log in to check out the PTU and then depart without contributing play time or in another way, and we assume it costs the whole subscription fee of $10 a backer to spin up the additional server load, that's a hit of $600,000 which dwarfs my or your lifetime commitment to the project many times over, without any net benefit or contribution to the project, every new patch... that becomes unsustainable when that money should be going to keeping the lights on.

What this all says to me is "The PTU needs your data, not your dollars" and if you don't bring much data you'll have to cover that overhead with a $10 subscription or we are wasting too much on server costs. Otherwise you still get your PTU access with a costless and effortless solutions which is spreading that extra load out over time making the servers cost less."

 

[Thalstan]

I wonder what the costs are between a PU server and a PTU server.

let’s assume that people who just log in for the changes decide to wait for the PU and then behave in the same manner. They log in, see what changed, then log out. The exact same scenario as they initially mentioned, just put into the PU. Doesn’t it cost them a similar amount?

What happens when the game goes live and they have a huge influx of players that never buy anything but the base game package?

either way, they need money for those servers. Either way, it’s going to cost money to either keep those servers up, or spin them up

i would argue that if they were so concerned about the number of players causing issues with server costs, they implement a more pragmatic idea, which is to just put in a queue system.
we have 10 PTU servers, so 1k people can test at any one point in time this wave. Or, we have 100, so 10k can test. Whatever the numbers they see.

in any case, server costs are something they have to figure out. Either through a subscription Model or some other scheme that gets them the money they need to operate.

 

[Richard Bong]

What this all says to me is "The PTU needs your data, not your dollars" and if you don't bring much data you'll have to cover that overhead with a $10 subscription or we are wasting too much on server costs. Otherwise you still get your PTU access with a costless and effortless solutions which is spreading that extra load out over time making the servers cost less."

If it is data over dollars, then subscribers should be in wave 4 or 5.
Putting subscribers in wave 1 says they are hurting for money. That they need new money and way over spent the money they've collected.

If it isn't about new money then the simple solution is to leave all of concierge in wave one, then when those that are just there to see the new features or new ship drop off fire up wave 2.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

If it is data over dollars, then subscribers should be in wave 4 or 5.
Putting subscribers in wave 1 says they are hurting for money.

But does it?

It may do, but it may also point to a logical proposition that subscribers likely fund their spot on the server. If they are paying the costs of themselves, and potentially others who are there testing too, then they are still bringing a net benefit to the issue rather than being a cause of it.

That they need new money and way over spent the money they've collected.

If it isn't about new money then the simple solution is to leave all of concierge in wave one, then when those that are just there to see the new features or new ship drop off fire up wave 2.

$10 to get people to the front of a queue which may be as little as only a few hours long? I can't quite see the logic of that? I mean if they want to skip the queue that bad wouldn't a specific queue jump ticket for $10 not serve getting in more cash a lot better than including it in Subscription which many committed backers already have? If they were trying to coin it in this is a bad way of doing it when they could be charging for queue jump seperately from Subscription which is a product in its own right...?

Additionally, we can't see the data CIG has. Subscribers may make a sizeable pool of active users who enter into Wave1 and contribute to the PTU play testing, or alternately may like the Legotits backers be such a small pool of interaction as to not be noticeably impactful if they do, or don't, join in with the PTU. Unless you do have your hands on that analysis set...? If you could confirm if you do/don't that'd really help in being able to gauge the accuracy of your angle.

Concierge backers have and do make an incredible contribution to the project however to put it in context a $30,000 Legotits level contribution is 0.005% of the total raised to this point and if, say, for example servers cost an additional $30k each fresh patch due to single-log-in tourism that wipes out 667 game package pledges for no discernable benefit beyond keeping the highly invested interested.

Yes, it's nice to be able to get a look at what I've helped to achieve so far, but on the flip side of that I personally have contributed 0.0006% of the total over the course of 8 years, and that percentage is only going down as time goes by and the total generated goes up. Is my curiosity worth voiding the kind commitment of a few hundred non-concierge backers every patch? I'd say with confidence that's a big big no.

 

[Richard Bong]

But does it?

It's likely subscribers pay for their own spot on the server. If they are paying the costs of themselves, and potentially others who are actually testing too, then they are still bringing a net benefit to the issue.


$10 to get people to the front of a queue which may be only a few hours long? I can't quite see the logic of that?

Additionally, we can't see the data CIG has. Subscribers may make a sizeable pool of active play testers who enter into Wave1, or alternately may like the Legotits backers be such a small pool of interaction as to not be noticeable if they do, or don't, interact with the PTU. If you do have your hands on that analysis...?

Concierge backers have and do make an incredible contribution to the project however to put it in context a $30,000 Legotits level contribution is 0.005% of the total raised to this point and if, say, for example servers cost an additional $30k each fresh patch due to single-log-in tourism that wipes out 667 game package pledges for no discernable benefit beyond keeping the highly invested interested.

Yes, it's nice to be able to get a look at what I've helped to achieve so far, but on the flip side of that I personally have contributed 0.0006% of the total over the course of 8 years, and that percentage is only going down as time goes by and the total generated goes up. Is my curiosity worth voiding the kind commitment of a few hundred non-concierge backers every patch? I'd say with confidence that's a big big no.

The Subscribers are paying for the weekly shows, at least according to CIG, not servers.
If the subscribers are active testers then they would move up from wave 4 to wave 1 or 2 due to their activity and CIG still gets the money.

Further by spreading out the Concierge tiers they appear to be attempting to induce more spending from the whales. (I'm just a small whale.)

They haven't released the data in a while, but I'd wager it is still more than 85% of backers that own a starter pack and nothing else.

Further, given the state of the "game" I doubt even 5% are actively playing the game in the first place. I got bored when 3.19 came out so I logged in for the first time since February 2022. I played, intermittently, for about a month before I got so frustrated by the same old, game breaking bugs I gave up.

It's boring. The same crap gameplay with no depth for 5+ years. Repetitive fetch or kill missions, mine grinding, new mine grinding (salvaging), risk your ass cargo running or grief the n00bz.
Even without the game breaking bugs there isn't anything to hold a person's attention for more than 40 to 50 hours.

You want more people spending time on the servers to collect data. Fix the bugs and flesh out the game.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

The Subscribers are paying for the weekly shows, at least according to CIG, not servers.
If the subscribers are active testers then they would move up from wave 4 to wave 1 or 2 due to their activity and CIG still gets the money.

Further by spreading out the Concierge tiers they appear to be attempting to induce more spending from the whales. (I'm just a small whale.)

They haven't released the data in a while, but I'd wager it is still more than 85% of backers that own a starter pack and nothing else.

Further, given the state of the "game" I doubt even 5% are actively playing the game in the first place. I got bored when 3.19 came out so I logged in for the first time since February 2022. I played, intermittently, for about a month before I got so frustrated by the same old, game breaking bugs I gave up.

It's boring. The same crap gameplay with no depth for 5+ years. Repetitive fetch or kill missions, mine grinding, new mine grinding (salvaging), risk your ass cargo running or grief the n00bz.
Even without the game breaking bugs there isn't anything to hold a person's attention for more than 40 to 50 hours.

You want more people spending time on the servers to collect data. Fix the bugs and flesh out the game.

Thanks for your kind response, that's quite similar to my own post in that it's got quite a bit of speculation and not much evidence to back it up with beyond personal opinion: again as asked in my previous post please provide confirmation you do/don't have access to the data analysis the Waves decision was made off - just because they have not released data in a while doesn't mean you don't somehow have access to it. I don't need to know what that data is, I only need to know if you can see it to know if your statements are subjective opinion or objective based off observed evidence. It's hard and indeed pointless to argue with facts and would not continue past the point I knew you had your eyes on that.

If the subscribers are active testers then they would move up from wave 4 to wave 1

Not sure if I'm following you here Rich? Subscribers are in Wave 1 now and will be in Wave 1 in the New Wave structure. Nothing in that regard is changing... the thing that is changing is frequent players are getting earlier wave access and Concierge members(who don't include themselves under the new frequent players rule by putting in some play-hours of course) are getting later wave access. This has been on the Subscription Perks list for years:

Apologies, further to my confusion on the above, you also appear to contradict yourself here:

- The Subscribers are paying for the weekly shows, at least according to CIG, not servers.
- Further by spreading out the Concierge tiers they appear to be attempting to induce more spending from the whales. (I'm just a small whale.)

You take CIGs word as gospel for what Subs spend goes on, but disregard/ignore CIGs word on why they are making this change: They have stated 90% of Concierge backers who log in to the PTU are single-visit tourists who check out the new hotness, up the server count/load/spend and leave without contributing to the playtest data the PTU is there for so want to spread the load out and keep servers full for the testing. So one statement is cast in stone and another statement is bumph designed to sell more $10 subscriptions... again it feels like this is subjective personal opinion rather than having any objectivity behind it, and again I'll say "You may be right" but without that evidence your supposition is no more certain than mine is, other than mine is based along the lines of CIGs latest statement that about 90% of Consierge being single log ins and that is causing issues.

(Putting on record I too am a Minnow (small whale) - my last major contribution was the Storm and before that it was pulling an LTI token out of buyback and applying a CCU to it in Jan 2022 so I'm not exactly regularly contributing to active server costs myself.)

- I'd wager it is still more than 85% of backers that own a starter pack and nothing else
- Further, given the state of the "game" I doubt even 5% are actively playing the game in the first place.

I guess you were not far wrong. But that'd just be a guess, what info do you have to support that assumption? For example: What's the most owned ship in the 'Verse? Logic dictates it'd be the Aurora or Mustang as they are the base game package ships, but the last I heard from CIG during its re-work the most owned ship was the Origin 300 series. Is that still true now? I doubt it but then I don't have any up to date information on that so can't make a reliable statement for or against, it could still be the 300 series but it could easily have been overtaken by now.

 

[Richard Bong]

Thanks for your kind response, that's quite similar to my own post in that it's got quite a bit of speculation and not much evidence to back it up with beyond personal opinion: again as asked in my previous post please provide confirmation you do/don't have access to the data analysis the Waves decision was made off - just because they have not released data in a while doesn't mean you don't somehow have access to it. I don't need to know what that data is, I only need to know if you can see it to know if your statements are subjective opinion or objective based off fact.


Not sure if I'm following you here Rich? Subscribers are in Wave 1 now and will be in Wave 1 in the New Wave structure. Nothing in that regard is changing... the thing that is changing is frequent players are getting earlier wave access and Concierge members(who don't include themselves under the new frequent players rule by putting in some play-hours of course) are getting later wave access. This has been on the Subscription Perks list for years:

View attachment 24809

Apologies, further to my confusion on the above, you also appear to contradict yourself here:

You take CIGs word as gospel for what Subs spend goes on, but disregard/ignore CIGs word on why they are making this change: They have stated 90% of Concierge backers who log in to the PTU are single-visit tourists who check out the new hotness, up the server count/load/spend and leave without contributing to the playtest data the PTU is there for. So one statement is cast in stone and another statement is bumph designed to sell more $10 subscriptions... again it feels like this is subjective personal opinion rather than having any objectivity behind it, and again I'll say "You may be right" but without that evidence your supposition is no more right than mine is other than mine is based along the lines of CIGs latest statement about 90% of Consierge being single log ins.

(Putting on record I too am a Minnow (small whale) - my last major contribution was the Storm and before that it was pulling an LTI token out of buyback and applying a CCU to it in Jan 2022 so I'm not exactly regularly contributing to active server costs myself.)


I guess you were not far wrong. But that'd just be a guess, what info do you have to support that assumption? For example: What's the most owned ship in the 'Verse? Logic dictates it'd be the Aurora or Mustang as they are the base game package ships, but the last I heard from CIG during its re-work the most owned ship was the Origin 300 series. Is that still true now? I doubt it but then I don't have any up to date information on that so can't make a reliable statement for or against, it could still be the 300 series but it could easily have been overtaken by now.

I don't have any more access to data than you do. The key is perception.

According to everything they've said about subscriptions, that is where the money is supposed to be going. Is that where it is going? Given this change, that doesn't appear to be the case. The question becomes, if it is to pay for servers, what happens if this is ever launched? AWS servers aren't free and aren't exactly cheap.

Put subscribers on Wave 1, and remove people that are concierge, and you look like you are trying to get an influx of subscription money.

If the subscribers are playing more than others then there is no need to put them in wave 1 for the subscription because they're in that wave due to play time And moving subscribers down to wave 4, with the bottom tier of Concierge wouldn't make a difference and would demonstrate this isn't just a money grab.

Further, if you tier the concierge levels, you look like you're trying to get people to move up the ladder to higher tiers. That is always something to do, but it makes this perk look like a money grab.

The Origin 300 would still be a single game package/ship in most cases, but I hadn't heard the Aurora wasn't still number 1. The last numbers I'd heard was Aurora, Mustang, Avenger and 300 as the top 4. Either way 85+% not owning more than one ship is still likely to not have changed.

My last purchase was January 2022 where we finished out my wife's Sabre CCU chain (IIRC $35). She is about $15 short of Concierge and I'm about $200 short of $2500. Like I said, little whale. :) Unless some major changes happen, that is where it stays.

Is CIG desperate? I've no idea.
Does this make them appear desperate? Imho, yes.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I don't have any more access to data than you do. The key is perception.

Many thanks for the kind confirmation, appreciate it, it really helps put our discussion and probably most discussions about this in perspective

According to everything they've said about subscriptions, that is where the money is supposed to be going...

Again I have to question the contradiction here: You take the utterances on subscription as gospel, but discount all that has been officially said about why the wave structure is changing and claim it's a cash-grab. Either you do believe CIG about Subscription and so believe their explanation about the Waves, or you don't believe CIG about the Waves and in turn cannot trust them about what the subscriptions are spent on either... Which is it?

Put subscribers on Wave 1, and remove people that are concierge, and you look like you are trying to get an influx of subscription money.

Again, the subscribers were already in Wave 1 and have been for about 5+ years.

Additionally as I have already said, other than play testing they may also be brining additional value such as paying for their and others who do play test places on the server. If you get to speculate on perception I do too, and that's my speculation based on my perception :-) Thousands pledged over the course of 10 years by concierge members is undeniably appreciated but the $1k I contributed between 2016 and 2018 isn't exactly going to be keeping the lights on and the servers running in 2023, is it? We, you and I, are both self admitted rare modern spenders and clear evidence that at least a portion of concierge isn't exactly actively contributing in to the current company upkeep. How many more of us are there? How many of us are contributing to the PTU issue as described? (I don't do PTU, so I can clearly say: Not me!)

The Origin 300 would still be a single game package/ship in most cases, but I hadn't heard the Aurora wasn't still number 1. The last numbers I'd heard was Aurora, Mustang, Avenger and 300 as the top 4.

I must admit the last time I heared about this was in the Inside Star Citizen episode which talked about the 300 series rework. I'd love to see some more up to date numbers, could you share your source so I can get myself updated :-)

Either way 85+% not owning more than one ship is still likely to not have changed.

Apologies when you said "I'd wager" I took it that you were citing personal opinion on the 85% number, if you could kindly cite that source too I'd very much appreciate it :-)

Does this make them appear desperate? Imho, yes.

I can't argue with that the optics are never good on any change made which revokes permission to do something no matter how much impact it is having... however I do take their explanation at more face value that the lower level concierge is the source of an impact on the PTU which is unsustainable and has to change.

 

[Richard Bong]

This has been on the Subscription Perks list for years:

View attachment 24809

From https://support.robertsspaceindustries.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002542733-Concierge-Levels-and-Rewards

ACCESS TO THE PUBLIC TEST UNIVERSE (PTU)
We welcome all of our VIP members to join us in testing new game builds and changes in the Public Test Universe (PTU). When the PTU is open to your group (After Evocati), you can install the PTU from the RSI Launcher and help with testing and previewing the next release before it's live. For more information, see the Public Test Universe (PTU) FAQ.

It's been a listed Concierge perk longer. (Still is listed as such.)

 

[Richard Bong]

Many thanks for the kind confirmation, appreciate it, it really helps put our discussion and probably most discussions about this in perspective


Again I have to question the contradiction here: You take the utterances on subscription as gospel, but discount all that has been officially said about why the wave structure is changing and claim it's a cash-grab. Either you do believe CIG about Subscription and so believe their explanation about the Waves, or you don't believe CIG about the Waves and in turn cannot trust them about what the subscriptions are spent on either... Which is it?


Again, the subscribers were already in Wave 1 and have been for about 5+ years.

View attachment 24810

Additionally as I have already said, other than play testing they may also be brining additional value such as paying for their and others who do play test places on the server. If you get to speculate on perception I do too, and that's my speculation based on my perception :-) Thousands pledged over the course of 10 years by concierge members is undeniably appreciated but the $1k I contributed between 2016 and 2018 isn't exactly going to be keeping the lights on and the servers running in 2023, is it? We, you and I, are both self admitted rare modern spenders and clear evidence that at least a portion of concierge isn't exactly actively contributing in to the current company upkeep. How many more of us are there? How many of us are contributing to the PTU issue as described? (I don't do PTU, so I can clearly say: Not me!)


I must admit the last time I heared about this was in the Inside Star Citizen episode which talked about the 300 series rework. I'd love to see some more up to date numbers, could you share your source so I can get myself updated :-)


Apologies when you said "I'd wager" I took it that you were citing personal opinion on the 85% number, if you could kindly cite that source too I'd very much appreciate it :-)


I can't argue with that the optics are never good on any change made which revokes permission to do something no matter how much impact it is having... however I do take their explanation at more face value that the lower level concierge is the source of an impact on the PTU which is unsustainable and has to change.

I don'tcremember where CIG posted that data. It has been a while. It was in that neighborhood.

Being in wave 1 has been, and is still listed as being, a concierge perk longer than it's been a subscriber perk.

From: https://support.robertsspaceindustries.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013173847-Subscriptions-FAQ

Subscriptions are contributions that any user can make to the Star Citizen Project. Subscriptions contribute to Star Citizen project development by funding behind-the-scenes shows like Inside Star Citizen in addition to Jump Point, the monthly digital magazine about Star Citizen. This revenue also funds the development and release of subscriber-exclusive perks like the monthly flair series and exclusive subscriber merchandise!

The claim that they pay for the server use was yours. Can you, please, point to where you got that information? I may have been mistaken when I believed that was speculation on your part.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

From https://support.robertsspaceindustries.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002542733-Concierge-Levels-and-Rewards


It's been a listed Concierge perk longer. (Still is listed as such.)

Yes... I know... And CIG has stated the number of High Admireables logging in to PTU to check out the new hotness has become an issue which needs addressing.

That seems somewhat irrelevant to what you have been saying though...?

Apologies if I have misunderstood, to elaborate:

You have stated multiple times that Subs have been put in wave 1:

Putting subscribers in wave 1 says they are hurting for money.

and

If the subscribers are active testers then they would move up from wave 4 to wave 1

But that's where they always were...? Your statements suggest you feel they have recieved something they didn't have but they haven't been put anywhere because that's where they were in the first place...? And your suggestion that if Subs are active enough to be in Wave 1 means they should be in Wave 4 is a paradox as the frequency of their play would then put them in Wave 1 removing the requirement for them to be Subs in the first place... In fact changing the Waves like this may reduce the number of Subs because all you have to do now is play the game a bunch and you get access. Anyone playing the game enough to want to test the PTU on Wave1 to buy a sub to get in is ipso-facto going to get free entry now so this cash-grab is a self defeating exercise...

Further to that, we have discussed and agree neither of us have more information than has been publicly released and only the details about the lower concierge ranks have been released, so all we have to go on is that information. Where no other information exists, it suggests there was nothing to say about Subs being an issue. That isn't to say they may become an issue now with lower wave Concierge buying in to queue jump, but if they do and that $10 covers the server costs of their jumping the queue... does that not resolve that part of the issue...?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

The claim that they pay for the server use was yours. Can you, please, point to where you got that information? I may have been mistaken when I believed that was speculation on your part.

As I have stated in this discussion in the below quoted previous post, yes that was my speculation:

If you get to speculate on perception I do too, and that's my speculation based on my perception :-)

The claim that this change is a cash-grab was your (and many others) speculation. Can you please point to where you got the information that they intend for lower level concierge backers to spend to queue jump and that it was an intentional factor in the changes? I'm not denying you may be right. May be. Just give me the evidence and you blow me out of the water, as I have said I won't argue with hard evidence. If you can't give me the evidence my speculation is as good as yours.

- My speculation of Subscription not being downgraded is a logical conclusion based on observation and subjective reasoning that paying $10 per individual logging in once and not sticking around to play-test is enough to cover additional server costs they cause, negating that impact.

- Your speculation (and many others) of Subscription not being downgraded (if you knew it was Wave1 in the first place) is a logical conclusion based on observation and subjective reasoning that the wave change is to force infrequent players to pay for subscription to queue jump to be in Wave1.

I can't prove mine. You can't prove yours. We only have the official released statements to go on and that they are they have a super high server load to start with which then drops like a stone because players are not sticking around to keep testing the PTU, and lower tier Concierge are one of the main causes of it.

If non-concierge backers subscriptions falls, I might have been right. If concierge backers subscriptions rise you might have been right. And if the problem then moves to the Subscription backers because all the concierge members then buy one month to queue jump and then that gets nerfed too, we both might have been right. But even then I don't think that's a solid test result to base a solid conclusion on. We just don't have access to the data and the chain of decisions which mad the wave structure like it is changing to.

Unless you do and you're just not admitting it :-)

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

One thing I would suggest to perhaps keep Concierge backers of any level a little happier would be to bring back the Hangar Module to a decent degree or include their new flyable in AC to play with. This would be a (I assume) lower server stress environment where they can see their new toys while not spawning in the whole PTU and gumming it up. We still get our stuff but it's at a more manageable simulation scale.

Just a thought. Feeling cute, might delete later.

 

[Richard Bong]

Yes... I know... And CIG has stated the number of High Admireables logging in to PTU to check out the new hotness has become an issue which needs addressing.

That seems somewhat irrelevant to what you have been saying though...?

Apologies if I have misunderstood, to elaborate:

You have stated multiple times that Subs have been put in wave 1:


and


But that's where they always were...? Your statements suggest you feel they have recieved something they didn't have but they haven't been put anywhere because that's where they were in the first place...? And your suggestion that if Subs are active enough to be in Wave 1 means they should be in Wave 4 is a paradox as the frequency of their play would then put them in Wave 1 removing the requirement for them to be Subs in the first place... In fact changing the Waves like this may reduce the number of Subs because all you have to do now is play the game a bunch and you get access. Anyone playing the game enough to want to test the PTU on Wave1 to buy a sub to get in is ipso-facto going to get free entry now so this cash-grab is a self defeating exercise...

Further to that, we have discussed and agree neither of us have more information than has been publicly released and only the details about the lower concierge ranks have been released, so all we have to go on is that information. Where no other information exists, it suggests there was nothing to say about Subs being an issue. That isn't to say they may become an issue now with lower wave Concierge buying in to queue jump, but if they do and that $10 covers the server costs of their jumping the queue... does that not resolve that part of the issue...?

You missed where I suggested Subscribers be moved, like High Admiral, to wave 4. Why move one without the other?

This way people aren't paying $10 just to check out the new hotness.

Leaving Subscribers as Wave 1, regardless of their playing, puts CIG in the same position they are claiming leaving Concierge as is does. They just make money from it because you can subscribe for one month, just for this perk and people will.

Further removing the Concierge perk just moves the problem instead of eliminating it, and makes CIG look like they are doing this as a cash grab. Segmenting Concierge also gives the appearance that they are trying to push their concierge supporters to higher levels to boost cash.

The initial surge that quickly tapers off can be easily mitigated by just launching wave 2 when it tapers off. Problem solved, no need to piss off your biggest backers.