CIG Dev response to Ares Ion nerf

Mushin

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Not sure why these balance discussions keep popping up. The game isn't close to being done. There will have to be multiple passes before release, including Ion. They nerfed Ion because it was broke. You could easily kill any ship in 1 or 2 shots with pinpoint accuracy, even smaller ships using decouple. It was the low hanging balance fruit, so to speak. It'll change again and again.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Like a scattergun...? Perhaps a HD Dominance 7 scattergun (no such thing in game right now) and give it a smaller spread than shorter-range scatterguns have, e.g. so the area covered by their spread at max range is similar to the area covered by the spread of other scatterguns at their max range.

But I liked the Ion's gun before, don't like it so much now, and think Montoya is right. I'm miffed they nerfed the Ion so soon after it was released. That was a misstep. If you've got to nerf a ship - and absolutely sometimes you do - do it before release or give people a few months to enjoy what they think they bought after its release, and then perhaps rebalance it in six months time.
Sort of, it would disperse slightly over the range of its shot so if it was within 1km, no it would not disperse at all, but 1.5km to 3km it would start to spread out (wrong wording as there would be no gaps between damage points like there is with scatter gun pellets) but not very much compared to a Scatter Gun, and it would keep its long range compared to a Scatter Gun.

Consider the Starfarer: It is 23.5m tall.
Consider the Arrow: It is 4 meters tall.

If the shot leaves the Ion being, lets say 15cm across, at 3km it only has to be 20 meters across to only hit the arrow with less than much less force while still hitting the Starfarer with the full 100% force.

EDIT - >>> Explanation of this in my next post in this thread >>>
 
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White Lando

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Not sure why these balance discussions keep popping up. The game isn't close to being done. There will have to be multiple passes before release, including Ion. They nerfed Ion because it was broke. You could easily kill any ship in 1 or 2 shots with pinpoint accuracy, even smaller ships using decouple. It was the low hanging balance fruit, so to speak. It'll change again and again.
I think they pop up because people are playing the game and aren't happy with the current state of ships they'd like to fly.

If a ship is "balanced" in a way they don't believe is correct right now, it's understandable that they're concerned that this is how CIG envisions the ship to perform in the future.

Still a long ways out so I understand your point but it is what it is.
 

Doc Flanigan

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Not sure why these balance discussions keep popping up. The game isn't close to being done. There will have to be multiple passes before release, including Ion. They nerfed Ion because it was broke. You could easily kill any ship in 1 or 2 shots with pinpoint accuracy, even smaller ships using decouple. It was the low hanging balance fruit, so to speak. It'll change again and again.
I think this particular discussion popped up because the Ion was marketed as filling a long range sniper purpose, and they nerfed it's accuracy among other things. They could have just nerfed it's damage output, leaving accuracy alone, to create more of a balance and just make it a less powerful sniper. By nerfing accuracy it can no longer fill the sniper purpose.

If balance doesn't really matter until the game is done, then why should they bother nerfing ships at all? Just let them be, and worry about balancing it all out later. Seems like there'd be alot less drama and grief.
 

Harkonan

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From my understanding, it was marketed as a long range sniper ... for LARGE ships. Similar to how the cannons on the Jav are meant to be used.
The problem with the original implementation was that it was able to kill literally anything. But it's meant to be a support class ship. A ship needing escorts for protection against smaller ships.

I was surprised they nerfed it the way they did (I assumed they'd scale back its' agility and call it a day), but I knew a nerf was coming.

Reality is, this is going to be one of the trickier ships for them to balance. It's a single seat death cannon for big ships. It's going to need more attention than most ships as new ships and mechanics come online.
 

Mushin

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I think this particular discussion popped up because the Ion was marketed as filling a long range sniper purpose, and they nerfed it's accuracy among other things. They could have just nerfed it's damage output, leaving accuracy alone, to create more of a balance and just make it a less powerful sniper. By nerfing accuracy it can no longer fill the sniper purpose.

If balance doesn't really matter until the game is done, then why should they bother nerfing ships at all? Just let them be, and worry about balancing it all out later. Seems like there'd be alot less drama and grief.
Balance isn't their focus with this change, it was simply to try a different approach. The initial and post-adjusted PTU Ion was the most powerful ship in the game. People do play SC PU and as someone who does, I can say Ions were overpowered in all situations. I think they nerfed Ion specifically to avoid issues with events being over so quickly and the complaints coming from the people who weren't flying it. Either way this went down, someone was going to end up being unhappy.
 

KuruptU4Fun

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I think this particular discussion popped up because the Ion was marketed as filling a long range sniper purpose, and they nerfed it's accuracy among other things.
What people aren't quite catching onto is that there are no real cap ships in the game to snipe. You can't modify a ship/ ship weapon against something that isn't in the game outside events like Xeno. That being the case, CIG should have done the right thing and shelved the ship until re-introducing that event or creating one of equal scale. They claim they've shelved releases of ships before due to the lack of emergent gameplay to avoid issues like this.
 

Cugino83

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I think they pop up because people are playing the game and aren't happy with the current state of ships they'd like to fly.

If a ship is "balanced" in a way they don't believe is correct right now, it's understandable that they're concerned that this is how CIG envisions the ship to perform in the future.

Still a long ways out so I understand your point but it is what it is.
True, a good way to balance it without trowing in the bin the tentire concept of a sniper ship will be to slow down the energy "projectile", that way the base concept of the ship would be preserved, but hitting smaller craft would result much more difficult, especially becouse target's pilot will have the time for dodging the incoming shot, something that largeer ship wont be able to do.

What people aren't quite catching onto is that there are no real cap ships in the game to snipe. You can't modify a ship/ ship weapon against something that isn't in the game outside events like Xeno. That being the case, CIG should have done the right thing and shelved the ship until re-introducing that event or creating one of equal scale. They claim they've shelved releases of ships before due to the lack of emergent gameplay to avoid issues like this.
That is a good point, the Ares series should never be put on sla in the current state of the game, at least not the Ion since there is no real use of this kind of fighter right now, other then hunting smaller craft that will be one-hotted, rightfully if you ask me.
I honetly feel the same for the A2 too since there isn't at the moment no purpose for a large bomb dropper like that. Bomb gameplay should be implemented as an additional weapons choice for the missiles hardpont in size 1-4, so they'll be able to test the feature without introducing a flat killer like the A2.... but seams CIG sometimes do non-sensething like that.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Sort of, it would disperse slightly over the range of its shot so if it was within 1km, no it would not disperse at all, but 1.5km to 3km it would start to spread out but not very much compared to a Scatter Gun and it would keep its long range.

Consider the Starfarer: It is 23.5m tall.
Consider the Arrow: It is 4 meters tall.

If the shot leaves the Ion being, lets say 15cm across, at 3km it only has to be 20 meters across to only hit the arrow with less than 25% force while still hitting the Starfarer with the full 100% force.
Additional thought on this in regard to comparing to Scatter Guns:

Scatter Guns have individual pellets each with a small amount of damage which scatter randomly with space between each pellet. If you can get all the pellets to hit the same target its one big slap as there are so many of them but if they spread out too much before hitting the target some miss and it's a much smaller damage delivered.

In my thinking for the Ion weapon, there would be no gaps between the damage deliverers, so calling it "Spread" isn't quite right - where there are gaps between the pellets of a scatter gun there wouldn't be on a long range spreading energy weapon. If you imagine the scatter gun pellets not spreading but staying next to each other and growing as they fly forward (retaining the same damage despite being bigger) that's sort of what I am envisioning.

To draw a picture:

Imagine this 10x10 grid is a cross section of the Ion weapons bolt/beam, with each box of the grid counting for 1 damage amounting to a total of 100 damage (to put a number on it, not actual numbers)

1641591256580.png


If the beam/bolt is only 1 meter wide, it will hit with all 100 points of damage the round has, as imagined in the below mock-ups, no matter the size of the ship - the ships are always large enough to catch the whole hit of all 100 points of damage:

(not to scale) damage grid 1 meter across
1641592015483.png


(not to scale) damage grid 1 meter across
1641592288776.png


If the above Starfarer has 300 health points and the arrow only 50 health points, the Arrow is one-shot and the Starfarer is only two more hits behind.

But lets now stretch that damage field to 20 meters wide as in my previous example with the spread of the weapon from 3km - the Starfarer is large enough to still catch all 100 damage points, but the Arrow is now missed by most of the damage points:

(about to scale) damage grid 20 meters across
1641592505331.png


(about to scale) damage grid 20 meters across
1641593054461.png


Although the grid is wider and the boxes bigger they still count for 1 damage each so the above Starfarer has been hit with the intended 100 per shot Cap Ship Killer punch of the Ion, but the Arrow has taken only 32 points of damage. It's still a reasonable hit at this angle for the fighter, but it's not a one-shot, its a survivable alpha strike which the Arrow pilot can then react to using the light fighters capabilities to their advantage to defend themselves. EDIT - Also, as the 3km shot is spread over the whole of the light fighter hull, each component takes less damage to its health pool too. Look at the Arrow above, the cockpit is only taking 6 damage, the wing only 4 damage. Not only would it be hit for less total damage, It would also be much more reasonably spread out leading to a survivable amount of damage taken at range. A large ship like the Starfarer would receive much more damage in the 40's to 60's per component because they are just so much larger. The nearer the Arrow got to the Ion, the more damage the Ion could pin to an individual component upping the chance of a one-shot in close quarters to a certainty if only the Ion pilot could hit the Arrow. - EDIT

Hope the above makes sense, this is how I reckon the Ion can be reverted back to its original Might against large ships while losing the Light Fighter one-shot ability but still able to deal damage to those little ships on a more reasonable scale at distance. It keeps the damage in scale to the intended big ship targets.

As it's spread over distance the closer the Arrow gets to the Ion the thinner that grid will be and the more damage will hit the light fighter as long as the shot is still on target, so it doesn't leave the Ion vulnerable by any means but gives the Arrow pilot a chance to counter it without being wiped off the map before they know what's happening.

Balanced keeping the ability to assault Cap and large ships from a distance while not being able to one-shot a light fighter from a distance? Sounds like it :)
 
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White Lando

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One prediction I'll make: When the F8 is released, the light fighter pilots will cry for a nerf but CIG won't be so fast to nerf its balls off since it's the actual poster boy of the game. They'll finally have to improve instead of getting their way.

The lineup of heavy fighters are starting to come into the game. Light fighters will still be viable in the hands of the truly elite pilots (as it should be) but the larger ships will stop getting nerfed because the sub par pilots are getting owned.

Just what I see happening, anyway.
 

BUTUZ

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Heres TEST's response to the DEVS response to the TEST video's resonse to teh NERF BAT

1641599249348.png
 

stockish

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One prediction I'll make: When the F8 is released, the light fighter pilots will cry for a nerf but CIG won't be so fast to nerf its balls off since it's the actual poster boy of the game. They'll finally have to improve instead of getting their way.

The lineup of heavy fighters are starting to come into the game. Light fighters will still be viable in the hands of the truly elite pilots (as it should be) but the larger ships will stop getting nerfed because the sub par pilots are getting owned.

Just what I see happening, anyway.

Yep, this is why I don't call the Ares a fighter as it was never truly meant to be one but marketing be damned. Sure it is meant for large or capital ship engagement, but if I get a lucky hit on a small craft and severely damage or destroy it, then why should I be punished? I am in total agreeance with reducing its agility more so than its damage output this much, as I work up the chain of bounties now I have to wonder if I should use an Ares or look for an alternative that fits my play style, and gosh darn it I want space BRRRRRRRT and PEW PEW PEW!

I mean, did the Rebel Alliance cry this much when the planet destroying space laser hit a Mon Calamari cruiser? NO! They got good and found a way to beat the machine!
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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I've pooped my idea on to Spectrum in a more concise manner but the same images:


I wonder how they are going to balance it all in the end? Perhaps the Heavies will just Tank it, I'm aware without Armour in yet we can't just assume a heavy won't be able to take a kicking from a Light for a decent amount of time giving it the chance to escape?
 

Raven_King

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Not sure why these balance discussions keep popping up. The game isn't close to being done.
Discussions about balance are healthy when they’re respectful and informed, as they can help us find a consensus view to feed back to CIG to inform their balance choices. That‘s part of getting the game ‘done’. Maybe we do it a bit too much here, but that’s probably just because it’s interesting.

slow down the energy "projectile"
This. Why not restore the gun‘s accuracy and slow rate of fire, then substantially reduce the projectile’s speed and reduce the Ares’ pitch and yaw rates too (did they already do that?). Wouldn’t that make it worse at dogfighting, but still fine for sniping unsuspecting NPCs and players who didn’t realise they were under attack, and keep the satisfying feel of the ship? In that case, players who keep a constant turn, corkscrew or basically fly a smooth arc are still quite hittable, but those who manoeuvre by dodging and varying their speed should be very hard to hit with the canon. Almost any fighter - not just light ones - should know to evade the canon’s fire while closing range, then try to orbit the Ares, and keep it from extending away. It’s not crazy fast so it should struggle in a dogfight.
 
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White Lando

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Discussions about balance are healthy when they’re respectful and informed, as they can help us find a consensus view to feed back to CIG to inform their balance choices. That‘s part of getting the game ‘done’. Maybe we do it a bit too much here, but that’s probably just because it’s interesting.


This. Why not restore the gun‘s accuracy and slow rate of fire, then substantially reduce the projectile’s speed and reduce the Ares’ pitch and yaw rates too (did they already do that?). Wouldn’t that make it worse at dogfighting, but still fine for sniping unsuspecting NPCs and players who didn’t realise they were under attack, and keep the satisfying feel of the ship? In that case, players who keep a constant turn, corkscrew or basically fly a smooth arc are still quite hittable, but those who manoeuvre by dodging and varying their speed should be very hard to hit with the canon. Almost any fighter - not just light ones - should know to evade the canon’s fire while closing range, then try to orbit the Ares, and keep it from extending away. It’s not crazy fast so it should struggle in a dogfight.
Wasn't it (and still is) 700 m/s?

That's already slow and a big reason why most players are using laser repeaters @1400 m/s for combat right now (except for S5 where the laser cannon has something absurd like 73% more damage than the laser repeater).

The only time you're hitting a fighter with a laser cannon is when they maintain the same course for too long (and that's if you can keep them in front of you). If they're flying like that against a S7, they should get exploded and learn to focus on their position and flight in the future.
 

Raven_King

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Yep, Erkul says it’s 700 m/s now, I don’t know if it was the same in 3.15, could very well have been. It is slow. But if it was OP against fighters in 3.15 - and that seems to have been the issue - it could be made slower still… how about 600, or even 500 m/s?

I completely agree about the rest. And I’m no ace so if someone can explain why we think ace pilots complained about the ion, I’m all ears. Or eyes. You know. If you’re good and your Arrow/Gladius takes a hit from a 3.15 Ares Ion and explodes, what went wrong there?
 

White Lando

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Yep, Erkul says it’s 700 m/s now, I don’t know if it was the same in 3.15, could very well have been. It is slow. But if it was OP against fighters in 3.15 - and that seems to have been the issue - it could be made slower still… how about 600, or even 500 m/s?

I completely agree about the rest. And I’m no ace so if someone can explain why we think ace pilots complained about the ion, I’m all ears. Or eyes. You know. If you’re good and your Arrow/Gladius takes a hit from a 3.15 Ares Ion and explodes, what went wrong there?
Pretty sure it was always 700 m/s. It was something like 48 rpm fire rate.

Has there been a weapon that was 600 m/s or slower? I'd be concerned about the pips.

You can hit a point of absurdity where a laser projectile is WAY slower than the slowest ship's top speed. Where's the line?

I'm not the best pilot by any means but the few times I tangled with an Ion I didn't feel like it was unfair when it hit me. I stuck with a flight path too long (too focused on hitting them instead of maneuvering). It was my fault. When my flying was on point the Ion was helpless.

The times I flew an Ion against a fighter was the same result. If they didn't keep maneuvering they were dead. If they did their job, I was a sitting duck if I didn't disengage.

Even a guy in a Hornet was giving me the business. After I disengaged he was careful to keep his pip moving when he'd close the distance again. It was frustrating (as it should be).

The battles with light fighters felt balanced to me. Pilots that made mistakes got exploded, pilots that flew well won out. That's how a dog fight should be.
 

Sirus7264

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*************** NEWS FLASH ******************
Here are todays balanced news about balance
************************************************
First out..
You can not write one good reason that hold up,
why balance in a game is not waste of time.

BUT you can easy write a 1000 reason why balance is a waste of time..

Lets hear what the field have to say?

Field reporter BalaBalance is saying:
Balancing in game is BULL SHIT, cause it is never gonna be balanced...
Why?!
Ace pilots/players will always keep practice until even a smallest to biggest is OP in their hands..
AND
YOU CAN'T BALANCE SKILL....
😱 👀

Lets hear from our corespondent in Japan:
********************** 検閲された言葉。***************************
********************** 検閲された言葉。 ***************************
********************** 検閲された言葉。 ***************************
********************** 検閲された言葉。 ***************************
********************** 検閲された言葉。 ***************************
LIFE IS NOT BALANCED so get the F**K over it.

Okay.. - moving on to planet news...
Like a planet only have one city not even small towns serious....!?!?
How about make some (outpost) more like small towns which is how human populate,
we spread like cockroaches... where is the focus on that..
oh I know making a town/city in game don't involve killing or blowing shit up...


So how does that fit in?
Balance... LMAO... balance yeah it's nice word to hide behind.. but serious..
WHO IS THE FOOL?
THE FOOL!
OR THE FOOL WHO FOLLOWS?
🤪🤣👀

Thank you now back to the studio...!

Personally I don't care either way I adapt.
Then move on and learn the new way...
And tomorrow?... well.... I do it all over again....
🙄...Great. 🤭

Thank you for flying with 316 Alpha,
Please remain seated until we are at a full stop.
have a nice day....


CHEERS! 🍻 🤪 :like: 👀 🤣🤣🤣
This had me rolling
 

Sirus7264

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[Theorycrafting=]

For big lazer canon designed for taking out big targets, a potential balanced solution is having the beam/bolt spread the further it gets from the ship shooting it.

To explain:

Problem - S7 sniper one-shotting light fighters from 3km away.
Answer - Have the beam/bolt spread so the delivered energy to a LARGE target would remain high as the spread would all still all hit the large target, but a SMALL target would take a smaller hit as the energy in the spread is not not all hitting them...

Not sure I have explained that... Let me draw a picture...

The issue:
View attachment 22274

A solution:
View attachment 22276

Spread over distance from a Sniper Energy Weapon can protect a smaller target from an S7 while still delivering the full damage to the larger target. We have something very much like this for Scatter Guns but on a much smaller distance scale.

We can have our cake and eat it too, as the closer the light fighter gets to the Ion the more likely the Ion is to one-shot it so closing distance is still risky but the Ion can still snipe it from distance it's just a longer time to kill. No need to mess with fire rates, no need to mess with accuracy. The Ion still hits, it still does perceptible damage, just less of it at distance.

[/Theorycrafting]

View attachment 22278

That's the 'BobFace solution straight from the desks of TWRL! Someone call Mr. Roberts!
problem is lazers don't work in this type of way.
 
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